A language is a means of communication. In order for two people to be able to communicate, they both must speak the same language.

What does it mean though to speak a particular language? What does it mean to say that a person speaks English but that they don't speak French?

In my mind, I picture languages as reservoirs. Consider two reservoirs side by side, one labelled "English", the other labelled "Francais" (excuse the spelling!). These reservoirs are full of words and grammatical templates. If you want to say something in French, you can dip into the French reservoir, using whatever words and grammatical structures are in there. If you want to say something in English, you go for the English reservoir.

I find it disconcerting from time to time watching TG4 -- when people speak Irish, I would expect them to pick from the Irish reservoir... but it seems that all too often they delve into the English reservoir. And I'm not talking about new-fangled words like "protozoa" either, I'm talking everyday words and terms. Just today, I heard someone speaking Irish on TG4 say "babysitter" and "ring tone". The most disconcerting piece of Irish I've ever heard is:

Beidh mé ag babysiteáil anocht.

It sickens me to think that these speakers are all too eager to delve into the English reservoir when there's a wealth of Irish vocabulary at their disposal. They're not speaking Irish as far as I'm concerned.

It has me thinking... is this how a language gets corrupt and polluted, by people abandoning its reservoir and going elsewhere in search of words?

Most of the time I get to speak Irish I've been drinking, and I tend to react rather "enthusiastically" when people use English words; someone spoke to me in Irish before and said the word "phone" -- I interrupted immediately and offered them the alternative: guthán.

I recall some time ago on this forum, that someone mentioned to me that the best way to get people to speak real Irish to you is to tell them that you don't speak English. That way, the English reservoir is out of bounds.

It's becoming more and more heart-breaking each time I hear some stupid English terms on an Irish television show.

That said though... I'm not sure how much I can blame one individual speaker for using English words, reason being that we pick up on what we hear, even if we don't like it! Just recently, I travelled away from my hometown. In the place I was staying, I noticed that casual cursing wasn't the norm, and I began to notice just how vulgar my own speech was. In the days I spent there, I found myself pausing mid-speech to censor myself, trying to find an alternative way to word what I was going to say. I wasn't doing this to fit in (so to speak) but rather because I genuinely aspired not to speak in such a vulgar way.

After having spent a few days away from home, I had stopped cursing altogether in casual speech. In the first few days I spent in my hometown, I was censoring my speech, but slowly but surely I began to slip back into the norm for the area. Sadly, I've already said the F word a few times in my casual speech today.

I don't live in a Gaeltacht, and that might be a slight blessing in a way, because it will stop me using stupid English bastardisations in the place of real Irish.

Anyway, I'd just thought I'd throw that out there and see what people think...

your absolutely right. i bloody hate it when i hear theses, to use your word, bastardisations. it insults the entire language.

for a long time, if not still, the primarily used French word for "babysitter" was "babysitter"

languages borrow from each other, it's not the end of the world. In fact, it could be argued that english's ability to rapidly assimilate foreign words is, at least in part, what allowed it to survive and permeate the world (that, and the british navy, of course).

Most of the words you use when speaking english are descendants of words borrowed from Norman French when that language dominated the tongue of the saxons. Many common words, everything from pajamas to galore are all acquisitions.

Irish is endangered, and therefore doesn't have the luxury of being as picky as a healthy language like French. It needs to be attractive to english speakers living in Ireland if it is to survive.

I hate riding the fence on an issue...

But in truth, to me this is one of those issues that I tend be just off to the side of the fence.

I agree that Irish doesn't have the luxury of creating a new word for everything...and I also agree that it is the nature of languages to borrow words.

But at the same time, I am also deeply disturbed at the idea of taking words from other languages because they don't exist in Irish and then giving them Irish spellings. It almost feels like we are saying Irish isn't good enough to have its own word for something, however, the other language's word isn't good enough for Irish...what kind of BS is that?

There are some people here who have argued that we can't change things because people have gotten use to doing things a certain way...however, words and there usages are constantly changing. Just look at slang...so who is to say we can't sit down and create new words...maybe even Irish words...for things?

I agree 100% with you there Fear na mBróg. I could never stand listening to that Hector gobshite.
Even on programmes from which you'd expect better like that documentary about different religions that was on sometime ago or ones with Manchán, whenever a word had to be used for which no Irish equivalent came immediately to mind they would simply use the English.
English and English pronunciation are treated as if they are the one true international standard. Fpr example: Islam , pharaoh , Julius Caesar etc. as if both the Irish pronunciation (or a pronunciation that would be natural for an Irish speaker) and the original/native pronunciation are simply variants of the 'correct' English form.
I think the greatest absurdity is how they pronounce the channnel's name TG4 'tee JEE ceathair'! Surely something like the names for the letters of the alphabet suggested in 'Learning Irish' would be better than simply using the English forms especially when, as with 'G', they make no sense in our language.
It's just plain laziness and a lack of confidence in the language.

