I notice that the word "Nua" sometimes comes before the noun it modifies and other times after. For example "Nua Eabhrac" or "Nua Jersey." But some would write "Jersey Nua." So I'm wondering if it's a dialectical thing or just personal preference.

My question is actually directed towards the use of "nua" in Irish and it's native dialects as spoken in Ireland, since, regardless of Canúint Sasana Nua, I've already made up my mind that "nua" comes before the noun when speaking Canúint Nua Joisey.

Adjectives come after the noun almsot universally, except in what might be considered portmanteau words - Nua Ghaeilge, seanfhocal, ....

I don't know that there are any hard and fast rules.

Nua Eabhrac has been around along time,
as has

An Nua-Shéalainn
http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=new+zealand

An Nua-Ghuine

These are all proper nouns, which may have something to do with it.

It's not a universal rule, as a quick look here shows:

http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=new+

I've already made up my mind that "nua" comes before the noun when speaking Canúint Nua Joisey.

Baineann tú sult as contráilteacht.

quote:

portmanteau words - Nua Ghaeilge, seanfhocal, ....

Two problems there:

1) The adjective "sean" isn't free, like "nua", to sit behind its noun. When "sean" is used attributively ("old man", as opposed to "the man is old") it must always be prefixed to the noun:

seanfhear
seanteach
sean-am

2) A "portemanteau word" is more than just a compound -- it's compound of parts of two words: "smog" from "smoke + fog", "motel" from "motor + hotel".

quote:

Nua Eabhrac has been around along time

Correctly Nua-Eabhrac, with the hyphen, just as the others you quoted. When any adjective is placed before the noun in Irish, it automatically coheres to the noun and creates a compound. According to our current spelling, compounds are either written as one word ("nuabhearrtha" = freshly shaved) or as one word divided by a hyphen when that would be easier to read (nua-aoiseach, sean-am). And the first word lenites the second word whenever possible.

quote:

it automatically coheres to the noun and creates a compound.

Sin a bhí i gceist agam le portmanteau. Is léir go bhfuil lochtanna ar mo Bhéarla...

Mar sin, na fleiscín-fhocail abú!

Ceist eile: do we have any portemanteau words in Irish at all at all? Our answer to "smog" is just a simple compound: toitcheo ( toit + ceo).

Portemanteau word is said "mot-valise" in French :-) . It means a "suitcase word" :-) .

don't forget Jersey is also one of the Channel Islands, that has a name in Irish like York (Eabhrac)

Nua-Gheirseí

Pointe maith a Antaine. Níl mé contráilte ar bith.

Déarfaidh agus scríobhfaidh mé i{Nua-Gheirseí} agus Nua-Eabhrac Ach, céard faoi New England - Nua-Shasana? Bíonn sé/sí? i bhfad anseo, nach ea?

I googled on Nua-Shasana and found an article by Gaelport that refers to New England as Nua-Shasana. Here's the link: (unfortunately, can't get it to show properly as a hyperlink, but one can simply google on "Nua-Shasana" and get to it.

http://gaelport.com/index.php?page=directory&level=sub&id=12&start=0

Cé atá contráilte anois?

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 13, 2007)

quote:

Nua-Gheirseí

recte: Nua-Gheirsí

Maidir le focail phortemanteau i nGaeilge, rith an smaoineamh seo liom anois díreach: an cóimheascadh de "biscuit" agus an aidiacht "briosc" (brittle, crisp) é an focal "briosca"? Tá sé seo níos soiléire san fhocal Gàidhlig "briosgaid" (= briosca).

Ceist úsáid atá ann seachas ceist gramadaí. Tá "Sasana Nua" i bhfad níos coitianta ná "Nua-Shasana" dar liom - agus dar leis an Uasal Google freisin.

Dála an scéil, is breá liom tú ag baint úsáid as "céard." Beidh tú Conamaraithe ar fad gan mórán achair! (Is é "cad" a bheadh ag Muimhnigh mura bhfuil dul amú orm.)

Is am é Google-fight. (It's google-fight time!)
And it's a three-match event

Results:

12,300 for Sasana Nua versus 8 for Nua-Shasana.

232 for Geirsí Nua and 81 for Nua-Gheirsí

And the closest split-decision of the evening:

29,200 for Eabrac Nua and 29,100 for Nua Eabrac!

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 13, 2007)

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/portmanteau

Ní ann don e!

Is am é Google-fight atá ann

Nó

Tá sé in am do troid Ghoogle.

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22nua-eabhrac%22&word2=%2 2eabhrac+nua%22

rinne tú dearmad ar na thuascamóga, a Mhac.

