Mura bhfuil Dinneen sách sean duit... seo ceann a foilsíodh i bPáras sa bhliain 1768 le Seán Ó Briain!

It appears that Google is responsible for the on-line facsimile, atá ar fáil anseo:

http://books.google.fr/books?vid=OCLC03435727&id=C30CAAAAQAAJ&printsec=titlepage

Seo sampla as:

CLEACHDAIM, to use, to practise; to be accustomed. cleachd tù féin, use your self. nír chleachd mé an bogha do lùba, I never practised the bending of the bow. nàr chleachd an chuing, unaccustomed to the yoke.

Is gleoite an fríth é seo agat, a Dhe'n Fhios.

I... It was noticed that for the entry fáilte, there is the following:

Fáilte: welcome, cuirim fáilte, wellcome. also a salutation or greeting.

The above definition implies that the first definition of fáilte is a respone to thank you, since the second definition indicates that fáilte can also be used as a salutation.

If this is true, then it pushes our discovery date of tá fáilte romhat back to 1768! That makes the saying 239 years old! Is that long enough to be considered a genuine Irish saying, contrary to what some have written in a previous thread, strongly against this saying?

Fáilte: welcome, cuirim fáilte, wellcome. also a salutation or greeting.

quote:

The above definition implies that the first definition of fáilte is a respone to thank you, since the second definition indicates that fáilte can also be used as a salutation.

There's no such implication. Ní féidir an tátal sin a bhaint as an sainmhíniú thuas. Deir an chéad abairtín gur ainmfhocal é an focal "fáilte" agus gur féidir é a úsáid mar ainmfhocal: literally I put a welcome. Deir an dara habairtín gur féidir an focal a úsáid leis féin mar bheannú, .i. Fáilte! Céad míle fáilte! etc.

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis. It was wishful thinking on one's part. But it doesn't rule out the possibility that "fáilte" is a response to "thank you."

quote:

But it doesn't rule out the possibility that "fáilte" is a response to "thank you."

Is fíor sin.

Cad é an sampla is luaithe dá bhfuil againn de "tá fáilte romhat" á úsáid mar "thank you ~ you're welcome.?

(Message edited by dennis on January 22, 2007)

Ní raibh fhios agam nach raibh "tá fáilte romhat" dílis Gaeilge nath? [genuine Irish saying]

Is cuid den teanga é anois, Neddam, gan dabht dá laghad. Ach deirtear go dtáinig sé ón mBéarla ar dtús. Tá taighde (research) le déanamh air seo!

Tá an foclóir sin sa leabharlann s'againne; d'fhéach mé air fadó, ach bhí Dinneen féin ró-sheanda dom san uair sin agus ní dhearna sé aon mhaith dom.

Caithfidh mé súil eile a chaitheamh air...

Scríobh Dennis: Cad é an sampla is luaithe dá bhfuil againn de "tá fáilte romhat" á úsáid mar "thank you ~ you're welcome.?

A Dennis,I don't know if you're asking me a question or not, but here's my attempt at translating: What is the earliest example that we've found where "tá fáilte romhat" is used in response to "thank you?"

Yes, if you're asking the question. I would be interested to re-kindle our search for the earliest example of "tá fáilte romhat" being used as a response to "thank you." From our previous thread on this subject, I think we got back to the 1950's.

A Abigail: I don't know if it would be ok with you to attempt to translate your posting above, but I don't understand it completely. A bfhuil tú ag ra go raibh Dineen é fein ró-sheanda, nó a bfhuil tú ag ra go raibh foclóir Dineen ró-sheanda? Agus, ní thuigim nuair d'usaid dom tar eis "ró-sheanda" agus tar eis "mhaith." An bhfuair tú "tá fáilte romhat" a úsaid mar "thank you" sa foclóir leabharlann?

A chairde, what makes a Irish saying genuine? I have a suspicion that many words in Irish come from other languages, and probably the same holds true for sayings if we go back far enough.



FRC-GRMA

quote:

What is the earliest example that we've found where "tá fáilte romhat" is used in response to "thank you?"

Sin agat é go díreach glan. Tá taighde le déanamh againn. Mar a dúirt Lily Tomlin aka Trudy the Bag Lady, "Ya gotta have evidence."

Bhuel, níor bhuail mé leis an Athair Pádraig riamh, ach táim sách cinnte go mbeadh seisean ro-shean dom chomh maith! Ach is é an foclóir a bhí i gceist agam.