"Surely something like the names for the letters of the alphabet suggested in 'Learning Irish' would be better than simply using the English forms especially when, as with 'G', they make no sense in our language.
It's just plain laziness and a lack of confidence in the language."

Thank you. *This* has been agonizingly obvious even to someone as utterly new to Irish as I.

It would be cooler if they went back to the old "tree names" (though there is disagreement on what is actually in it and some don't seem to be trees at all)

How about Tinne-Giúis Ceathair? Holly Pine 4!

Tinngiú 4?

Kind of a contradictory combination of trees. The tricky festive holly with the upright pine.

quote:

But at the same time, I am also deeply disturbed at the idea of taking words from other languages because they don't exist in Irish and then giving them Irish spellings. It almost feels like we are saying Irish isn't good enough to have its own word for something, however, the other language's word isn't good enough for Irish...what kind of BS is that.

I think we can categorise these words.

Category 1: Everyday words, not words used to describe some technological advancement which happened in the last five minutes -- a good example is "babysitting". Do you really think Irish is so pathetic that it can't come up with a term to describe this practise? What's wrong with Beidh mé ag tabhairt aire don pháiste..

Category 2: Slightly alien or new words. An example would be "rhinoceros". People could have been forgiven for dragging this straight into the Irish language, but they demonstrated great ingenuity by analysing the Greek from which "rhinoceros" came, and ended up with the Irish word srónbheannach. I wish they'd made such effort elsewhere though, I'm sure "helicopter" could have been broken down.

Category 3: These are words which probably should have been in Category 2, but which only got a slightly altered pronunciation and/or altered spelling. Examples: "héileacaptar", "fón".

Category 4: Off-the-wall new-fangled words, mostly trademarked brandnames like "Segway" or "Ferrari". I think it's OK to use these words "as is".

Of course, the most annoying ones are Category 1, when people use an English word in the place of an Irish. one.
Category 2 is quite refreshing.
Category 3 is a little annoying, but not near as bad as Category 1.
Category 4 is grand as far as I'm concerned.

One more thing, when I'm speaking Irish, I don't translate proper names. For instance, the Irish for the following:

John and I went down to Four Star Pizza.
Chuaigh mise agus John síos go Four Star Pizza.

However, if the proper name began to be used quite regularly, it might change to something like:

Chuaigh mise agus John síos go Pizza na Ceithre Réalt.

(But that would probably be the result of drunken Saturday night politics than anything else!)

And even then, one could debate the use of "pizza". I don't translate people's names -- if someone wanted their name in Irish, then they'd use it in Irish. I'm not going to call Stephen "Stiofán".

I agree with you a Fhear na mbrog and I really think it is good that you brought this up because it is indeed irritating. I know that the babysitting incident is an example pet piev of yours and I definitely understand why. I thought your catigorization above was really well-done and I agree with your analysis of it.

I understand what Antaine is saying, especially since English is a definite culprit for borrowing words. I also understand what he means about making Irish more "cool" or desirable to English speakers, but at what price can this be done. If Irish gets too watered down then all we shall have in its place is a sort of jargon speech full of English and Irish conglomerants.

A Antaine, I think I'll open a shop called Pajamas Galore :)

Irishing up English words by changing spellings can be allright in my view but only in certain situations and it shouldn't be done too often to be sure.

And I do think that we alter our speech depending on who we are around, I know my best friend does it when she is around me though this could be because she is very impressionable.

I noticed people saying TGceathair when I was in Ireland and I wondered why they were doing that, it seemed perculiar and I guess I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Does it annoy you guys when someone says "fairplay duit"? because that certainly isn't correct Irish.

Beir bua agus beannacht

"making Irish more "cool" or desirable to English speakers"

Does anyone really think that some daft teenager who hears terms like 'babysitáil', 'leaids', 'fairplay duit' or any of that shite in Irish is 1) going to decide that it makes Irish 'cool' and 2) is going to be inspired to take the time and effort to learn the language because of it. I don't think so.
If they want Irish to thrive they must try to attract the kind of people who actually would get passionate about the language and make the effort to learn it. And I'm pretty certain one sure way NOT to attract them is to make Irish seen like a barren, unsofisticated pidgin English, incapable of use as a language of the arts, sciences, technology etc without falling back on 'superior' English.

I can think of one particular word I looked up in a particular dictionary before, and was unhappy with the translation I got.

masturbation = féintruailliú

I could expect as much from say, Pope Benedict, but what sane person translates "masturbation" as "self-pollution"?

I don't know if this abomination of a word has caught on, and I hope it hasn't, but there's a much more suitable word available: glacaireacht

Tá léamh ró shimplí agat ar an scéal, a FnaB.

The reservoir metaphor is good, but not good enough.

The reservoir has to be filled. No fluent speaker of the language goes around with a dictionary in their back pocket. So if they lack a word, they'll take one from another language and make it fit. Given the situation in Ireland, that language will be english, just as in former centuries it was Latin (aifreann, cruiscín, ...), Greek (eaglais), Norse (margadh, pingin, ...), Norman French (coinín), Complaints about -áil have been going on for a good three centuries - but that's how it works.

