This may be a weird question to ask, but it's one that has been eating at me for a little while now...

I know what the fada is and what the fada does, but what I find curious is that Irish went with an acute accent mark, and Scottish went with the grave accent mark?

I was curious if there was someone here who has also asked this question before, or, might know something about it? For instance, are there historical reasons for this? Maybe spelling reform reasons? Or was it simply done to seperate the two languages?

Irish being the parent language of Scottish, I would have thought that Scottish would have followed Irish's example? Or was Scottish just being a rebellious child?

I like to compare Irish and Scottish texts side by side so I can see similarities and differences, but personally...and this is just my opinion...I think the grave accent causes written Scottish to appear less attractive to me. Maybe it is because I am more use to seeing the acute accent in other languages, but there is something with the grave accent that doesn't appeal to me. ;0(

IRISH

lá súil bád mór

SCOTTISH

là sùil bàta mòr


I am sure there are better examples I could have chosen, but these were the first to come to mind...so I went with it.

A Do Chinniuint,

It's a an acute observation on your part of what some may consider a grave difference between the languages (sorry couldn't help that one)..

Sometime ago, (a few months?) someone mentioned in a thread that the differences may have arisen due to different typesetting practices. That is, in the printing of books, manuscripts, etc., there were regional variations in available letters (acute versus grave) used in the printing presses.

Here's the thread I was referring to:

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/23593.html

See Dennis' remarks near the top.

(Message edited by Mac_léinn on March 14, 2007)

(Message edited by Mac_léinn on March 14, 2007)

Mac Léinn,

For some reason I can't access that thread by number...do you have the title or date of the thread?

And while I shall wait to read the thread, I still can't help but wonder how there could be such a lack of uniformity among the printers...even with a lack of available printing presses and characters, I can't understand how they never managed to overcome such a problem? Human beings have been making metal and wood dyes and punches for money for the past two thousand years or better...so it's not like they couldn't have done it. ;0(

I would think that given british society at the time of the printing press, any accent in French should have been available.

I'm inclined to agree about the aesthetic factor...I've felt that way about the grave accent ever since I was studying French in high school. The only reason I can think of is that as my eyes sweep from left to right they get "caught" on the oppositely facing marks.

Sort of the difference between the comfort of combing one's hair, vs sliding down a banister with the splinters pointing the wrong way.

Anyway, my $.02

Antaine,

I was thinking the exact same thing...I feel that writing a grave accent over a letter goes against the natural flow of a written language that goes from left to right.

I still have not had the chance to read the earlier thread on the topic, so I don't know what was talked about before, but I have a hard time accepting that they didn't have the means to print uniformly.

I just read a book (which probably doesn't help here) that said the majority of the printed word most likely came to England with the Norman-French migration and take-over. The time period matches the boom of printing presses and the regulation of government they brought would most likely have been a result of printed law being made available to more people.

When I was little, I went to the Iowa Living History Farms where they have created a small 1800's settlement/farm/indian camp where they still actually live and work like they did in the early 1800's. For those in the States who can visit it I highly recommend it. Anyway...we were taught that one of the most powerful people in the 1800's life were the printers, because they were they ones that controlled the information getting to the masses. In fact, we got to work the printers job from start to finish, from making the "strikers" (letters) out of metal which they did because the smiths didn't know how to do it, to the making of of the ink that was used. Then we learned how to arrange the letters and finally print off our stories.

It was really neat, but what stood out about that day was that we had some Spanish speaking children with us from another school and the printers had "strikers" for printing in the Spanish of the day which used the acute accent. If there were acute acented strikers in 1800's United States, there had to be some in Ireland and the UK. So, I find it amazing that they never thought to standardize it? I would think the similarities between Irish and Scottish languages during the 18th and 19th centuries would have been strong enough to cause some sentiment of conformity.

"...he majority of the printed word most likely came to England with the Norman-French migration and take-over. The time period matches the boom of printing presses and the regulation of government they brought would most likely have been a result of printed law being made available to more people."

Norman print presses -ah this is one of those alternative history sites.

I believe Gráinne Maol used to pilot a submarine, and Briain Borumha controlled the field via a PDF

quote:

I feel that writing a grave accent over a letter goes against the natural flow of a written language that goes from left to right.

Ní fhaca mé ach agúid riamh sna lámhscríbhinní. Never once a grave. Agus tá a lán acu feicthe agam.

BRN, don't be silly...Briain presented the battle plan for Cluain Tarbh via Powerpoint presentation.

PDFs...sheesh...

BRN...LOL :)

A great quote that I am hearing more and more these days thanks to the Discovery Channel's "Mythbusters" is when then man says:

"I reject your reality and substitute my own!"

Actually the book talks about how the printed materials that were spread throughout England in the 1600's and later into Scotland and Ireland were in French because the government wanted to unify the law codes throughout the kingdom.

And while I don't know much about this subject, I can see the possibility for it. The printing presses came out in the 1400's. France was using them by the 1500's. Normans from France took control of England in the 1000's but always held reltions, even when at war, with Normandy...

Stranger things have happened I suppose.All I know is that it still doesn't explain why Irish went one way and Scottish the other ;0(

And I just want to make sure I understood what Dennis wrote:

"Ní fhaca mé ach agúid riamh sna lámhscríbhinní. Never once a grave. Agus tá a lán acu feicthe agam."

I never saw but an acute in the manuscripts. Never once a grave. And I have seen a lot of them...???

quote:

"Ní fhaca mé ach agúid riamh sna lámhscríbhinní. Never once a grave. Agus tá a lán acu feicthe agam."

I never saw but an acute in the manuscripts. Never once a grave. And I have seen a lot of them...???

Ceart. Tá a lán LSS (= lámhscíbhinní) ar fáil ar líne ag ISOS.

A BRN agus Antaine, Ta sibh an greannmhar!

A DoChinniuint a chara, that place in Iowa sounds really fun. The only thing I did when in Iowa briefly was stay in Debuque and ride that little tram to the top of the hill.

Beir bua agus beannacht

The Scots until recently used BOTH, over 'o' anyway. Unless I'm mistaken, 'ó' was pronounced like our 'ó' and 'o\' (don't know how to get the grave accent) was like our 'á'.

They also used both acute and grave over 'e':

glé leis an 'é' céanna atá againn, agus

sèimh le 'e' atá cosúil leis an nguta in "eile" ach níos faide.

Do Chinniúint,

Sorry about the delay in getting back to you. Here's the link again.

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/23593.html

The original date of the thread is dated February 11th, 2007

A chairde,
Mar eolas daoibh.
The standardised use of a grave accent in Scots Gaelic derives from the orthographic conventions developed by the Scottish Examination Board for use in state exams in the language.
These spelling conventions have recently been revised by the Scottish Qualifications Authority - which replaced the old board in 1998.
The current conventions are available as a free download from : http://www.sqa.org.uk/sqa/7339.html if anyone is interested.
Slán beo!
Chris