Who'd like to join my Mongrel psuedo-Irish Condemnation Program? Basically we're gonna be a consortium that gives abuse to people and parties which use mongrel psuedo-Irish. My first target is the radio station, Spin1038, which has a psuedo-Irish music show called "Top Fourty Oifigiúil na hÉireann" which repeatly uses the English word "re-entry" throughout the show.

That crap is now syndicated out to many other stations around the country.

It makes me ill to hear it; I also recall myself and others been abused here for attacking it!

quote:

I also recall myself and others been abused here for attacking it!

Friends of the enemy and those who condone the enemy are also the enemy.

De Bhaildraithe's English-Irish Dictionary has two re-entries for re-entry, athiontráil and athdhul isteach. Would either of these words be acceptable to the director(s) of the Mongrel Psuedo-Irish Condemnation Program as a proper representation for re-entry? I'm asking because I see that the latter word contains "dhul" which may not be acceptable since it appears to be related to the verbal noun "dul" which has been pointed out by some that it is not used in any true Irish dialect.

(Message edited by Mac_léinn on April 11, 2007)

the verbal noun "dul" which has been pointed out by some that it is not used in any true Irish dialect.

Ní dúradh ná a leithéid.

The Irish language hasn't got a verb that means "go in" (ie. enter), so we simply say "téigh isteach", but since that's cumbersome and ambiguous for some contexts, people came up with "iontráil". I would translate re-entry (in terms of a music single re-entering the charts) as "athiontráil". Sure they even use "iontráil" for "entry" everywhere else in the program.

I took the opportunity to e-mail Dáithí O'Daibhin, the host of Spin 1038's Top 40 music program, to inform him that certain folks take exception to his use of the word re-entry, and prefer to have him use the word athiontráil instead. I'll be sure to post any response that I receive from him regarding this issue.

I wonder if taking a more polite and courteous approach to the situation may have a more postive effect than condemnation and abuse would have. Mr. O'Daibhin's program does sound interesting in that he makes the effort to use simple and easy-to-understand Irish in his program. His program can be heard at 5:45 p.m. (Irish time) on Sundays at http://www.spin1038.com

Of course a polite approach would be a lot more constructive, some people don't do constructive though..

Aye, it's on lmfm (louth meath fm) and i've heard it on 3 or 4 other local stations too..

I must disagree though, i think it's quite positive - modern, serves the target audience well and attracts plenty of people who don't speak Irish usually and in that sense benefits the language..
I know his Gaeilge leaves a lot to be desired (the lack of "atá", it's always "a bhfuil" really gets me) but if we didn't have this we'd be complaining about the lack of irish language programmes in the english language media..

A Dhomhnaill, I think you've made an excellent point above that this radio program will help spread the use of the Irish language. My following remark has nothing to do with you a Dhomhnaill or your remarks, but I find it interesting how certain individuals will claim that nobody who knows how to express herself or himself speaks the "Queen's English," (perfect English) but when it comes to the Irish language these same individuals are quick to abuse and condemn those who have less than perfect Irish.

Tá sé fimíneach, nach bhfuil?

quote:

I find it interesting how certain individuals will claim that nobody who knows how to express herself or himself speaks the "Queen's English," (perfect English) but when it comes to the Irish language these same individuals are quick to abuse and condemn those who have less than perfect Irish.

There's no such thing as "perfect English" or "perfect German" or "perfect French" -- there are only dialects. In some dialects, people say "Who'd you get that off?", while in others they say, "From whom did you get that?". It's been said before that a language is nothing more than a dialect that has an army, and it's abundantly true. "Perfect English", as you call it, or the Queen's English, is very much non-existant. Those who (claim to) speak it watch over every word and pronunciation maticulously, thus detracting from the expressiveness of their speech. A good example of this is pronouncing pronouns the same way even if they're stressed (i.e. ya Vs you). Casual, uncensored language is far more expressive.

Just as with English, there are dialects in Irish. Some dialects say "Ní tháinig" while others say "Níor tháinig". There's a difference between "alternate forms which are spoken in different areas or among different social classes" and "mistakes". For instance, the following two sentences have mistakes:

When did you did it?
Tá sé ar an buachaill.

The following sentence may not be a mistake though depending on the dialect:

You was watching him.

How to you distinguish a mistake form an alternate form... well if it makes you eyebrown raise and makes you look funny at the speaker, then it's weird and can be considered a mistake.

I have to say, given the amount of time FnamB has spent on grammar learning and usage of the tongue, it is not surprising that rampant errors should be called as such.

Remember, the errors are errors as they are been generated by non-native speakers, i.e. learners. English is a language where you will be savaged for been too different, yet the same people will often have a very laisse faire atitute to foreign languages.