Ní bhfuair "eabhrac nua" ach 22!

"Eabhrac" atá ceart...

Ar chuir tú na frásaí úd idir chomharthaí athfhriotail?

rinne tú dearmad ar na thuascamóga, a Mhac.

Focal nua dom! Táim faoi chomaoin agat, a Aonghuis.

cinntigh ar dtús é!

Tá an bhrón orm. Feicim mo dhearmad, Ní d'úsáid mé quotation marks nuair rinne mé na googlefights

Updated results, this time with the proper quotation marks in front of and behind the two-word opponents:

Sasana Nua: 191 Nua-Shasana: 7
Nua-Gheirsí: 81 Geirsí Nua: 0

So, the bad news is I'm not a good fight arranger. The good news is Nua-Gheirsí wins!

Ceist: for the word Geirsí or Gheirsí, is the last syllable pronounced as in sí (she?)

Scríobh Abigail: Dála an scéil, is breá liom tú ag baint úsáid as "céard." Beidh tú Conamaraithe ar fad gan mórán achair!

As siocair (that's because?) gur paiste Dhaltaí na Gaeilge i Nua-Gheirsí mé

(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 13, 2007)

Cé atá contráilte anois?

Tusa. Mar a thaispeáin tú dúinn le do Ghooglefight.
Ná bí ró-ghlic, a Mhic.

Ná bí ró-ghlic, a Mhic.

Ná bí ro-lochtaitheach, a Chionaoidh. Tá tú béas a dhéanamh de sin.

quote:

Cé atá contráilte anois?

Mise, faraor!

comharthaí athfhriotail	quotation marks
uaschamóg	apostrophe
thuaschamóga	ní ann dóibh - botún!

Níor chuala mé "socair go" cheana. An focal Muimhneach é?

Seo iad na gnáthbhealaigh a bheadh agam chun "Because I am ..." a chur in iúl (leis an mbriathar "tá"):
mar tá mé ...
mar go bhfuil mé ...
toisc go bhfuil mé ...
mar gheall go bhfuil mé...
de réir go bhfuil mé...
óir tá mé ... (beagán ardnósach, b'fhéidir)

siocair, Focal Ultach atá ann, go bhfios dom

siocair [ainmfhocal firinscneach]
cúis, ócáid (siocair pheaca; cad é is siocair leis?); leithscéal (níl uaidh ach an tsiocair; an tsiocair scine seo).

Is bolg gé é botún freisin.

Ná bí ro-lochtaitheach, a Chionaoidh. Tá tú béas a dhéanamh de sin.

Ní dhearna mé ach ráiteas: "Baineann tú sult as contráileacht". Ansin, fuair tú "Nua-Shasana" amach as do thiarach mar fear cliste, agus thit tú ar d'aghaidh le do Ghooglefight féin.

Ná bí ró-ghlic, a mhic.

GRMA a Abigail. I was looking for a "because" form that would go with the copula. Could I write "mar gur" or something like that?

Cinnte. Sin nó "toisc gur" nó pé ar bith acu is fearr leat.

Ach cloígh le "siocair" - beidh meascán deas na gcanúintí agat mar sin, agus tabharfaimid "Mac Léinn na bPróca Leáite" mar leasainm ort.

Scríobh Cionaodh: thit tú ar d'aghaidh le do Ghooglefight féin.

Conas deirtear "so what?" I think we call it the "learning process."

Scríobh tú Ní dhearna mé ach ráiteas. If we apply the same logic that you're applying to me, one could say that with "your statement" thit tú fein ar d'aghaidh freisin. Your statement came first, and I don't have any problem with it. We're discussing and expanding on a point about the Irish language. A Chionaoidh, I always enjoy your humor and your sharing or your knowledge of the Irish language, but please refrain from taking on a parent-child role, le do thoil.

Sheol Cionaodh go dtí do sheomra thú?

Think I missed something. :)

If we apply the same logic that you're applying to me, one could say that with "your statement" thit tú fein ar d'aghaidh freisin.

How, a Mhic? I never said Nua-Gheirsí was wrong, did I? I've only ever referred to your "dialect" with the firmly-tongue-in-cheek terminology of "Joisey Nua". Sin é.

Your statement came first, and I don't have any problem with it.

You obviously did -- why else pull a rare & peculiar phrase like "Nua-Shasana" out of your hat to try to prove some sort of point?

but please refrain from taking on a parent-child role, le do thoil.

I have used "a Mhic" as a form of shorthand with you, but if you find it patronising, I'll desist.