Ní bhfuair mé "tá fáilte romhat" sa bhfoclóir sin, ná i bhfoclóir ar bith eile ach oiread. (Toisc nach ndeachaigh mé ar a lorg riamh, is dócha. Bhí an abairt sin foghlamtha agam sula bhfuair mé aon fhoclóir Gaeilge.)

Bhí Dinneen féin ró-sheanda dom - Even Dinneen was too old for me
(Cuir i gcomparáid: Bhí Dinneen é féin ró-sheanda dom - Dinneen himself was too old for me)

Ní dhearna sé aon mhaith dom. - It didn't do any good to/for me.

(Message edited by Abigail on January 22, 2007)

quote:

From our previous thread on this subject, I think we got back to the 1950's.

Tá úrscéal gairid agam a foilsíodh sa bhliain 1903. An Gioblachán an t-ainm atá air. Tomás Ó hAodha (1866-1935), cainteoir Gaeilge ó dhúchas, a scríobh é.

It seemed like a good place to look, so I skimmed it. (Níl ann ach 103 leathanach.) I found three instances of "go raibh maith agat", and one of the more elaborate "go bhfágaidh Dia do shaoghal agus do shláinte agat", and none of them were followed by "tá fáilte romhat" or any other formula of acknowledgement. The only "fáilte romhat" I came across was the welcoming wish "Céad fáilte romhat annso."

This is negative evidence, but not without some value.

A Abigail, thanks for explaining and I appreciate your patience with me. I haven't figured out what you mean by "Dineen is too old" for you. Do you mean that his dictionary is too antiquated to be of any good in this matter of researching "tá fáilte romhat?" The objective that started from a previous thread was to find the earliest instance of the use of "tá fáilte romhat," so the "older the better" applies here.

A Dennis, nuair a scríobh tú and none of them were followed by "tá fáilte romhat" or any other formula of acknowledgement., do you mean that there wasn't any kind of response, fáilte or no fáilte, when the person said "thank you?"

...This is negative evidence, but not without some value. I don't think it's negative evidence. Ní bleachtaire mé, but I think that it just shows that in that particular book, there isn't any evidence of "tá fáilte romhat," so I think it's neutral evidence. Ach aontaim leat - there is definite value, especially considering the fact that I learned a new way to say "thank you" ("go bhfágaidh Dia do shaoghal agus do shláinte agat").

Mac Léinn Fianaise

FRC-GRMA

quote:

A Dennis, nuair a scríobh tú and none of them were followed by "tá fáilte romhat" or any other formula of acknowledgement., do you mean that there wasn't any kind of response, fáilte or no fáilte, when the person said "thank you?"

Yes.

...This is negative evidence, but not without some value.

quote:

I don't think it's negative evidence. Ní bleachtaire mé, but I think that it just shows that in that particular book, there isn't any evidence of "tá fáilte romhat," so I think it's neutral evidence.

Nuair a deir scoláirí "negative evidence", séard a chiallaíonn sé sin ná "we didn't find anything" -- is ionann é sin agus do "neutral evidence". Negative evidence only becomes persuasive tar éis duit a lán de a charnadh. :-)

Scríobh Dennis: Yes. It seems odd to me that the folks in that book never say "you're welcome" in any form after someone says "thank you."

So "negative evidence" means "no evidence" to an engineer type like me. I wonder why scholars just don't say "no evidence." I suppose "negative evidence" sounds fancier.

"No evidence is good evidence."

(Message edited by mac_léinn on January 22, 2007)

quote:

It seems odd to me that the folks in that book never say "you're welcome" in any form after someone says "thank you."

Tá mé sásta na comhráite a scríobh síos duit, más mian leat. Feicfidh tú chomh nádúrtha agus atá sé gan "tá fáilte romhat" ná rud ar bith eile a rá.

A Dhennis, ghabhfadh me buiochas duit ma dhearna tu e sin. Is beagnach ait dom na 'failte' no rud eigin a ra tar eis 'grma', go hairithe in Eirinn dea-bheasach deis-chainteach.

quote:

So "negative evidence" means "no evidence" to an engineer type like me. I wonder why scholars just don't say "no evidence." I suppose "negative evidence" sounds fancier.

Ní hionann "no evidence" agus "negative evidence". Mura mbeadh an t-abairtín "go raibh maith agat" san úrscéal seo ar chor ar bith, bheadh "no evidence" ann. Ós rud é go bhfuil sé ann, áfach, gan aon "you're welcome" ina dhiaidh, is éard atá againn ná "negative evidence". An bhfeiceann tú an difríocht anois? :-)

Na sliochta as an úrscéal:

1.

