I am an Irish language beginner, and I have been somewhat confused lately with some points of pronunciation, especially with aspirated consonants. The general rule of thumb that I have learned is 'caol le caol, leathan le leathan.' However, I have heard recordings of the spoken language that seem to violate this rule in practice.

For example:

mo mháthir - this seems like it should be pronounced with a broad sound similar to 'w' (muh wah-hir), and yet I usually hear it pronounced with the slender 'v' sound (muh vah-hir).

Is this due to differences in dialect, or am I really missing something here?

Scott

Scott,

I think it's due to dialect differences. In Munster I think they pronounce it muh vah-hir, but wait for others to give their input, since I'm only a beginner.

The general state of things is that beta /β/ in medial and final position seems to always become comfused with a labiodental fricative as the dialect starts to lose native irish sounds.

In Conemara the rule seems to be that it is a semi-vowel (like w) at the start, prior to back vowels, and labiodental in all other positons between vowels.

Northern Dialects do the best of the original distinction.


Munster might have a vw vs normal english v, but I dont know. Ask Roomaan

.....beta /β/ in medial and final position seems to always become comfused with a labiodental fricative.....

A BRN, I enjoyed your answer, even if I don't understand all of it. I can't help but wonder what our long-time fellow member and contributor James would be thinking right now in regards to how to answer Scott's question.

I was just thinking that the labio-dental fricationated rendering as seen in the back consono-vowelated gutterations of conemara are not unlike the bi-labial glosso-pharyngated sonorations noted by the 4th century monk Curmudgenus in his penultamate manuscript, "Veritas sans Faecalis Bucolicus".

Now...for those of us less academically indoctrinated:

I've heard it most consistently pronounced as a "w" although I'm sure some dialects do give it a soft "v" rendering.

My source?

No less than Ros Na Rún!!

Ta tu sportuil a James, and I even used Roman's word for it too. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

ah yah, Chumhigh oraibh ar RtE 'Bualaí!' -nauir a bhí mé og, bhí fear sneaxhta ar ar teilfís, agus deirinn sé 'Bulaiaí, rock ye ye'!"

Ní deirinn sé "Beir bua agus beannacht', mar bheach sé 'ag rocaíl!"

Thanks for the input. It was nice to make use of my English dictionary for a change - the words are definitely easier to find than in Irish. Also, it's been a long time and my Latin must be pretty rusty - the manuscript title that James mentioned comes out something like 'Truth Without the Filth of Shepherds'??? I guess it's time to get a Latin dictionary as well...

I think he meant Bullshit. He was being facetious.

A James, tá tú ansin! Tá mé an-shasta go chonaic tú seo snáithe. Ní féidir mé a stopadh ag gaire! Agus tá an ceart ag Riona - tá tú an-ghreannmhar!(ciallaionn "greannmhar" sportuil go minic, ach amháin i Ghaeltacht sa Liotuáin )

FRC-GRMA

OK, I thought I would miss this one as there were heaps of people around who could answer this question. Faraor! Tánn sibh go léir astrae!

Let's come back to the original question of Sjdonohue. He apparently has fallen pray to all those "helpful" directions that state that such and such Irish sound is pronounced like English something. This is at least confusing as there are at least 3 different pronunciations in Irish as there are 3 dialects, and at worse - it is plainly wrong, as there are some Irish sounds that are absent from English altogether therefore trying to express them with English letters is simply misleading.

quote:

I have learned is 'caol le caol, leathan le leathan

This rule is for spelling, it has nothing to do with pronunciation.

quote:

mo mháthair - this seems like it should be pronounced with a broad sound similar to 'w'

here it goes. No, it is not "w". At least not in all of Ireland. It can be both "V" and "W" with no difference, these sounds sound the same to Irish ear.

quote:

and yet I usually hear it pronounced with the slender 'v' sound

The difference between slender "mh" and broad "mh" is not a difference between English "w" and "v". Both slender and broad "mh" can sound as "w" or "v" with no distinction. The difference between broad and slender sounds is in lip position. When you pronounce broad sound, lips make a tight circle, with slender they are spread as if you smile with a full mouth.

So you can have both "tight" v or w - it is broad sound. Then you have "smiling" v or w - it is slender sound.

quote:

It can be both "V" and "W" with no difference, these sounds sound the same to Irish ear.

I disagree with that statement, but agree with the rest. Although I'm not quite sure which Irish ear Róman means.

quote:

I disagree with that statement

I meant when "mh" pronounced, like in "mo mháthair". Both "v" and "w" mean the same in this position, so the difference is not significant.

quote:

which Irish ear Róman means.

Ear of a hypothetical monoglot native Irish speaker. Riona says there are still some.

tuigim. is fíor gur mheasc roinnt de lucht labhartha na gaeilge an dá fhuaim.

with Róman's gloss, I now agree with everything!

I'm afraid though that any monoglot Irish speakers are either very young, or suffering from dementia. Ríona's hearsay evidence I find very suspect.

(Message edited by aonghus on December 28, 2006)

Usually it's the native speakers of a language that identify and employ sounds that newcomers to that same language don't hear or comprehend. It looks like we have the complete opposite in this case. That is, Scott, James and I, who are at varying degrees of learning the Irish language hear a distinct difference at times between the pronunciation of mo mháthair, yet Róman with Aonghus's confirmation, indicate that there is no significant difference. In all due respect to our more learned contributors, I do think there is a difference in pronunciation and I think it has to do with dialect. Not withstanding the complex medical terminology used to describe the human voice, in Connemara speakers (Cois Fhairrge in particular) I hear a "w" sound, yet from Munster speakers I hear a "v" sound.