A Chionaodh, I don't have any problem with "a Mhic." I would have thought that of all people, you would have known that, since you're the only one that ever got away with calling me "late for dinner."

You obviously did -- why else pull a rare & peculiar phrase like "Nua-Shasana" out of your hat to try to prove some sort of point?

I wasn't trying to pull a rare & peculiar phrase out of my hat. Is mac léinn mé agus tá mé ag iarriadh a fhoghlaim. When I started this thread, I initially referred to your neck of the woods as Sasana Nua, as I thought it was correct. Then, after getting some education from some of our more learned posters, I got to thinking that since New England has been around for a while, (Mayflower, etc.) that maybe the Irish had called it Nua Shasana as with many other places being prefixed with Nua. That's all.

As you know, I'm the adventurous type, (Shawneen, etc), and I didn't mean harm with this latest round of exploration. But obviously, it came across that way and I apologize. I'll use more smileys in the future so it's clear that I'm not trying to prove a point. Is innealtóir mé and I'm very used to exploring, discussing, and looking at things from all different angles with malice towards none, even though it may appear "contrailte" at times.

Le meas,

Déanach ag Dinnéar, aka Mac Léinn

Céard a thabharfá air in ionad sin, a Chionaoidh? Nílim ach caidéiseach, an dtuigeann tú.

(Message edited by Abigail on February 13, 2007)

with malice towards none, even though it may appear "contrailte" at times.

And my observation that you enjoy contrariness was also uttered without malice.

But I do believe it to be true, your protestations notwithstanding.

Céard a thabharfá air in ionad sin, a Chionaoidh? Nílim ach caidéiseach, an dtuigeann tú.

In ionad an mic nó Joisey Nua?

Ós rud é gur contrarion mise chomh maith:

Tá tú béas a dhéanamh de sin.

Tá béas á dhéanamh agat de sin

Nó

Tá nós á dhéanamh agat de sin

agus mar is eol do chách ní cheart sin:

Ná déan nós, agus ná bris nose

\Scríobh Abigail: ...Próca Leáite

Próca = jar, urn
Leáite = melted or molten?
Próca Leáite = Molten Pot? Ní thuigim é sin.

Scríobh Abigail: Sheol Cionaodh go dtí do sheomra thú? Wouldn't that be "An sheol......?"

Answer: Ni sheol, ach duirt sé ní bheadh dinnéar agam.

recté contrarian:

Focal an lae, a chairde:
ciotrúnta [aidiacht den tríú díochlaonadh]
tútach, neamhaclaí; ceanndána.
Foirmeacha Dírithe :
ciotrúntacht [ainmfhocal baininscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]

---

(Ar) Sheol Cionaodh go dtí do sheomra thú?
Níor sheol, ach dúirt sé ná beadh dinnéar agam.

---

Tá an ciotrúnaí seo agus a iníon ag dul a luí anois.
Oíche shuaimhneach agaibh!

Scríobh Abigail: Sheol Cionaodh go dtí do sheomra thú? Wouldn't that be "An sheol......?"

ar sheol. It was set up like a statement but finished like a question. Regular verbs would always use "ar" or "níor" in the past tense.

So your reply would be either sheol or níor sheol

Nior sheol, ach duirt sé ní bheadh dinnéar agam

D'fhoghlaim tú "do cheacht" (Ná bac le "Sasana Nua" agus ní chuirfidh tú féin san fhaopach!) cheana féin, a Mhic -- ní choinneoidh mé bia ar bith uaitse.

Go raibh maith agaibh a Aonghuis agus a Chionaoidh. Dinnéar, dinnéar, dinnéar..... is ócras orm anois, mar sin, imín amach chun dinnéar.

Oíche shuaimhneach agaibh freisin.

Scríobh Cinaodh: ....ní choinneoidh mé bia ar bith uaitse ...I wouldn't keep food at all from you?

I'm confused (as usual) since I'm thinking that "uait(se) can also have to do with "want."

Go raibh maith agat/agaibh.

I wouldn't keep food at all from you?

won't

A Aonghuis, I took a better look at the site you mentioned above, http://www.focal.ie/Search.aspx?term=new+
and I see what you mean about no hard and fast rule, as in the following, other entries:

An Nua-Bhreatain
An Nua-Chaladóin
An Chaistíl Nua
Deilí Nua
An Nua-Ghuine

I was disappointed that there wasn't any entry for "New Jersey." But there is one for "New York" as you've already mentioned above. Oh, well, maybe some day there will be.

quote:

An Chaistíl Nua

New Castile? Agus tá "An Caisleán Nua" againn i gCo. an Dúin, agus ceann eile i Sasana.