"A' bhfeacaís éinne mar sin annso," ar seisea, "ó thángais isteach?"

"Chonnac," arsa mise, "agus chuaidh sé síos go héadan an phuirt; acht ní fhaca mé ó shoin é."

"is maith sin," ars' an píléir, "go raibh maith agat."

"Acht cad do dhein an fear so as an tslighe?"

2.

"Acht cionnus tá an chos agat anois?"

"Tá sí go breagh; ní'l pioc uirri anois, go raibh maith agat."

"Is maith é sin," ar sé, "is dóigh liom go bhfuil sé i n-am codlata dhúinn anois...."

3.

"Go raibh maith agat," ar sise; "chím go bhfuil an lá ag spalpadh suas arís, agus caithfimíd beith ag gluaiseacht anois."

Do chroth sí lámh liom ag gabháil amach di....

4.

"Tá sé sin go breagh," arsa mise, "Ní fhéadfadh mo mháthair féin é dhéanamh níos slachtmhaire nó níos blasta; go bhfágaidh Dia do shaoghal agus do shláinte agat agus ná raibh an oiread sin de luigheachán bliadhna ort."

"Tá do mháthar beo mar sin," ar seisean, agus leig sé osna as.

An bhfeiceann tú an difríocht anois?

Feicim, sílim.

Níl "go raibh maith agat" san úrscéal = no evidence

Tá "go raibh maith agat" gan "tá failte romhat" = negative evidence.

An bhfuil an ceart aige thuas?

Conas dearfa "ós rud é" i mBéarla, le do thoil?

quote:

An bhfuil an ceart aige thuas?

Tá sin ceart.

BTW, things are ceart, while people have ceart:

Tá sé sin (an rud a dúirt tú) ceart.
Tá an ceart agat.

quote:

Conas dearfa "ós rud é" i mBéarla, le do thoil?

Ós rud é go = ó is rud é go = from is thing it that (!) = since, because, given that, since it is the case that, since the deal is that, etc.

GRMA a Dennis. Tá Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla agam i rith an lae anois, agus feicim Ós é. It's one of the last entries after a page and half on the preposition Ó! It's very interesting how Ós comes from {ó is}. I would have never figured that one out. All I could find was the entry "ós" meaning "above."

"off-topic" b'fhéidir, ach rud éigin "spéisiúil"....rising roads and welcomes with 'negatives,' in one historic sentence:
ó 1910:
"mhaise nár eirighe a mbóthar leo, is nár a míle fáilte rómpa, na h-amadáin."

quote:

"mhaise nár eirighe a mbóthar leo, is nár a míle fáilte rómpa, na h-amadáin."

An-spéisiúil! :-) The above "nár a" is actually one word, i.e. "nára" (negative present subjunctive of the copula "is"). The more common construction would use the neg. subj. of the verb "tá" here:

Ná raibh (instead of "nára") míle fáilte rompu! = May there not be a thousand welcomes before them!

Continuing on the topic of the history of "go raibh maith agat ~ tá fáilte romhat" i nGaeilge, tá cúpla ceist agam:

Cé chomh fada agus a bhí "you're welcome" in úsáid i mBéarla mar fhreagra ar "thank you"?

Cé chomh fada agus a bhí "go raibh maith agat" in úsáid i nGaeilge?

A Dhennis a chara,

Ta ceisteanna maith agat. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

Cé chomh fada agus a bhí "you're welcome" in úsáid i mBéarla mar fhreagra ar "thank you"?

An bhfuil cóip den OED agat, a Mhac?

dúirt dennis:
"An-spéisiúil! :-) The above "nár a" is actually one word"

tá sé scríofa mar sin (nár a)cúpla háit i leabhar sin. poor proofing nó nach raibh sé ag teacht le gnás ?

frc

An bhfuil cóip den OED agat, a Mhac?

Tá, ach tá sé sa bhaile. Feicfidh me aige anocht.

From much earlier in the thread (sorry, I've just now seen it):
I haven't figured out what you mean by "Dineen is too old" for you. Do you mean that his dictionary is too antiquated to be of any good in this matter of researching "tá fáilte romhat?"