Since most errors in Gaelic are down to a) influence from English, and b) lack of exposure to Gaelic, we can be confident such errors are often particular to the individual but share features with other native English speaking learners in a way that (i suspect and others who know say) diverges from that expected between native Gaelic speakers.

In other words, what passes for Gaelic is no like the real thing.

Laziness is a lot of it. Been bad at learning is another. Been Anglo Saxon is handicap. That Gaelic is nearly defunct means it lack that gleam of cache that comes from cultural and economic power.

Myself, despite having made my own distillation of grammar that is almost as detailed as Lars on nuleargais, still have a long long way to go. If people get comfortable too quick, well..."shocka nua ar Westlife, If-if-ifgiwuil na hairann top fortee" and so on will be the result

Oh......I'm finally catching on! When I first read this thread, I thought that Fear et al were serious about abusing and condemning those that speak or write less-than-perfect Irish. But after reading the latest postings above, which are riddled with errors, mistakes, and "dialectical" differences using the English language, I now realize that you're forming a comedy act. Beidh sé an-ghreannmhar! (That will be very funny!)

The minute you guys start "condemning" and "abusing" others for mistakes in their Irish, while doing it with the way you write and speak in English, you'll bring the whole house down in laughter. I wish the both of you success. Go n-éirí an t-adh libh!

But you might need a better title for your program - how about something like:

Ya Ain't Speakin' No Good Irish

B'fhearr leat Gaeilc phláistís? Mar shampla: "mé caint Gaeilge" (I'm speaking Irish) nó "is mishah 'awn'airahnak mar kooplah fokil awgawm" i gcoinne Gaeilge dhuchais? Rug mé le Béarla, so, níl sé briste ach Hiberno English.

Mura maith leat mo Bhéarla, níl ach aon fhocal duit: 'cruaidh!'

There's an organization known as SPELL, the Society for the Preservation of English Language and Literature at:

http://www.spellorg.com

Here's an excerpt from their website:

quote:

The Society for the Preservation of English Language and Literature (SPELL) is an organization of people who love our language and are determined to resist its abuse and misuse in the news media and elsewhere. We have almost 2,000 members in the United States and Canada. Members are from all professions and all walks of life -- doctors, lawyers, executives, engineers, teachers, writers, secretaries, students, retired people. The list could go on.

SPELL members use our well- known Goof Cards to cite errors in grammar, usage, and syntax. The use of Goof Cards is not mean-spirited, sarcastic, or "school-marmish." Many who receive them write to thank SPELL for helping to uphold high standards.

Maybe the director(s) of the MPICP (Mongrel Pseudo Irish Condemnation Program) would consider changing the name to SPILL (Society for the Preservation of Irish Literature and Language) or some other easy-to-remember mnemonic. But anyway, as mentioned in the excerpt above, the SPELL organization sends out goof cards, which seems to be a humorous and more polite way than condemning and abusing people for their mistakes. Making mistakes is part of life, and people like Mr. Ó Daibhín are doing a heck of a lot more to promote the Irish language than those who sit of the sidelines waiting to bash him and others the minute they make a mistake in their spoken Irish.

Is fearr Gaeilge bhriste, ná Béarla cliste

Negotiation at the tip of a spear, I say!

"Ó Daibhín are doing a heck of a lot more to promote the Irish language than those who sit of the sidelines waiting to bash him and others the minute they make a mistake in their spoken Irish."

Before we go any further, in no post was I been impolite to you personally, a Mhic; nor was the last post rude. It's hard to get the tone right, and as I hate smiley things (apart from the yellow Daltaí head) I cannot get been a bit cheek across right. I was only practicing my Gaelic, rather than using it as a shield to be rude, as some people do sometimes. So, please don't get the wrong idea.

I'm just for balance, neither anything goes, nor rigidity. The top 40 show bucks it's own goat a bit too much for me, that's all.

quote:

The minute you guys start "condemning" and "abusing" others for mistakes in their Irish, while doing it with the way you write and speak in English, you'll bring the whole house down in laughter.

The following is not a mistake:

Agus an re-entry ó Avril Lavigne ag uimhir a seacht

, rather it's a mongrel mis-mash of Irish and English. Is that really the kind of "Irish" you want to speak?

quote:

Mr. Ó Daibhín are doing a heck of a lot more to promote the Irish language than those who sit of the sidelines waiting to bash him and others the minute they make a mistake in their spoken Irish.

He could be congratulated if he actually spoke Irish, but unfortunately I can't find "re-entry" in my Irish dictionary, let alone "top fourty".

Ath-chuairt= re-visit
ath-iontráil = re-enter