I've never seen a post that started and had so many comments by the end of the first day.

Cionaodh agus Mac Leinn, Ta sibh an greannmhar agus cleiste.

Beir bua agus beannacht

In ionad an mic nó Joisey Nua?
In ionad an mhic. Bhí mé ag scoilteadh mo chloiginn ag iarraidh ainm eile oiriúnach a fháil dó (seachas "déanach dá dhinnéar") ach theip orm.

Próca Leáite = Molten Pot? Ní thuigim é sin.
The genitive of a verbal noun usually (almost always?) looks exactly like the verbal adjective.
na bPróca Leáite = of the Pots of Melting = of the Melting Pots

Wouldn't that be "Ar sheol......?"
Formally it should, but verbal particles are sometimes omitted in casual speech if the meaning is otherwise clear:
(An) bhfuil ocras ort? = "(Are) you hungry?"

Or a statement can also be transformed into a question by appropriate punctuation/inflection:
Tá ocras ort cheana féin? = "You're hungry already?"

Scríobh Ríona: I've never seen a post that started and had so many comments by the end of the first day.

Tá fhios agam a Ríona, b'fhéider gur nuachuriarracht (nó curiarracht nua ) é sin. (Maybe it's a new record.) I just hope we can stay on the subject matter (or digress into other Irish-language subjects) rather than discussing what people think of me.

quote:

The genitive of a verbal noun usually (almost always?) looks exactly like the verbal adjective.

Is suimiúil an cheist í sin, Abigail! D'oscail mé FGB at random agus fuair mé:

meas (briathar) = estimate

measta (aidiacht bhriathartha) = estimated ("an praghas measta")

meas (ainm briathartha & ainmfhocal) = estimation; esteem

measa (ginideach an ainmfhocail) = of estimation, of esteem ("i dteideal measa agus cúirtéise")

Níl luaitear "measta" ar chor ar bith mar ghinideach an ainm bhriathartha in FGB, ach fuair mé samplaí de ar an idirlíon gan dua:

Scrúdóídh an tionscadal chomh maith ardchaighdeán infheicthe trí úsáid a bhaint as ECERS (Scála Measta Comhshaoil Luath-Óige) agus ITERS (Scála Measta Comhshaoil Leanbh/Lapadán) le chéile.

modh measta

An rud céanna mar gheall ar "gin". Ní luaitear ach "giniúint" agus "ginte" (mar aidiacht), ach tá samplaí de "ginte" mar ghinideach an ainm bhriathartha le fáil go héasca:

stáisiún ginte leictreachais

The genitive of a verbal noun

Whoa, it wasn't until Dennis posted above that I'm finally feeling the (grammatical) impact of Abigail's post above. I thought just learning the genitive was enough to make my lil' brain go into a tailspin, now I have to learn the genitive of verbal nouns? .

Mac Léinn na bPróca Leáite,

Tá tuairim agam gur féidir dhá ghinideach a bheith ag an ainm briathartha céanna, gnáthghinideach agus an aidiacht briathartha freisin.

Mar shampla, déarfainn "lá breithe," agus is gnáthghinideach é "breithe." Ach déarfainn go raibh cearc óg "i mbéal beirthe" (= "at point of lay"). Sin í an aidiacht bhriathartha, á úsáid mar ghinideach an ainm briathartha.

Ní thuigim cén riail atá ag baint leis ar chor ar bith.

(Message edited by Abigail on February 14, 2007)

quote:

Tá tuairim agam gur féidir dhá ginidigh a bheith ag an ainm briathartha céanna, gnáthghinideach agus an aidiacht briathartha freisin.

Absolutely.

quote:

now I have to learn the genitive of verbal nouns?

But as Abigail pointed out, they are (always??) the same as the verbal adjective (aka "past participle"), so there is no new form to learn. Occasionally, taken out of context, you can read them both ways, as either adjective or genitive of the verbal noun. Mar shampla:

ábhar pléite

= matter of discussing (matter for discussion)
= a matter which has been discussed

When I set up An tInneall Mallachtaí years ago, what I had in mind was that "mallachtaí" is the genitive of "mallachtach" = "the act of cursing", thus "The Engine of Cursing". But everyone is far more familiar with "mallachtaí" as the plural of "mallacht", so almost everyone understands "An tInneall Mallachtaí" as "The Curse(s) Engine". Is cuma. Oibríonn sé, cibé ainm atá air.

Mar sin é? Conas atá 'The Curseol Engine' i mBéarla? Dhá thaobh...