Bhí foclóir Dinneen "ró-sheanda dom" san uair sin mar nach raibh mé in ann é a léamh! Nuair a bhí mé i mo thosaitheoir, chuir an seanchló scanradh orm - agus ní ba mheasa ná sin ab é an seanlitriú. Tá an dá rud le fáil i bhfoclóir Dinneen.
(ní ba mheasa ná sin = "worse than that")
(an dá rud = "the two things" = "both things")

Ní raibh sé i m'intinn agam "tá fáilte romhat" a chuardach riamh. Chuir Dennis agus Google foclóir eile ar fáil againn, agus dúirt Dennis gur mhaith linn é "mura bhfuil Dinneen sách sean duit" (= "if Dinneen's not old enough for you.") Sin a raibh mé á fhreagairt.

Dála an scéil:
sean = old
seanda = old-fashioned, antiquated

Seans maith go mbeadh Dinneen (fiú murar sagart é) ró-shean dom - bímse beagán cosúil leis an tSeanbhean Bhocht! - ach bhí a fhoclóir ró-shean agus ró-sheanda araon dar liom. :-)

quote:

Tá, ach tá sé sa bhaile.

Maith thú. Tá sé agam freisin, agus thug mé súil air aréir. Ní fheicim aon tagairt do "you're welcome" ar lorg "thank you" ann. An rud is gaire dó ná na samplaí faoi "And welcome" (s.v. "welcome"). Ach is féidir nár léigh mé chuile rud go cúramach. So I'd welcome another look at the entries by your súil ghrinn. :-) An féidir gur fhás an freagra "you're welcome" as seo?

An rud is suimiúla faoi seo ná go bhfuil na focail "agus fáilte" in úsáid sa Ghaeilge freisin. "Beir leat é agus fáilte" in FGB, mar shampla. De ráite na fírinne, tá sé seo níos coitianta i nGaeilge an lae inniu ná mar atá "and welcome" i mBéarla an lae inniu. I would bet that the phrase came into Irish from English originally.

A Dennis,

I haven't yet looked at OED yet. Our computer was "reformatted" a while back and OED is gone - it's long story about reloading it. Ach, tá sé sin ag mo mhic ag ollscoil. Béidh mé cur ceist do.

Mac, here's some more negative evidence for you. But interesting! A lot of books were translated from English into Irish during the first half of the 20th century. One was The Adventures of Jimmie Dale by Frank L. Packard, which was translated by Diarmuid Ó Súilleabháin and published in 1933 as Eachtraei Shéamuis Uí Dhuibhir. The English original is now available in searchable form on the Web. So I searched it for instances of "thank you" (none) and of "thanks" (several, mostly "thanks to", but two instances of the formula "thanks awfully", one of which one is followed by a formula of acknowledgement, to wit:

"Thanks awfully for letting me know, old man."

"Don't mention it!" returned Carruthers sarcastically. "You always were a grateful beast, Jimmie. Hurry up!"

Okay. Now here's the translation:

"Táim fíor-bhuidheach díot as ucht an méid sin do chur in iúl dom."

"Ní gádh an buidheachas," ar san fear eile. "Ná bí ag déanamh moille anois."

So, "don't mention it" is translated literally and word for word as "is not (a) requirement the thanks". Note that the translator, a native speaker, did not write "Ná habair é", which is the currently used translation of "Don't mention it"; and he obviously didn't choose to use "Tá fáilte romhat." What he did use was the somewhat formal sounding phrase, "Ní gá an buíochas." A similar phrase he might have used would be "Níl a bhuíochas ort." I submit that these phrases with "buíochas" are what we had before "Tá fáilte romhat" and "Ná habair é" became popular.

Dennis, go raibh maith agat as an scéal bronach agus an eolas thuas. Well, I finally got around to installing OED and here's what I found:

quote:

d. you are (or you’re) welcome: a polite formula used in response to an expression of thanks.
[1907 W. W. Jacobs Short Cruises ii. 34 ‘Thank you,’ said the girl, with a pleasant smile. ‘You’re quite welcome,’ said the skipper.]
1960 Times 14 Sept. 12/7 The coloured lift attendant in South Carolina who had that attractive way of saying, almost singing, ‘You’re welcome’ whenever we thanked her.
1977 P. Dickinson Walking Dead i. iv. 55 ‘Thanks,’ said Foxe..‘You’re welcome,’ said Dreiser.
1980 A. E. Fisher Midnight Men viii. 93 He dialled Directory Enquiries and asked the girl if she had a number. She gave him one and told him he was welcome.

So, even from an English-language viewpoint, at least OED's, the first non-negative evidence is 1907. Is deacair a creidim!