I would speculate that many other learners and native speakers alike hear the difference also.

My understanding of what Róman is saying is that the differences in sound do not matter. I agree.

It was a feature of Irish speakers new to english that they confused these two initial sounds in English.

A Mhic Léinn,

Ok let's make it clear. Neither Conamarian, nor Muntionian sound is neither English "v" nor "w". From SERIOUS studies I have read that the value of the sound pronounced varies even with the same speaker. The sound vacillitates between English "v" and "w" as two extremes at times being closer to one or another. But it is neither! That's why for native speakers it is the same sound. If your sound pronunciation depends only on you being tired/drunk - would you claim it is a different pronunciation?!

And yet generally Muntonian slender "mh" is more like "v", as Conamarian "mh" is as well. Broad sound in Munster can be both, but in Conamara it is more like "w". But again - these are just tendencies, not rigid rules. You can hear "w" in Munster as well. So if native speakers jungle those sounds with no apparent difference - why to concentrate on it??? V/W distinction is irrelevant in Irish - there are no words that are distinguished by these two allophones. It is crucial to distinguish BROAD ans SLENDER varieties - as those are different. Saying "w" for broad and "v" for slender WILL NOT DO! Both of these are BROAD to an Irishman.

Scríobh Róman: From SERIOUS studies I have read that the value of the sound pronounced varies even with the same speaker.

Oh, I think I'm starting to understand based on your remark above. Thanks for your patience in explaining this issue to me. I often hear a difference between the way broad "mh" and "bh" sounds are pronounced and have attributed it to dialect. But, I suppose it's similar to how the same English-language speaker will say goin' and sometimes going for the word going. I know it's not a good analogy, but for me it expresses how native speakers (of English for example) will pronounce a word differently at times.

Go raibh maith agaibh a Róman agus a Aonghuis.

Thanks for everybody's input, especially Róman - the tip about mouth positioning for broad vs. slender pronunciation was really helpful.

Also, I have a question for Aonghus: In your posting today at 10:31 AM your first sentence was in Irish - 'tuigim. is fíor gur mheasc roinnt de lucht labhartha na gaeilge an dá fhuaim.'

I was able to halfway translate that as 'I understand. It is actually a mix of several Irish speakers (something, something).'

Am I anywhere close on this translation??

It is true that some speakers of Irish mix up the two sounds.

Is fíor * gur mheasc * roinnt * de * lucht labhartha na gaeilge * an dá fhuaim
Is true * that mixed * some * of * those who speak irish * the two sounds

Clarification.

My research concerns Irish speakers with limited (not very much) English. I know Aonghus doesn't believe me and I can respect that since his view is the commonly excepted one. I mean no disrespect to himself in my firm belief to the contrary of his position.

If you speak to all in the Gaeltacht in Irish, old and young, the best way to be sure, then how do you know what someone's English is like? Now obviously all the people the young or middle aged have great English but with very old people, as Jonas was surprised to find on Inis Meain, maybe you just might be surprised.

I'm not denying the fact that this is very rare, I'm just saying that from what I've gathered it does happen.

Beir bua agus beannacht

quote:

hearsay evidence I find very suspect

quote:

from what I've gathered it does happen

Ríona, ar bhuail tú féin riamh le duine de na daoine seo?
Nó an scéal scéil é?

A Dhennis a chara,

If you are asking me if I've met such people or if I've only heard stories then my answer is that I've never met such a person. But Eibhlin the woman I stayed with in An Daingean knows one and I wrote to him a Christmas card which the all of you kindly helped me translate.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Maith thú, a Ríona. Thuig tú mo chuid Gaeilge!

Scéal scéil atá ann, mar sin. An bhfuil an ceart ag Eibhlín? Níl a fhios againne. Ní ghlactar le scéal scéil sna cúirteanna, ná i measc lucht eolaíochta. An t-aon áit a nglactar le scéal scéil go fonnmhar ná i gcúrsaí cúlchainte agus i gcúrsaí creidimh. An saghas creidimh í an Ghaeilge anois?

(Message edited by dennis on December 28, 2006)

Fiú i gcursaí creidimh, bíonn udarás an, agus muinín sa scéalaí i gceist.

quote:

An saghas creidimh í an Ghaeilge anois?

Is ea anseo, go hairithe agus í á phlé tré Bhéarla.

Nar léigh tú leabhar Leviticus de réir Fear na mBróg! (Neamhghlan, neamhghlan)

Cen?

Of course I think Eibhlin is right. I get the impression from what I could desipher that you are quite skepticle and that is just fine you have every right to believe what you like as do I. Your message was quite the long one to try and figure out.

Beir bua agus beannacht

That last message was to Dennis.

Scríobh Riona: Your message was quite the long one to try and figure out.

A Riona, is brea liom nuair a scríobh tú as Gaeilge! Sílim gur deacair a scríofa agus a léamh as Gaeilge, ach is an-mhór na duaiseanna iad!

FRC-GRMA

At least I'm not the only one who thinks it can be hard. But you are very good at writing as Gaeilge a Mhic Leinn.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Tá daoine ann a chreideann go bhfuil an ivory billed woodpecker beo fós. Bhíodh daoine i ndóchas go mbeadh an baiji beo fós san abhainn Yangtze. Sa dá chás seo, chuaigh daoine amach á lorg. Ní raibh siad sásta le scéal scéil agus wishful thinking. Mar a deir an seanfhocal, "déanann feiceáil fírinne".

