I was just going through some past threads on this forum and was surprised when i read this:

"The dz and ts pronounciation in Connemara is mainly (maybe only) the women’s one. I’ve heard one male singer who had that pronounciation too." (quoted from Lughaidh)


Is there really such a thing as a feminine pronounciation of Irish? I would be very interested to know since I'm studying the Cois Fhairrge dialect. Does anyone have an idea?

also does Irish slender 's' and english 'sh' differ in any way? I know they both sound alike but are they articulated at all the same way?

Angmar,
To my knowledge neither the dz nor the ts sound exists in Connemara Irish, or in any other dialect for that matter. I'm from Connemara, and I'm not aware of them. Then again, I may be wrong. I would appreciate some examples, if anyone has them. There doesn't seem to be any differences between the slender 's'and English 'sh' as far as articulation is concerned.

A Mhaidhcilin a chara,

I think what is refered to here is a discussion we had some time ago about how to correctly pronounce slender Ds and Ts. It was said that while many people pronounce them as J and CH would be in English, this is just what learners and young people do and the sounds are a bit more complicated than that. Someone likened what they should sound like to being like dz and ts (aproximation)

So that is what went on before.

Beir bua agus beannacht

In terms of specific difference, there is indeed a difference as the varience accross Irish dialects is greater than in Hiberno-English. However, no one will percieve a real difference, as they are all just treated like a slender s by everyone.

Maybe native irish speaker generations ago would have heard them as seperate. Irish is tending to move towards engish for coronal sounds, to my ear, anyway

Go raibh maith agat a Riona. Tuigim anois céard atá i gceist. Yes indeed, those sounds give learners great difficulty.

quote:

To my knowledge neither the dz nor the ts sound exists in Connemara Irish

But they do, as one realizatioin of slender 'd' and 't'. The sounds appear to have originated rather recently in the speech of young women (a typical source of linguistic innovation) and have spread since then into the speech of some younger men as well.

If those dz and ts sounds are new for slender d and t, then what sounds were made for them before.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

what sounds were made for them before

dy agus ty i gConamara; j agus ch i dTír Chonaill (Cúige Uladh).

A Dhennis a chara,

Is maith liom na dy agus ty fuaimeanna.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Dennis a chara,
Tá beagán aimhris orm i dtaobh na bhfuaimeanna sin a luaigh tú le h-aghaidh an d agus an t caol i dTír Chonaill. Ní raibh fhios agam go raibh Aifricéad sa nGaeilge, ach b'fhéidir go bhfuil tú ceart. Ní ag cur chogaidh ort atá mé, ach ag lorg eolais.

Ní fóineolaí mé, a Mhaidhcilín. Ní aithním idir na haifricéid agus na cuimiltigh, faraor. Tá a fhios agam, áfach, go bhfuil "teangaidh" (teanga) an-chosúil le chang-ee i dTír Chonaill, agus "deas" an-chosúil le jass.

Mar eolas daoibh (fyi), seo teachtaireacht a chuir mé chuig an liosta Gaeilge-A thiar sa bhliain 1999:

Ar thug sibh faoi deara go bhfuil difríocht shuntasach idir an tslí a bhfuaimníonn fir agus mná an "t caol" agus an "d caol" i nGaeilge Chonamara? Mura a bhfuil dul amú orm, fuaimníonn na fir (agus cuid de na mná) "cinnte" mar KEEN-tyuh /ki:n't'@/. Ach i leaba "ty", séard a chloisim ó chuid de na mná (na mná óga ach go háirithe) ná "ts": KEEN-tsuh. Agus deir siad "féidir" mar FAY-dzir agus "brídeach" mar BREE-dzuhkh. Níl an litriú seo in ann na fuaimeanna a chur in iúl go beacht, ar ndóigh, ach an rud is tábhachtaí ná go bhfuil "sex differentiation" le sonrú i labhairt na teanga. An bhfuil an ceart agam? An rud sách nua é seo? An bhfuil sé ag leathnú?