Tá scéal bronach eile agam. Inné, fuair me an foclóir De Bhaldraithe's English-Irish Dictionary. And here's the related entry for "you're welcome."

quote:

Thank you very much - You're welcome, go raith míle maith agat - Go ndéana a mhaith dhuit.

In regard to thanks, the earliest evidence that I found in OED is from 888 by King AEfred:

quote:

c888 K. Ælfred Boeth. xxxv. §4 þa _esceafta næren nanes Þonces ne nanes weorðscipes wyrðe.c888 K. Ælfred Boeth. xxxv. §4 þa _esceafta næren nanes Þonces ne nanes weorðscipes wyrðe.

Talk about negative evidence! Caithfidh mé scríobh ar an Bhalrdraithe nó An Gúm. Cen fath? Well, here's what the dictionary's preface [Article 2] says:

quote:

The vocabulary of a living language is, of course, always changing and extending. The usual ways of adding to the vocabulary are by giving new connotations to old words, by borrowing foreign words, or by coining new words. In Irish these three processes have been general for centuries. May loan-words are no longer recognized as such except by the expert

I sense from some of the contributors on this forum that the borrowing of foreign words, in their minds, is now taboo, and leads to such remarks as Ugly Anglicisms when an attempt is made by others to use loan-words. Is there such a thing as a beautiful Anglicism?

I think it was Aonghus who got us back as far as the 1950's with the first non-negative evidence of "Tá fáilte romhat." And, since it's heard so many times and in so many places in everyday Irish parlance (I didn't say everywhare) isn't it about time An Gúm updates their dictionary?

I still haven't gotten used to this scholarly business of negative news. B'fheidir gur é maith gur innealtóir mé. . To me, this whole business of negative news is akin to the following analogy: Someone decides to begin a bird hunt (search, not a Cheney-style hunt) for the Ivory-billed woodpecker. Years and years go by and nothing is found. At the end of the study, a report is compiled with all the examples of birds, blue-jay, robins, ostrichs, chickens, etc, that are not Ivory-billed woodpeckers, and the report is justified based upon the plethora of negative evidence that has been found. In my thinking though, all that has ocurred is that everyone involved with the project failed! In the engineering world we would never report on what we didn't find. We might report on what didn't work, so maybe that's the correct correlation.

I think my above analogy has some value in regard to instances where "tá fáilte romhat" is not found as a response to "go raibh maith agat." All that's being shown, like blue-jay, robins, etc., is that there are other birds, or in this case, other responses besides "tá fáilte romhat." It in no way negates the possibility that the Ivory-billed woodpecker or "tá fáilte romhat" exists. That's what I find so odd about this research project; we're reporting on what we didn't find rather than what we should be finding.

I hope none of my remarks above give you the impression that I'm overly "negative" (pun intended), as I really enjoy the opportunity to beat this Tá fáilte romhat think to death once more. I also appreciate your welcoming of this subject in your thread.

I know that this has been a long-winded posting, but I'd like to ponder one other thought. I wonder if this business of "thank you - you're welcome" may have it's basis in the Gracias Deo. That is, did the word "thanks" come into English, and possibly Irish, by way of Latin?

Slán go fóill,

Mac Léin Fáiltí

the other point I would raise is that, as Lughaidh pointed out, only English and the Celtic languages in contact with it use "you're welcome" as a response to thank you.

Romance and Germanic langauges, of which English is mostly formed, do not.

Dennis has pointed out that "agus fáilte" is common in other phrases in Irish, e.g. Bíodh deoch agat agus fáilte.

So why is it more likely that this form went into English rather than the other way?

(For the record, what Mac refers to above is the school book "Slí an Eolais" compiled by Cormac Ó Cadhlaigh and used by my father in an all Irish secondary school in 1953.

Nuaiɼ a ġaḃann duine buíoċaſ linn ba ċeart dúinn a rá, "Tá fáilte roṁat"

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/%22you%27re%20welcome%22


http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/en%3Athank%20you

[Origin: 1785–95 for def. 2; n. and adj. use of v. phrase thank you]

Seo píosa fianaise eile daoibh. Sliocht as úrscéal dar teideal Tadhg Gabha le Séamus Ó Dubhghaill is ea é. Níl a fhios agam ar foilsíodh an t-úrscéal ina iomláine riamh, ach nocht an chéad dá chaibidil sa bhliain 1904 in imleabhar X den chnuasach Irish Literature.

