Does anyone know of a list of replacements for English prepositions that are idiomatic:

ex:

I'm talking about X/ Táim a' rá faoi X

about = faoi

I'd say some are too contextual for this, but yeh

Is this what you're looking for?

Christian Brothers, New Irish Grammar (Dublin: C.J. Fallon, 1994) p. 83.

This is a full page chart listing 16 prepositions from ag to um with their prepositional pronoun variations and the usual English translations which suggest the probable contextual usage. Of course the context sometimes isn't literal. I'm still having to stop myself from thinking "I'm going on school" when I see "Táim ag dul ar scoil."

Bain sult as ...

An bhfuil anseo duit , a BRN?

<http://www.irishpage.com/quiz/preppron.htm>

Táim ag labhairt faoi X - I'm talking about X
Táim ag caint faoi X - I'm talking about X
ach
Táim ag rá faoi X - "I'm saying about X"

This might be splitting hairs, but doesn't labhairt mean "speaking" and caint means "talking?"

quote:

This might be splitting hairs, but doesn't labhairt mean "speaking" and caint means "talking?"

Even if it did... what difference does it make? There's no difference between "speak" and "talk" other than that the former is used more by posh people.

...actually I suppose there is a tiny difference in the likes of:

-What are Brian and Jane doing in there?
-Talking.

If the answer were "speaking", it would sort of imply that they were giving a speech to a crowd, rather than just talking to each other.

Other than that though there's not much diff...

Irish has three different words for speaking, talking and saying, labhairt, cainte, agus rá.

By the way, it doesn't mean someone is posh simply because they've learned to speak (or is that talk, or is that say?) according to a particular standard. Yeah, yeah, I know there are those creative types who can't conjugate simple verbs and use such cool words as "ain't" etc.

In your posting above, you first indicate that there are no differences between the two words, but then give some good examples of how there are differences. Gee, I must say..., or would that be I must speak.... or would that be I must talk you're catching on - maith thú!

Padraig,
hat I mean is like in the book "A study of Irish Prepositions" by GM Cussen (which for all you Munster lovers is nice and archaic, and examples are all in sean-chló!) where it shows you how to use the prepositons naturally.

What I am looking for is a chart that outlines where best to use a prep in Irish in comparision to a phrase in English so you dont mix them up and do a Béaralachas. In essence it would be a help for error detection. Cusses's book is good, but it is not a look up chart.

Might have to make this myself!

I understand. Let us all know if you find such a resource. I could sure use it.

quote:

Yeah, yeah, I know there are those creative types who can't conjugate simple verbs and use such cool words as "ain't" etc.

I'm sure "áin't" is run of the mill to those who speak the dialects which contain it. As for these verbs they can't conjugate; of which verbs do you speak?

quote:

In your posting above, you first indicate that there are no differences between the two words, but then give some good examples of how there are differences.

The differences aren't inherent in the words themselves, but rather a product of how people have habitually used them. Some people might just say "speak" all the time, while others might just say "talk" all the time. The way I myself speak though, having grown up in Dublin in Ireland speaking what I suppose is a Middle-Class dialect, I use different words in different contexts even though they mean the same thing -- but this leads to me making presumptions about other people's usages of these words, making presumptions about the context. The two people I mentioned in my last post could very well have just been talking to each other when the speaker used the word "speak", and my presumption that they were speaking to an audience would have been inaccurate. That's the thing with presumptions.

quote:

Gee, I must say..., or would that be I must speak.... or would that be I must talk you're catching on - maith thú!

I don't think so... I can't remember the last time I agreed with something you said. You tend to stand on the sidelines oblivious to the fact that you're just another person who speaks just another dialect of just another mother tongue. There's more than one way to communicate in a given language, usually dependant upon:

a) The region from which the speaker originates
b) The socio-economic class into which the speaker falls

And then there are other factors such as:

c) The speaker's cousin from New Zealand came to visit every Friday and spoke to him for a while
d) They watched 15 hours of American television a day

And of course, there's everyone's own personal quirks. For instance I've found myself pronouncing the verb "radiate" with a flat A sound in the first syllable because that's how I pronounce "radiatior"... took me a while though to realise that I was the only one doing it. Fuck it though it's my way of speaking and I'm happy with it.

You might open your eyes when you realise that "ain't" is no more normal or less normal than "isn't". Instead of imagining two circles side by side where one of them is significantly larger than the other, imagine two equi-sized circles side by side. These are the dialects. You only think one of them is bigger because a load of posh bastards got together and decided to make a standard out of them. But no amount of standarisation will detract from the nobility of any given dialect.