Tá ivory billed woodpecker beo fós, dáirire píre! Feic pictiúr seo: http://www.birds.cornell.edu/ivory/

Campephilus principalis abú!

Conas dearfa ivory-billed woodpecker as Gaeilge?

FRC-GRMA

cnagaire éabhair ghobach, seans.

I very much enjoyed and learned from this thread. I was even able to read parts of the Gaelic!

Go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis. Is dúshlán é an cás ginideach.

FRC-GRMA

quote:

cnagaire éabhair ghobach

Tá an múnla seo le fáil in Eolaí Póca: Éin:

Faoileán Ceanndubh
Foitheach Píbdhubh
Glasóg Cheannghorm
Gobadán Cosbhuí
Guilbneach Earrdhubh

Mar sin, "Cnagaire Gobeabhartha" ??

tá dealramh le sin, Dennis.

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis.

Cnagaire Gobeabhartha Abú!

Scríobh mé thuas: Is dúshlán é an cás ginideach.


Ceartúchán: Is dúshlán í an thuiseal ghinideach.

FRC-GRMA

quote:

Is dúshlán í an thuiseal ghinideach.

Gar, but no cigar.

Is focal firinscneach é an focal "tuiseal", mar sin:

Is dúshlán é an tuiseal ginideach.

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis. Ach rinne mé iarracht, dáiríre! Chonaic mé tuiseal sa leabhar Gramadach Na Gaeilge agus Litriú na Gaeilge agus shíl me go ciallaionn an giorruchán f feminine. Bhi mé mícheart. Ciallaíonn f firinscneach - duh!

Todóga? Tá todóga go leor agam. Thug m'iníon bosca todóg ag Nollaig!

quote:

Thug m'iníon bosca todóg ag Nollaig!

Tá focal ar lár anseo: Thug m'iníon bosca todóg dom. Recall that the verb tabhair can mean "give" or "take" (among other things) depending on the preposition, which you really can't neglect in a statement like this.

Rud eile: deirtear "um Nollaig" de ghnáth. Cén fáth? Níl a fhios agam. It's just one of those idioms!

Go raibh maith agat a Dennis. After submitting my posting, I realized that I forgot to include the indirect object, which I thought would have been mé, which, thanks to your help above, would have been wrong. Some day I'll get a handle on using prepositions correctly. And I didn't know that tabhair was a "give and take" kinda thing depending on the preposition - cool!

Thug m'iníon bosca todóg dom um Nollaig - voila!

To go back to the v and w issue -I get the impression that Rómán actually failed to explain it, or rather only Aonghus and Rómán understood -the rest now don't and were misled by their own confusion/ignorance.


This is what I see:

There is a broad vs slender difference in voiced bilabials, such that 'craiceann na láimhe', 'ar an láimh' sound different to 'lámh'. That is to say, the difference is phonemic, they are two different sounds used which are coded by 'imh' or 'amh'.


In the dialect books, even when Irish was in full tilt, one always had varience in a) what a speaker used, or b) what an area used. What the b) community used is what we are concerned about when we talk about irish. A particular person may have an impediment vary or just vary. There are natives on record as having a Parisian uvular r for broad irish one, but that is not general.


My response alluded to some work that shows Conemara allows a semi-vowel (broad) at the beginning, and tends towards a sound that is, individually, seen as 'slender'; Donegal seems to apply the rule in all cases, so you hear 'bhaile', 'abhaile', 'lámh' with a rounded lip articulation almost always, but in other areas of the West or South, the 'phonotactics' (rules that constrain a sound to appear or not appear), now seem to allow either a more spread or a more round articulation at the beginning, WITH NO IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE, in Munster. Conemara tends toward 'broad' at beginning where oine expects broad, but is free runnig in other positions, but a clear statistical preference for a more 'slender' form. So, there are rules for when it is important or not.

What this means is the sound change has made the coding more complex, as you still have a broad/slender difference, but the range of sound has become so lax in some areas specific to a dialect, that in those specific areas, the difference is no longer phonemcic. Conemara from Ó Siadhail seems to have a lot of strong plurals were attenuation might eb expected, maybe this is related, maybe not. The chaneg might be going so far, that some words have a broad and slender diff at the end, and others not, so have to use a strong plural.

Ragardless, the fricative sounds seems to undergo the most damage, perhaps as English is not as developed there as Irish, and exerts a reducing selective pressure in this respect.


I think that in native irish, the force on the bilabial that made 'beta' what it is, is been lost, to the degree that it is a semi-vowel in intial and medial positon, and just disappears at the end (ubh or lámh -->ú or lá), whereas in history it would be stronger at the end.

Maybe we are seeing that if you are weaker in your srticulation there ends up less of a difference (on average) between the ranges of the broad and slender forms, and coupled with varient contexts for articulation where differences are clearer/less clear, one can see that broad and slender might one day be just a positional thing, before just becomeing wholly incidental. Ironic, like the opposite way to how it started in the beginning, 1500+ years ago.


PS, the irish post I made above was in response to something on another thread. I was so drunk I must have posted in the wrong spot. I also thought Mac Leinn was Rómán!