(I don't know if the novel was ever published in full, Mac, but the first two chapters were excerpted in Irish Literature, vol. 10, published in 1904.)

"Go raibh maith agat, a Mhíchíl; agus b'fhéidir ó táim leathlámhach go bhfágfá an soc ag an gceardchain; abair le Tomás é chur fíor-bheagán 'sa bhfód."

"Déanfad é sin agus fáilte, " arsa Mícheál, agus d'iompuigh Domhnall Ruadh abhaile.

"Thank you, Michael; and perhaps since I'm short-handed you'd leave the plowshare at the forge; tell Tom to put it a little more into the sod." [i.e., adjust it cut a bit deeper]

"I'll do that, and welcome," said Michael, and Dónall Rua turned toward home.

Go raibh maith agaibh a Aonghuis agus a Dennis.

1904, tá sé go hiontach! That means "tá fáilte romhat is over one hundred years old - happy belated birthday!

Does anyone know how long a loan-phrase has to exist in Irish for it to be considered Irish? I hope it's less that 103 years. Some folks may have loftier aspirations, but one thing that I'd like to see in my lifetime is "tá fáilte romhat" acheive that honor.

Cé hé an Seán Ó Briain seo, an foclóirí?

one thing that I'd like to see in my lifetime is "tá fáilte romhat" acheive that honor.

You seem to have a pathological impulse to Anglicise Irish idiom, a mhic.

Cé hé an Seán Ó Briain seo, an foclóirí?

You seem to have a pathological impulse to Anglicise Irish idiom, a mhic.

I've often wondered where the Irish language would be if those who have the pathological tendency to block out loan-words, phrases, etc from other languages would be. I suppose Irish would be nothing but rune marks and Ogham letters with a very limited vocabulary.

Fortunately, the Irish with their native language over the centuries has paid no heed to such individuals.

Mac Léinn Paiteolaíochta


(Message edited by mac_léinn on February 07, 2007)

An emerging Nua Joisey-American-Hiberno-English-Irish dialect! Maith thu, a Mhac!

Á! Fuair mé é, is dócha. Agus é ina easpag!

"Bishop Sean Ó Bríaín

(1701-1769)

On Jan. 10th 1748 Sean Mac Thomais O' Briain was appointed Bishop of Cloyne and Ross. Previously he had been working as a priest in Carraig na bhFear. He was born in 1701 at Beal Ath an Mhadaidh in the Cill Dairbhre district in north east Cork. He was ordained in France and perhaps spent some further time them before returning to Ireland. Scenes of Southern France occasionally were mentioned in his writings. He probably began his labours as a priest in Ireland in 1734. Fr. O' Briain was around Carraig na bhFear in 1745 and stayed in the "Big House" (Mc Carthys). He is remembered as a fine natured man with a sense of humour through his sermons. And he got on with the people of Carraig na bhFear very well. When his horse died the parishioners bought him another one. This act won the people a seven versed poem by Fr. O' Briain which begins:

"A people like to my people no priest has,

A goodpeople, jolly, comfortable and prosperous,

A people free from ahuslishness and unsociability- loyal and human,

Readily did they neatly place a steed beneath my weary body. ''

He published an Irish - Eng. Dictionary published in Paris (1768). He also wrote a short book in simple language on Irish history supplying all dates. Fr. O' Briain wasn't a finished scholar in either linguistic training or history. It is said that he went abroad returned, and went abroad again later. He spent the last 3 years of his life in France. He died in Lyon in 1769 and he was honourably interred in a famous church.

This is the record of his bunal in 1769.

The most reverend and most illustrious Sean O' Briain "bishop of the United diocesses of Cloyne and Ross in Ireland died on the 13th of March, aged 68 and was interred on the l5th of this month by me, the -undersigned administrator in the tomb beside the parish altar of this church, in the presence of Fr Ó Hea and Henry Schouler, priests of the congregation of the Mission of the Lyon house, and of the other unsigned.

Scríobh Maidhc: An emerging Nua Joisey-American-Hiberno-English-Irish dialect!

Actually, my preference for "tá fáilte romhat" has nothing to do with being from the States. Rather, it has to do with the fact that I've heard the phrase used by Irish speakers hundreds of times, and have seen it in print virtually everywhere there is the occurrence of "you're welcome." Of, course there are other responses to "thank you" in the Irish language, but that's not the issue in this discussion.