I once had an English teacher who drew a ring around my usage of the word "ain't" in an essay -- if I could see him today I'd slap him.

quote:

I once had an English teacher who drew a ring around my usage of the word "ain't" in an essay -- if I could see him today I'd slap him.

If I were an English teacher I would also draw a ring around any student who wrote the word "ain't" in an essay. That's why we have teachers - to teach us and correct our mistakes. By the way, if he later slapped me, I'd have him expelled if he were still in school, or arrested if he somehow managed to have already been graduated.

quote:

If I were an English teacher I would also draw a ring around any student who wrote the word "ain't" in an essay. That's why we have teachers - to teach us and correct our mistakes.

Are you really that naive?! Have you ever been on holiday, ever been to a place where they speak a little different to you?

Tell me why "ain't" is a mistake, or how it is wrong, or how it is whatever you claim it to be. I'd be interested in having this debate with you, because I think it's only through this means that you'll open your eyes and see the big picture.

While you're at it, I'd like to see if you've any critique to give of the following sentence:

There's six men in the sitting room.

Seems if something is insignificant, there's little reason to argue how insignificant it is.

quote:

Are you really that naive?!

You have a propensity to bash whomever and whoever you want to, be it Americans, people with different names ("Ugly Americanisms"), Catholics, and now your latest vitriol is directed at those who speak standard English, "posh bastards" as you would call them. Your demeanor is often rude and should not be tolerated.

I'm very aware of the different ways people speak, talk, and say things, and have no interest in discussing the subject with you.

quote:

There's six men in the sitting room.

4th or 5th grade primary-school children could easily pick out the error - ask one of them.

Seems to me I've heard this song before.

quote:

You have a propensity to bash whomever and whoever you want to, be it Americans, people with different names ("Ugly Americanisms"), Catholics, and now your latest vitriol is directed at those who speak standard English, "posh bastards" as you would call them. Your demeanor is often rude and should not be tolerated.

Free Speech. I believe you feel offended because I'm consistently attacking your reasoning.

quote:

I'm very aware of the different ways people speak, talk, and say things, and have no interest in discussing the subject with you.

You are blissfully unaware of the different ways people speak. Your labeling of "ain't" as a mistake is poignant evidence of this.

quote:

"There's six men in the sitting room."

4th or 5th grade primary-school children could easily pick out the error - ask one of them.

Okey dokes, so can I assume that your reasoning is based upon a grammar book which says that "are" must be used rather than "is" when the plural is concerned? Consider that the person who spoke that sentence is:

a) A native speaker of English.
b) Not mentally impaired -- if anything the speaker is more intelligent than the vast majority of people.

How, then, could it possibly be wrong? Furthermore how could it possibly be wrong if the construction is used by 99% of people in a given geographical area?

How or why do you place a grammar book above actual spoken language? There's no such thing as grammar. Grammar is a figment of a grammarian's imagination. Grammar is reverse-engineering of a language, an attempt to find patterns. It's a tool for learners to pick up a language more quickly, but it has its flaws and it breaks down in places. The labeling of "there's" for the plural as a mistake is one such failure of the grammar system to which you seem to subscribe.

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on May 13, 2007)

Dúirt Pádraig

quote:

Seems to me I've heard this song before.

I'd appreciate if you gave input rather than narrating the debate.

Polite and ....

Caoimhín

Dear friends,

I've been surfing on your site practically everyday for one or two months .
Maybe you can remember me : I am a "frenchy" whose mother was Irish and I intend to refresh my memory with the little Irish my mother used to "speak" /"talk" to me . I then work my Irish every evening and I intended to become a member of your site in a little while when I know Irish better . BUT, as we "say / talk/ tell" in french, I am a bit "rafraîchi" by your behaviour and the lack of courtesy of some members ; "rafraîchi" means that I get cold ... Please, just tell me it's just a game of words and not real rudeness.
yours , Jean

Oh sorry, let us shape our exchanges around your requirements. We're having a debate here, and the only person who has sparked controversey is the person who is interrupting and postponing the debate in order to have a moan.

This debate would have gone on much longer, and would not have been interrupted, if one party didn't shift the focus away from the debate toward how they "take offence" from the attack against their reasoning.

If you don't like debates, then just steer clear of this thread.