PPS, I was not trying to be smart, and I understand James' point, but I must add that if we dont operationaise grammatical and phono elemetents, we cannot have a clear discussion about them.

BRN,

I always was under impression that I received basic phonetic training at university. So I read all dialect treatises with no difficult. But... the post above is beyond me, I am afraid. If this was meant as "clarification" for my post - I don't think you succeeded in your goal.

p.s. Using terms like "uvular fricative", "phonotactics" etc is not very helpful for beginners

(Message edited by Róman on December 31, 2006)

Note: just skip to the end if you have little patience!

Sorry about that -but I was just adding that I saw that a possible conflabualtion of broad/slender, precise articulation, phonemic, and context of speech would occur.

I think some people will be confused by my poor way of putting forward the imformation, and give it a miss as a consequence. I'll admit, the post is thick and not to easy to read.

Your explanation above, will give people a false sense of that broad and slender dont exist -which is what I think has happened. This is not your fault

As for terms such as 'uvular' etc, as I said, terms of reference and operationalisation must occur for clear communication. Maybe I dont explain too well, and you explain better, but the readers are confused by their own ignorance. Clearer authors often lull the ignorant into feeling they have more knowledge than is really the case.

In a sense, one might not be able to explain the differences till a) everyone is on the same wavelenght, and b) a clear manner of explanation is available to all


Attempt at repost:

The basic idea that the reader needs to understand is that broad and slender exist, and they act to creat a DISTINCTION, ie, two sounds exist in opposition.
However, each 'sound' (of the two) when spoken is but one of a number of very similar sounds (a nebula), the particualr one to be exployed varying depending on several factors).

Words have rules for when you can employ one sound or not. In Irish, a cluster of t, r, p, t, g, t would not be allowed, as it diverges from normal, average, usage.

ONce apon a time, the broad and slender rule existed apparently, very clearly, for 'abh' and 'ibh' as the broad bh was very strong, stronger than w in English 'will'. Slender version was stronger than the v in English v in 'very' and was bilabial too (no teeth touching lip)

Nowadays, as English 'hissy sounds' undermine the Irish ones, a strong demarcation between 'abh' and 'ibh' is less certain, and I postulated a few reasons, why *I* think, just me, why it might be occuring.

O Quiggin in 'A Dialect of Donegal' states that broad and slender have not become confused 'as in Arran' (I think he is referring to the Aran Islands here). To me, there is a massive difference between broad and slender, so I wonder why they might have come confused, especially as English semi-vowel and labiodental fricative v are so very different.

Maybe, like as you say, since natives when there were moneglots, saw English sounds sometimes as just allophones of their normal articulation, they got folded in and this was passed on to their kids, who now had an option.

Anyway, by just copying the dialect books and then listening to natives today, it is clear that 'abh' is more of a semi-vowel by virtue of its easier articulation. Logically, the broad and slender difference can still be kept:

Trad Irish broad	β	βʲ	Trad irish slender
Semi vowel/ approximate	w/β˕	v	English labiodental
South German v?	ʋ	v	English labiodental

(Now I know the use of the /βʲ/ as a symbol does not make sense, as it varies in having a glide or not, and is not really palatised, but I dont know what symbol to use. Also, the difference between semi-vowel and approximate is not an issue for irish as spoken)

To finish: what in the end I was trying to say is that some dialets seem to have relaxed the difference IN CERTAIN PLACES, like at the beginning of nouns as IRISH NOUNS INFLECT FOR PLURAL AND CASE AT THE END, so initally (lenition and eclipsis excepted) the difference is not so important. I also agree natives vary in their range with respect to English lip sounds.



just read this:

So to the heel of the hunt: the brains of natives use broad and slender somewhat more contextualised than grammar books, and at the start of a word the difference is not that important. It is however, often very important at the end as it can mean the difference between a singualr and a plural. If a dialect did get rid of the dsitinction if would have to add a vowel or a suffix to compensate (láimh --> láimhe, as I think it might be in Conemara)

quote:

Your explanation above, will give people a false sense of that broad and slender dont exist

Oh, no! Complete misapprehension of my intentions!!!

BROAD-SLENDER distinction is absolutely ESSENTIAL in Irish. And it clearly exists both in writing and pronunciation. What I was trying to say all along in my post that the distinction BROAD/SLENDER "mh" is in no way distinction of English "v" and "w" as is WRONGLY stated in many internet resources. Both sounds "v" and "w" are considered BROAD in Irish, SLENDER "mh" simply DOES NOT EXIST in English. So there is no way you can demonstrate how to pronounce it by giving some English letters combination. This was my message. Sorry if I confused anyone.


Actually this discussion is a reincarnation of slender t/d debate just in disguise. I begin to speak like Jonas - PLEASE learn IPA, don't believe all those "ah-uh-oh" descriptions - they are simply WRONG for one simple truth: the English herself has thousands of dialects so "ah" in Arizona is not the same as in Montana, Dublin, Perth or Bristol. So when people THINK they understood how to pronounce - actually they act like Chinese who have the same hieroglyphes that they read in a completely different way!

Ya, well I had not thought about a lot of the stuff above till you pointed it out, or I imagined you pointed it out

"BROAD-SLENDER distinction is absolutely ESSENTIAL in Irish. And it clearly exists both in writing and pronunciation"

I know, but I just added that there is evidence of where it has been undercut. It migt be of note that spirants seem to have been must affected by interference from English -native english speakers dont like what ch, gh, mh, bh stand for, broad or slender, or maybe its because they are a wide class, so we see their attenuation more acutely

Actually a lot of my posting above is apparently contradictory and confusing as I'm not a linguist and have not been formally trained. I'm not saying that I made it all up, but I did not carry it well.