The issue is whether tá fáilte romhat is considered a valid Irish saying. Thanks to Aonghus' and Dennis' efforts we've seen that the phrase goes back to first 1953 and then 1904, respectively. So I'm curious. I'd like to ask this following question to those who refuse to admit that "tá fáilte romhat" is a valid Irish saying:

A chairde, why do you consider all the hundreds, if not thousands of loan-words and phrases that have entered the Irish language as genuinely Irish, but don't consider "tá fáilte romhat" as a valid Irish saying? There seems to be a fault in the logic. Or is there something else at play here, such as dialectical preferences, etc?

I'd be interested in hearing from any and all members of the anti tá fáilte romhat camp on this issue.

Actually, I should have been more specific. I was not referring to the phrase "tá fáilte romhat" but to the post which read, and wherein you wrote below the italics:

"You seem to have a pathological impulse to Anglicise Irish idiom, a mhic.

I've often wondered where the Irish language would be if those who have the pathological tendency to block out loan-words, phrases, etc from other languages would be. I suppose Irish would be nothing but rune marks and Ogham letters with a very limited vocabulary.

Fortunately, the Irish with their native language over the centuries has paid no heed to such individuals."

In regard to "tá fáilte romhat," I have heard and used this prhase as well as "ná habair é" when responding to others.

But I didn't think that the 1904 "example" was quite the same thing, did you?

This exact phrase (in English) is still used in parts of rural Pennsylvania. My grandfather says it occasionally. I've never heard it as a reply to "thank you," though - invariably it marks an affirmative response to a request for help.
"Would you send one of the boys down to help milk tonight?"
"I'll do that and welcome" = "I'll do it gladly, willingly"

That's what I see in Dennis's example above. Thanks are given, yes - but a request is also made, and "déanfad agus fáilte" is a response to that request, not an acknowledgment of the thanks that preceded it.

I see your point Abigail. So, it looks like the earliest, bone fide example is Aonghus' taking us back to 1953. That's over 50 years ago. Perhaps an Irish-language historian could help us in determining what the typical time period would has been for the thousands of loan words and phrases that have entered the Irish language to achieve bone fide stature. Has it been a matter of a few years, or does it take centuries? And are certain phrases singled out, due to anti-English sentiment at certain times in history for example, or due to say, dialectical preferences, etc?

P.S. On the way to work everyday, I pass some telephone poles that have painted on them diagonal slashes. I wonder if there's some movement underway to return us to the rune-mark days of long ago. And I can't help but wonder if those ancient rune-mark lovers felt the same aversion to the latinization of their language as the anti-tá fáilte romhat camp feels today.

Ní fiú "tá fáilte romhat" a phlé níos mó.
Deireann Éamon Ó Cuív é.
Deirim féin é.
Is cuid den teanga é anois. Case closed.

Is cuid den teanga é anois. Case closed.

Cuid do Sheoiníní?


Is éigean dom an seanfhocal sin a fhoghlaim --
Ná bac leis an Mhac agus ní bhacfaidh an Mac leat.

A chairde, why do you consider all the hundreds, if not thousands of loan-words and phrases that have entered the Irish language as genuinely Irish, but don't consider "tá fáilte romhat" as a valid Irish saying?

Bí cú-úl, a Dhúid. Is breá linn na S.A.M. agus a slanguage. An-spórt a bhíonn sé.

A Chionaodh, níl aon dabht ag aon duine gurb breá leat na S.A.M. Cill amach tú fein.

Is cuid den teanga é anois. Case closed.

Aw, shucks! Bhuel, on to the next "Ugly Anglicism."

Cill amach tú fein

"til", b'fhéidir?

Bíonn cill ina bhriathar le gangstaera i Joisey Nua, cloisim.

'Sea, is é til é. After typing "cill" I kept thinking how to get the "ch" sound in Irish; now I got it - go raibh 1024 maith agat.

Bíonn cill ina bhriathar le gangstaera i Joisey Nua, an ea? Now we're starting to get that emerging Nua Joisey-American-Hiberno-English-Irish dialect that Maidhc mentioned above.

quote:

Bhuel, on to the next "Ugly Anglicism."

Ní bheidh tú gan ábhar pléite choíche! Tabhair súil ar "ag déanamh iontais" faoi "Ceacht uimhríochta". But don't get yer knickers in a knot.

Ní féidir liom a fheiceáil an focal "choiche" nó coiche sa foclóir atá agam anois.