(Message edited by dennis on February 08, 2007)

Is fíor dhuit a Dennis faoin bhfuaimniú sin i gConamara. Bhí ainm againn ar an ngalar sin: buinneach. Ar mhná óga is mó a thagadh sé, cé go raibh corr-fhear a d'fháigheadh é freisin. Tá súil agam nach galar tógálach é, agus b'fhéidir le Dia go bhfuil sé leigheasta.
Cuireann sé i gcuimhne dhom daoine a d'imíodh ar feadh míosa nó dhó as an nGaeltacht, agus a thagadh ar ais agus canúint orthu. Go deimhin, tá airíonna éagsúla ag an tinneas seo. Bhí mo chomrádaí i mBoston ag cur síos dhom ar an bhfear óg seo as Conamara a d'airigh sé ag casaoid i mbeár "that Gaelic is giving me a headache."
B'fhéidir go gcuirfeadh an ráiteas sin an feiniméan seo i gcomhthéacs dhuit, agus go mbeadh sé intuigthe. Ní mar sin a labhair an sean-dream i gConamara, agus tá togha na n-Gaeilgeoirí fós ann. Faraoir, sílim nach iad an ghlúin óg iad.

how do you put fadas in on the computer
Le do thoil.

quote:

Bhí ainm againn ar an ngalar sin: buinneach.

Dáiríre?!? "Tugtar citeal ar chiteal agus tugtar corcán ar chorcán," ... ach tuigtear buinneach nuair a chloistear í mar sin féin!

quote:

Tá súil agam nach galar tógálach é

Tá, ar an drochuair. Ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé ag leathnú taobh amuigh de Chonamara... fós.

quote:

agus b'fhéidir le Dia go bhfuil sé leigheasta.

B'fhéidir é. Nach bhfuil chuile rud inleigheasta ach an bás féin?

quote:

how do you put fadas in on the computer

Cén sórt ríomhaire atá agat? Mac? PC?

the whole "ts"/"dz" thing makes me think of how caitríona from ros na rún speaks... if you watch tg4 listen to her as an example.

how do you put fadas in on the computer

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/discus.pl?pg=formatting

Or, see the bottom off this screen, where you can simply drag and drop the vowels with their fadas

So, there is such a thing as a feminine pronunciation! A quite unusual thing one would imagine...

as for slender 's' i was under the impression after having read some articles on Irish phonology that in fact the sound isn't produced as in English 'sh', that is, with the tongue tip curling slightly towards the hard palate. From what i might of understood the sound is more like the ich-laut in German or Irish slender 'ch' but with tongue more forward in the mouth thus making the friction not with the tip of the curled tongue but rather with it's blade front (raised somewhat on the alveolar). Is that right? Or is the consonant just a plain English 'sh'?

Anyways thanks!

There is an aberration that some young male and female speakers exhibit in pronunciation, which is symptomatic of a lack of fluency, and not indicative of any normal lingusitic phenomenon. What was called the 'blas'(a combination of factors showing total competence in the language) has been lost among the younger generation. As has been documented by a number of researchers in recent years, the youth have essentially abandoned Gaeilge in favor of English. I observed it first-hand on numerous visits home.
But these are not "native" speakers of Irish, and their speech patterns should not be presumed to represent any changes in that particular dialect, no more than those of students who are not fluent would be.
What Dennis wrote about the pronunciation is in fact true and accurate. But if the implication is that this is authentic Connemara Irish, native speakers of the dialect--of which there are many--would find that notion absurd.

I believe slender s in most Irish dialects is realized like the English 'sh' sound. Phonetically this would be represented by 'ʃ'. It's apical, meaning it's done with the tip of the tongue as you mentioned. However I've heard some dialects might be reflecting it also as a laminal, and phonetically it would be 'ɕ' like a Polish 'ś' sound. However I'm not sure of this. Pronouncing it simply as English 'sh' would be correct.