Thankfully this is a place one can work things out with no danger!

'Sé do bheatha, a BhRN!

I begin to speak like Jonas - PLEASE learn IPA, don't believe all those "ah-uh-oh" descriptions

I've enjoyed this thread immensely, even though I don't understand it all. It seems that Scott, the original poster, got the answer he wanted, we've had a much-needed cameo appearance by James with his unfailing wit, and an in-depth discussion to boot.

But I would like to understand, without using English examples per Róman's advice above, how to properly pronounce the "mh" in mo-mháthair and was wondering if this linguistics site, http://www.uiowa.edu/~acadtech/phonetics/# cited on another thread recently, would contain the correct symbol and/or example of how to pronounce the (various?) forms of "mh," especially the slender form.

Go raibh maith agaibh.

/mə wɑːrʹ/ or /mə wɑːhərʹ/

sa chéad chuid, bíonn sé le 'w' i mBéarla (glide), ach an fhoirm i stair agus le deireanas, i ngach cuideacha eile déliopach cuimilteach (?) (bilabial fricative).

Ar an zite a thug aon duine lastuas, ceapaim go bhfuil an gilde go deas mar a úsáid i gcóramh ga ghráth (de gnáth) --> 'abaile' [əwɑlʲə] SRL

"'abaile' [əwɑlʲə] SRL"


Nuair a bhíonn sé leathan. Agus, cur an roth air (round the lips)

Le caol, bí ag gáire agus thú a dhéanamh an guth! (the phone/sound)

Sa stair, is mór idir bh 'is mh, mar tá an céad gan srónach, an dara le srónach

Kieran and BRN - thanks.

For some unkown reason all the IPA characters in your posting above show up as little squares. I've tried changing the encoding, but to no avail. Any ideas?

GRMA

Faigh Gentium:

http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&item_id=Gentium_downloa d

'is cur i do fhillteán na bhFonts

Maidir le [v] agus [w] Chonamara, ní mór a rá gur fíor do Róman. Tá bhur ndóthaint somplacha deasa le fáil in "Irish of Iorras Aithneach" Uí Chulánaigh. I gcoitinne, tugadh faoi deara gob é [v] atá nochtaithe sna focla a bhfuil meáchant déanta orthab, sa chuile áit istigh den fhocal: sin ráite, is ard an féidrearthacht go mbíonn "MHMHMHMHMHMAIGHDEAN!!!" - agus hóbar don túlán uisce fiuchtaí titim anuas as do lámha - cláraithe le [v] cuimilteach láidir, etc.
Tá [v] le cloisteáil in Inis Oírr (agus mb'fhéidir in Árainn uilig) roimh ghutha, e.g. "i bhfad" [@ `vad], cé go bhfuil [w], nach mór, i dtosach focail is sylable ar Mórthír Chonamara (i mo thuairmsa).

Maidir le cainteoirí Gaeilge gan smid Bhéarla acab, well, tá aithne agam ar bhean sna seachtóidí as Inis Oírr. So, cé go mb'as Inis Oírr a maime, ní raibh síse measúil ar chor ar bith faoin nGaeilge (na tríochaidí agus cearachaidí den fichiú haois atá i gceist) agus níor labhair sí ach Béarla lena clann agus comharsanna amach is amach. Sin ráite, fiú amháin na bpobail scoite iarghúlta ar nós Árainn, tá siad dátheangach le blianta anuas.

Dennis, mara miste leat é, meas tú, cén sanasaíocht atá ag "in ann"?

Peter

"'abhaile' [əwɑlʲə] SRL"

The sound is [l], not [lʲ]. [lʲ] doesn't exist in Irish, the closest sound is [λ] (double slender l, so /L'/ in phonology.

In Donegal and Connaught, you have "buile" [ˈbʷɪlɪ] vs "buille" [ˈbʷɪλɪ].

In Munster, the sound [λ] doesnˈt exist, they have only one slender l: [l].

A Lughaidh,
sa stair, nach rabh 4 difríochta sa l-anna?

l̪ˠ	ʎ
lˠ	l

Má tá difríocht idir /l/ 'is /lʲ/, cén sort l atá an /lʲ/ i gceist?

Thanks BRN for the help with fonts. I tried the Gentium fonts, but still get little squares for some of the characters instead of the IPA characters. I could read (understand is a different issue) all of Peter's post above, but Lughaidh's post has squares in it. I wonder if there's another way to be able to ready the posts clearly.

I wonder why that is? Maybe you need to try a few different phonetic fonts.

There is a link for poncaithe here: http://www.phouka.com/gaelic/title.html

I'll look to see what fonts I installed (if I can make out what I did)

Mac Léinn na Gaeilge,

I looked at Lughaidh's post on a Mac (10.4.8) with Gentium installed and a PC (XP SP2) without Gentium. It rendered correctly on both, using Safari, IE and Firefox.

You wouldn't be using an older version of Windows would you?

Caoimhín

Bhí ceithre sheort l-ann i Sean-Ghaeilg agus tá go fóill i nGaeilg Uladh (3 i gConamara, 2 i Mumhain).