Ní bheidh tú gan ábhar pléite choíche - you will not without exhausting the matter (choiche?). Ach, feicim anois do theachtaireacht faoi "Ceacht uimhriochta." Tá mé reidh! Imigh amach liom!

quote:

Ní bheidh tú gan ábhar pléite choíche

Ní bheidh tú you will not be gan without ábhar pléite matter/subject of discussion [pléite, gen. of verbal noun plé] choíche ever in the future / forever

quote:

Imigh amach liom!

= Get out of my way?? Fág an bealach! a deirtear.

quote:

Imigh amach liom!

Nó "Off I go"? Más é sin atá ar intinn agat, is féidir é seo a rá: As go brách liom!

'Sea, As go brách liom! Go raibh maith agat, a Dennis.

I should've known better than to use the second-person imperative when I tried to say "Off I go" as "Imigh amach liom." I would guess it would be rarely heard, but could I have said imín amach where imín = first-person imperative? I only ask because I've been intrigued that Irish has imperative forms for each person. I always thought that, at least in my limited studies of Spanish and French (and a little English ) that the only imperative was the second-person (singular and plural) imperative.

I don't mean to drive the point above, as I understand that as go brách liom is the correct form; I'm just interested in the other-person imperatives and whether they're ever used in Irish.

I think the first person singular imperative is there more for symmetry than anything else.

First person plural makes sense though:

imímis

Let's go!

The third person forms make sense as a transmitted command:

A Mhac, imíodh do mhac sula tagann mise ar an fód, nó is duitse is measa!

Caveat Gaeilgeoir - not addressing issue but only making a comment

The Internet sure makes our study of Irish interesting and demonstrates how life goes in circles. In googling "as go brách" and "imigh amach" to look at more examples in using these forms, I came to http://www.gaeilge.org/FSII-ak/FSII_L10ak.pdf. Thank you again Conradh na Gaeilge Shasana Nua / The Gaelic League of New England for making Irish language study documents available for us.



Le meas,

Maidhc

Go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis. Let's go! I've wondered about that saying in the past, but didn't realize that it was the first-person plural imperative. Is the first-person plural imperative used for other verbs in Irish often or at all?

Also, I know it hasn't been 20 and 4 hours yet, but since you're last remark is directed towards me, I'd like to translate it, since I'm not sure what it means.

A Mhac, imíodh do mhac sula tagann mise ar an fód, nó is duitse is measa!

Mac, your son would go away if I gave (tagann mise?) the sod, or he says worse?

Caveat Gaeilgeoir... - Is breá liomsa é sin - tá tú an ghreannmhar a Mhaidc. . Thanks for the link also!

So, when are youse guys from New England gonna come up wit your own Irish dialect - us Midlanticers have already gotten started!

A Mhac, imíodh do mhac sula tagann mise ar an fód, nó is duitse is measa!

mac, let your son be gone by the time I arrive, or you'll be the worse for it!

GRMA a Aonghuis.

quote:

Is the first-person plural imperative used for other verbs in Irish often or at all?

The obvious example is "guímis"

suímis, seasaimís, éistimís,....

Thank you again Conradh na Gaeilge Shasana Nua / The Gaelic League of New England for making Irish language study documents available for us.

Ná habair é, a Mhaidhc. Nó mar a deir siad i Joisey Nua,
Yó, tá f'n fáilte romhat, a bhuddaí.

Cá bhfuil do rang Gaeilge i gConnecticut, a Mhaidhc? Múiním i Sturbridge, MA, in aice leis an dteorann CT.

So, when are youse guys from New England gonna come up wit your own Irish dialect?

The dialect here is just very traditional Irish, except "r" is ALWAYS silent.
Not as easy as it sounds . . . only native New Englanders have managed it thus far.

And whenever we hear "Tá fáilte romhat", we obligingly nick the silverware.

The dialect here is just very traditional Irish, except "r" is ALWAYS silent.

Scríobh Cionaodh: Ná habair é, a Mhaidhc.

Ná habair habaith é, a Mhaidhc, i canúint Shasana Nua, nach ea?

I can't find the website anymore, but one day while googling on linguistic terms, I came across a site that described how five different words in the English language in the Boston area are all pronounced exactly the same. Two of the words I remember are "bore," and "bar." I forget the other "tree," but the article seemed quite scholahly in naychah (that's "nature" for the rest of us.)

Ná habaith é, nach ea?

No, New Englanders would get the spelling right.
You just wouldn't hear the "r".
It would sound the same as when they say "harbour":
habba

Folks in the mid-Atlantic states stole all the "r"s here and sent them to Warshington, DC, where locals sprinkle them everywhere with abandon.