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis.

A chairde, I see from my dictionaries, that verbal nouns have gender - I should consider myself fortunate to study a language with no bounds to its complexity.. We beginners have to learn the gender of every noun, and there are a few dozen rules or so that make learning a noun's gender "straightfoward" . So, in the same vein, are there any "simple" rules for determining the gender of a verbal noun? Take for example the verbal noun "painting" péinteáil. I notice that the gender of the verbal noun péinteáil is feminine and that the gender of péint is also feminine. Is this a mere coincidence, or is there a direct connection between the genders of a verbal noun that is related to a noun, like "painting" and "paint?"

Then there are verbal nouns that probably don't have a related noun, so my next question is, are there any rules to determine the gender of the verbal noun in those cases?

Too bad verbs don't have gender. (Conas deirtear masochist as Gaeigle?)

The next question I have is what is one to do with the gender of the verbal noun? How does it come into play in the syntax/grammar of the sentence? Does it play the same role as the gender of a genitive of a noun does?

Last question: Is there such a thing as a genitive of a verbal adjective?

I know that I've probably exceeded my limit of questions in this posting, but I'd be grateful for any assistance in understanding the gender and use of genitives of verbal nouns.

A Mhac Leinn,

I already told you what I think of you. Hope it wasn't too painful. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

Ceann maith (good one) a Ríona! Is maith liom do ghreann agus tagainn sé ag an am foirfe (perfect time). Greann means humour, not weirdness - I sure hope you get the inside joke of me explaining its meaning.

Conas tá do staidéar in ollscoil?

A Mhac Leinn a chara,

Ta ollscoil go maith (fine, not great) :) Ta me i mo bliain trian.

Beir bua agus beannacht

trian Focal nua (nó nuafhocal? ) dom - go raibh maith agat. Tá mo mhac ina bhliain cearthrú in ollscoil. Ba bhreá liomsa ag dul ag ollscoil ar ais. Is an am is fearr é sa (n?)domhan!

Numbers are one case where an "adjective" does precede the noun.

an chéad bhliain
an dara bliain
an tríú bliain
an ceathrú bliain

"Trian" is "third" as in "1/3", not as in "3rd". They're separate words in Irish - but "4th" and "1/4" are both "ceathrú," "5th" and "1/5" are both "cúigiú," etc. Go figure.

So, in the same vein, are there any "simple" rules for determining the gender of a verbal noun?
Like other nouns, Irish verbal nouns can usually (i.e. almost always) be sexed by observing their endings. In fact this is even easier for verbal nouns than for other nouns, because there are fewer kinds of endings involved. (And because the spelling reform didn't come along and collapse several endings into one, ach sin scéal eile agus lá eile dá insint...)

Some of the most common endings for verbal nouns are -(e)áil (feminine), -(e)adh (masculine), and -(i)ú (masculine).

A verbal noun can be used just like any other noun, and when doing so its gender is treated in exactly the same way.

As for verbal adjectives: in theory they are declined to match the noun's case and gender, just like a normal adjective. However, verbal adjectives invariably end in a noun - and adjectives ending in a noun are indeclinable. So all you have to worry about is whether to lenite them or not (and they follow the same rules for that as any other adjective.)

A Abigail, go raibh maith agat as an eolas.
Tá mo mhac ina ceathrú bliain in ollscoil - an bhfuil sé ceart, le do thoil? When you brought up the fact that "4th" and "1/4" are both "ceathrú," "5th" and "1/5" are both "cúigiú," I couldn't help thinking of my first office mate at work, who had a great sense of humour. One day he was poking fun, in a light-hearted manner, at his religious denomination and he told me of their saying that "whenever there are four of them together, there's always a fifth."

Thanks also for the info on verbal nouns and verbal adjectives. Your point about endings is well-appreciated, although for some reason I can't even get the gender rules to sink into my head for nouns, let alone verbal nouns. Could you give an example of what you mean by a verbal adjectives ending in a noun? I'm trying to understand how say the verbal adjective "painted" as in "the painted house" is considered ending in a noun. Thank you very much.

Tá sé "ina cheathrú bliain." Bheadh d'iníon "ina ceathrú bliain" agus an beirt acu le chéile "ina gceathrú bliain."

"End in a vowel" ba chóir dom a scríobh. Tá brón orm. Is mithid dom éirí as seo agus dul 'na luí... oíche mhaith agat, a Mhic.

Tuigim anois, "end in a vowel." I should've have gotten the ina chearthú - thanks for the correction.

Oíche mhaith agatsa fresin.