/l'/ = [l] = plain alveolar l, as in English "to live".
/L/ = [l̪ˠ] = dental velarised l
/l/ = [lˠ] = alveolar velarised, as in English "will" (but maybe that's just in UK English)
/L'/ = [λ] = palatal l, as in Standard Spanish llamar. You make an l sound and a y-sound at the same time. It makes you pronounce your l in the middle of the hard palate.

You'll hear these sounds in the Irish lessons on phouka.com (I did the recordings).

About [lʲ], I don't know the difference between it and [λ]. Anyway, the Spanish ll and the Irish double slender l are written [λ] in the IPA. I've never seen [lʲ] in books.

Last time I wrote that [lʲ] didn't exist in Irish 'cause I had in mind that it was [l] + a [ʲ] sound. But actually I was mistaken, I think, since [ʲ] isn't a sound, it just shows that the preceding sound is palatalised. I was mixed-up with [j] sound, I thought of [lj]. [lj] would be a different sound from [λ], because [lj] is [l] followed by [j], while [λ] has both sounds at the same time...

Anyway, as I said, Irish /L'/ is written [λ] in the IPA so what I wasn't wrong :-)

Lughaidh,
would you be will to parse a sequence of symbols if I wrote out those from Irish? that is, if I write out the sounds of Irish, would you be willign to quickly check them, as I suspect the symbols are contradictory (/pʲ/ from a bi-labial 'slender' sound, altho I dont know how to symbolise spread lips, and I don't want just p to do as it might be confusing.

Caoimhín,

Thanks for your help, but I don't know much about computer-operating systems. We're running Windows XP here at home and at work. Looks like from here at home, most of the symbols come across for Lughaidh's posts, but there are still a few squares. I'll keep trying.

Go raibh míle maith agat.

I just noticed that here at home Kieran's posting comes across fine. Thanks everyone!

Looks like the symbols come across better here at home. Thanks Caoimhin and everyone!

Lughaidh, I don't think you're right to say that Connaught has [l]. In Connaught they have L, L' and l', but not l. And N, N' and n' but not n. That is certainly how it is presented in Learning Irish and seems to match the pronunciation on the tapes.

quote:

I don't think you're right to say that Connaught has [l]

Actually the same is true about Munster. Although it is never advertised, but technically speaking there are [L] and [N] there, but no [l] neither [n].

I cant see where he says that above, but I can see where a confusion might arise.

In irish dialect books: /l/ =lax velarised l which does/used to be in opposition to /L/, fortis dental velarised l

In IPA: /l/ used to denote a plain alveolar l (commonly refered to as a 'slender l' in common parlance) which stands in opposition to the fortis or long l slender /ʎ/ where the front of the tongue presses agin the hard palat and the tip of the tongue digs into the bottom teeth.

There seems to be a mix up in people's minds given the overlap in symbols

As for Munster, I heard an interview snippit of a naitve from Oiléan Chléire from the 50's. He had dark velarised l and n ([l̪ˠ] and [n̪ˠ]), but today, you hear dental l and n with just plain articulation. Its fair to say that native speakers from Munster are increasingly simialr in sound to English speakers form the region.

quote:

Its fair to say that native speakers from Munster are increasingly simialr in sound to English speakers

Nach ach an fadhb Mhuman é sin, an ea?

(Message edited by Róman on January 09, 2007)

Ní hionann Cléire agus an Mumhan ar fad.

Is cinnte go bhfuil tionchar ag gaeilge agus béarla ar a chéile, agus an tionchar sin níos laidre sna breac gaeltachtaí. Agus tá Cleire, go bhfios dom, sách breac!

Ach, mar shampla. tá aithne agam ar fear a tógadh i Sasana. Is rí leir sin nuair a labhrann sé Béarla; ach ní léir é nuair a labhrann sé gaeilge.

Scéal casta.

quote:

Ní hionann Cléire agus an Mumhan ar fad.

That's debatable. Cléire is A PART of Mumha anyway. And to preclude response - Cléire's dialect is basically the same as Múscraí's. The differences are only in pronunciation, and there is enough of fingers ar mo láimh to enumerate all of them (very minor by all means).

quote:

Is cinnte go bhfuil tionchar ag gaeilge agus béarla ar a chéile

Níl sé cinnte i n-aon chor. Do bhí tionchar ag Gaelainn ar Bhéarla fadó-fadó, agus anois níl ach an tionchar Béarla ar Ghaelainn dhílis, sna Gaeltachtaíbh fós!

quote:

breac gaeltachtaí

Nach na Gaeltachtaí go léir breac-ghaeltachtaí i láthair?

Bhuel, cheannaigh ma am ar Ghaeltalk, 'is bíonn siad ag caint le a lán fuaimeanna an Bhéarla; Éist le Iarla Ó Lionáird a' rá, bíonn ma bhlas i mBéarla níos gaelacha! (Dióc!)

"Nach na Gaeltachtaí go léir breac-ghaeltachtaí i láthair?"

Ceapann ma -bhual nach bhfuil gach duine le Béarla fresin?


It's been quiete clear for a long time that a) Munster lovers dont know the difference between 'accent' and 'different phonemes', b) I can't spell bery well

Tá cuid acu níos brice ná a chéile!

quote:

That's debatable

Cén fáth? Níl i gCléire ach ceantar beag des na ceantar Gaeltachata sa Mhumhain - a chuimsíonn an Rinn agus an tSeanaphobail, Musgraí, Cléire, Uibh Rathach agus Corca Dhuibhne (an gaeltacht is laidre sa Mhumhain).

quote:

cheannaigh ma, Ceapann ma

Tá a fhios agam gur ionnan "inniubh" "ma" i nUngáiris, ach ní fheadar i nGaelainn?

quote:

Munster lovers dont know the difference between 'accent' and 'different phonemes'

???

quote:

Tá cuid acu níos brice ná a chéile!

Tánn tú am' chur ag gáire! I reminds me of a joke of a girl being "more pregnant" that the other!

quote:

an Rinn agus an tSeanaphobail, Músgraí, Cléire, Uíbh Ráthach agus Corca Dhuibhne

And? What are you trying to tell us? Except for very different idioms in An Rinn and Corca Dhuibhne - whole of Munster (Cléire included) had very uniform dialect, of which only Baile 'n Sceilg, Múscraí and Cléire are left. Cléire dialect is TYPICAL of Munster Irish, and not exception in any way as Corca Dhuibhne is sometimes.

quote:

an gaeltacht is láidre sa Mhumhain

I would not say that I felt exceptionally more Gaelainnesque in Ceann Tráigh than I felt in Béal Átha'n Ghaorthaigh. There is a lot of stereotyping when talking about strength of gaeltachts.


p.s. Aonghus, do you remember what is the difference between Uibh Laoghaire vs. Uíbh Laoghaire.

Soory bad habit; personal pronouns supressed in their vowel length after verbs. I will s'eee' to it next time

quote:

personal pronouns supressed in their vowel length

My dear friend, I am used to seeing "me" or even "mi" in place of "mé", but "ma" (?!) is something new! Therefore, I dared to ask if there is more to it than eye meets

Baile le Béarla ag ea Ceann Trá go dtí le deanaí.

Siar ó thuaidh i gCorca Dhuibhne atá an Ghaeilge le clos.

Agus ó thaobh daonra, is láidre Corca Dhuibhne ná aon Ghaeltacht eile i gCúige Mumhain.

I think the place that does it most reguraly is Donegal -the end of the verb often becomes a scwha, or so I think, cheannaigh mé [...@ m'e], but the e seems to be lower than in Connacht and nearer to [ӕ], or so it seems, so 'a' in 'ma' is e, only I used a different letter.

Simple eh?

A BhRiN,

If it is all about inventing non-existing spellings and confusing everybody - just tell me. I will know how to react in the future.

And this -

quote:

the e seems to be lower than in Connacht

is kind of misunderstanding. All dialects have a little bit different vowels (allophones) - that is why they are dialects. So basing spelling on the fact that your dialect pronounces allophones differently is outright ridiculuos.

I was only playing with forms, but I should me methodical and clear, I agree

would you be will to parse a sequence of symbols if I wrote out those from Irish? that is, if I write out the sounds of Irish, would you be willign to quickly check them, as I suspect the symbols are contradictory (/pʲ/ from a bi-labial 'slender' sound, altho I dont know how to symbolise spread lips, and I don't want just p to do as it might be confusing.

As far as I know there isn't any symbol to show that the lips are spreading when doing a slender bilabial consonant. What I do is to put an apostroph after them. Actually I have never seen Irish transcribed in real IPA. In all books, people use phonology, which isn't precise at all if you don't explain somewhere how the phonemes are realised...


Lughaidh, I don't think you're right to say that Connaught has [l]. In Connaught they have L, L' and l', but not l. And N, N' and n' but not n. That is certainly how it is presented in Learning Irish and seems to match the pronunciation on the tapes.

Actually the same is true about Munster. Although it is never advertised, but technically speaking there are [L] and [N] there, but no [l] neither [n].

Both of you are mixing up phonology and phonetics. In Irish, N, L, n', l' etc are phonemes (so you use them when dealing with phonology). In phonetics, you deal with sounds.
You write phonology between slashes // and phonetics between square brackets [].

Let's take l's
in Ulster:
the phoneme /L/ (phonology) is realised as: [l̪ˠ] (phonetics)
/L'/: [λ]
/l'/: [l]
/l/: [lˠ]

In Connemara:
/L/: [l̪ˠ] (I think)
/L'/: [λ]
/l'/: [l]

In Munster:
/l/: [lˠ]
/l'/: [l]


In phonology, the symbols you use for phonemes are just whatever you want. You could use triangles or stars to represent one of your phonemes if you want. You just have to write somewhere what sounds they refer to. In some Irish books, the y-sound is refered to by the symbol /j/, in others by the symbol /ɣ´/. But it's the same phoneme, just the authors have chosen a different symbol in their books.

In phonetics, you don't choose the symbols, they have been chosen by the people who have made the IPA chart and now they don't change. There is one symbol for one sound and the symbols don't change if you have the same sound, even in different languages.

Lughaidh, I am not talking about phonology but phonetics.

In phonetic transcription, Conemara has:

/L/: [l̪ˠ] (I think)
/L'/: [λ]
/l'/: [lʲ], not [l] - note this sound is not found in English.

I know you are claiming that /l/ in Ulster corresponds to [lˠ] and /l'/ to [l], and you have said these correspond phonetically to 2 English l's, in "will" and "live", but as a native English speaker I am not sure you know how the l's in "will" and "live" are realized in English. Most English people pronounce the "l" in "will" like a "w" actually - the tongue does not touch the roof of the mouth at all! I have listened to the Learning Irish tapes and I believe the [l'] is slightly palatalized and not exactly the same as the l in "live".

I understand what you are saying: you are saying [l'] is an English clear l and not a dark l, but that is not quite right. Take Ó Siadhial's transcription of "fliuch" as [f'l'ox]: to realize the [l'] as just the clear l in "live" is just not right.

To the original poster, Scott,
When I was learning English (as a baby) and Irish and other languages, I didn't focus on all the details of differences you've read about here in the way you've read about it here. I know it helps some people and it's a love for others, but sometimes it can be really confusing. When I was learning Irish I listened to people and then imitated and spoke back to them.
I had teachers from different regions and I imitated their styles of talking. For me it was all about dialects. When I had a teacher from Cork I used v more. When I was in the west it was w more although I did notice that v more often on the Aran islands than on the mainland.
'Hope that helps,
Tá súil agam go bhfuil tú ag baint taitneamh as an nGaeilge,

quote:

In phonology, the symbols you use for phonemes are just whatever you want. You could use triangles or stars to represent one of your phonemes if you want. You just have to write somewhere what sounds they refer to. In some Irish books, the y-sound is refered to by the symbol /j/, in others by the symbol /ɣ´/. But it's the same phoneme, just the authors have chosen a different symbol in their books.

In phonetics, you don't choose the symbols, they have been chosen by the people who have made the IPA chart and now they don't change. There is one symbol for one sound and the symbols don't change if you have the same sound, even in different languages.

The choice of a symbol for a phoneme is not an arbitrary thing. It is established by the main allophone of the phoneme in question. There are different schools of phonetic notation, but anyhow it's your explanation of what the sign in question stands for, that is significant for understanding the substance.

quote:

Let's take l's
in Ulster:
the phoneme /L/ (phonology) is realised as: [l̪ˠ] (phonetics)
/L'/: [λ]
/l'/: [l]
/l/: [lˠ]

In Connemara:
/L/: [l̪ˠ] (I think)
/L'/: [λ]
/l'/: [l]

In Munster:
/l/: [lˠ]
/l'/: [l]

Saying this you pick up only one allophone (instance or realisation, no matter what you call it) of a phoneme. But, say the older symbol /L/ in Connemara may stand for all the range of lateral sonorants varying from interdental to post-alveolar, from voiced through partially voiced to devoiced, etc. etc. And there is in fact tendency to not use the symbols /L/, /N/ when the distinction of "fortis"/"lenis" is insignificant. So, in Connemara it's /l/, /L'/, /l'/, /n/, /N'/, /n'/, where /l/ has an dental lateral sonorant as its main allophone, and /n/ has an alveolar nasal sonorant as its main allophone.

BTW Ní Chasaide (1995) claims 3 way destinction (a la Connamara's triplets) in Gaoth Dobhair Irish. I haven't read that paper.

I hope I've brought in some more confusion :)

Peter

Most English people pronounce the "l" in "will" like a "w" actually - the tongue does not touch the roof of the mouth at all!

It wasn't that sound I meant, but the sound [lˠ]. Where do people pronounce the ll of "will" that way?

The choice of a symbol for a phoneme is not an arbitrary thing. It is established by the main allophone of the phoneme in question.

It IS an arbitrary thing. When the main allophone is something like [l̪ˠ], will you use that complicated symbol as your phoneme?

For the Ulster [λ], why do people use /L'/ ? Is /L'/ based on the main allophone, so to say [λ] ?

BTW Ní Chasaide (1995) claims 3 way destinction (a la Connamara's triplets) in Gaoth Dobhair Irish. I haven't read that paper.

Could you please give me the reference of that paper? I'd be interested in reading it. What I say about Gweedore Irish is based of what I have heard by some speakers there and what some teachers have told me.

Some young speakers make a difference between a leabaidh (his bed) and a leabaidh (her bed), and between a lón (his lunch) and a lón (her lunch).

I know that most younger speakers have 3 or 2 phonemes for l's, n's and r's, but some have more, and older speakers have more too.

Lughaidh, they pronounce "dark l" as a "w" in most of southern English. It is known as "Estuary English". See http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/estuary/whatis.htm , which is the Phonetics dept of University College London for an discussion of this. So, comparison with English mean nothing to me!

By the way, Lughaidh, unfortunately, Estuary English is the accent I speak!

Milk = miuk
student = shchudent

"BTW Ní Chasaide (1995) claims 3 way destinction (a la Connamara's triplets) in Gaoth Dobhair Irish. I haven't read that paper"


Ní Chasaide, Ailbhe (1999). “Irish.”, In: Handbook of the International Phonetic Association. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 111–16.

And Lughaidh -she counts the English r there too...

And Lughaidh -she counts the English r there too...

Some people; especially younger ones, do use sometimes the English r in Gweedore Irish, especially at the end of words. I don't like that sound in Irish, especially because it makes the spoken language less clear.

As for l fortis and lenis slender, I find that if you make [l] more long and force it up the ridge more, it seems to sound the same as [λ]

Now, if ones makes [l] in initial and final position, it seems to go from plain to palatal, 'live' to (for me) 'dunkil', a farm word, which has an l liek in Irish. The difference might just be psychological, but you can't deny that Kieran has pointed out that it is not just him that feels it is palatised to some degree.

Now the dialect studies indicate that [l] tends to be most clear from [λ] in final position

alveolar t and d seem very near to [l], and natives when asked in Mayo thought they were in the palatal class, even if they are plain, so 'psychoacoustically' and 'actually' may be different things in reality