For example, when I speak to a friend of mine who also lives in Germany and speaks German, we'll likely borrow from German if we need to clarify a point.

Neologisms have to spread - if people are not using them, they'll never escape from the dictionary.

This is where the media and books come in; I'd agree they need to make an effort to use the terms which exist in Irish.

But to fault Gaeltacht people for speaking their living language is incorrect. Often, loanwords change meaning:
"Angst" in English means something more specific than fear; "Bhí mé an-happy" is different to "Bhí áthas orm".

Finally, people who speaks fluent Irish naturally are not doing so to make it attractive to learners. It's not a product.

"Bhí mé an-happy"!!!
I think I'm going to be sick!

"Finally, people who speaks fluent Irish naturally are not doing so to make it attractive to learners. It's not a product."
Well, a Aonghuis, I'm one of those learners and I can assure you that if my only experience of the Irish language was Hector Ó hEochagáin (Ó Fuckagáin more like), Ros na Rún etc I wouldn't waste my time with it. It's hearing fluent speakers pronouncing the language correctly and expressing themselves freely that inspires me. I'd doubt I'm alone in this.

While we're on the general subject here are just some of the abominations I've come across in recent times. These don't even have the excuse of being part of colloquial spokenn Irish, they're all from dictionaries.

'Ioncam' - Income
'Jacaí' - Jockey (what's wrong with Eachaidhe?)
'Zú' - Zoo
'Híleantóir' - Highlander
'Jíp' - Jeep
'Rubar' - Rubber (again, what's wrong with ciútiúc)
'Reifirméisean' - Reformation
and that old favourite 'Héalacaptar' - Helicopter

I've been very disappointed by some of the nonsense I've found in de Bháldraithe's dictionary. For example recently while looking through it I came to the word 'spring' (the metal object, entry 5) and only found 'Sprionga'. I'm a bloody learner and even I know two other Irish words for a spring - 'Lingeán' & 'Tuailm'. Very unimpressive for the most popular large English-Irish dictionary in use today.
If I knew no better and looked up this word I might understandably assume that there simply was no native word for a spring or that a suitable Irish language name for it couldn't be devised. No wonder people out there have the mistaken opinion that Irish vocabulary is very poor in comparison to English and Irish isn't equipped to cope with technological, cultural and scientific advances.

James,
the point I am trying to (and apparently failing to) make is that fluent speakers of Irish don't owe you. Most of us, while happy to see you learning Irish, do not have a mission to make you do so. That is especially true of people in the Gaeltacht.

Telling someone from, say, Conamara that their Irish makes you sick is not going to get you anywhere.

I am sorry, but I totally disagree with the idea of languages as separate reservoirs in someone's mind, for this idea is simply false, as any learner of a second language knows. My Irish is still very poor, but I have learned English, Spanish and a bit of French as second languages; Veronese is the local language of the area of Italy I come from, and Italian the official one. When speaking Spanish with my flatmate, Italian and English pop out, together with Veronese; sometimes, after studying Irish, Irish words also come to my mind. The idea that mind is made of separate boxes is untenable, and luckily so, otherwise human being wouldn't be able to connect separate event and think logically.
Everyone here, every single person in Verona mixes Italian and Veronese, all the time. Code-switching is well docuumented, and has (of course) consequences on the lexicon and, in the long term, on the syntax of both Veronese and Italian. Yet Veronese is a very healthy langauge, even if people say 'forbese' (from the italian 'forbice, scissor) instead of 'sisora' (the native word which, ironically, originated from the same French root that generated scissors). The bastardisation of a language is a sign of its being alive, for the languages that haven't been changing for centuries are the dead ones, like Latin, Classical Greek or Old English.
I do undestand Aongus's point: hearing young kids using English words in Italian sounds awful to my ears, but I use the word 'email' in Italian on an everyday basis, as much as the words "weekend' and 'manager'. Languages, like people, change during their life; if the real problem of Irish was the use of loan words we should not be worried for its destiny.
A healthy form of bilingualism (which is actually the most widespread situation in the world) should be the goal of the promoter of the Irish language, for purism is an abstract category: in the real world language interact, influence each other and change.
Sorry for the blathering, just my two cents :-)
Davide

quote:

I am sorry, but I totally disagree with the idea of languages as separate reservoirs in someone's mind, for this idea is simply false, as any learner of a second language knows. My Irish is still very poor, but I have learned English, Spanish and a bit of French as second languages; Veronese is the local language of the area of Italy I come from, and Italian the official one. When speaking Spanish with my flatmate, Italian and English pop out, together with Veronese; sometimes, after studying Irish, Irish words also come to my mind. The idea that mind is made of separate boxes is untenable, and luckily so, otherwise human being wouldn't be able to connect separate event and think logically

I'm not talking about your thoughts, I'm talking about the words that come out of your mouth. If you were to speak English to me and throw in words from Veronese, then I'd look at you as though you have ten heads.

The idea of "reservoirs" is that you're restricted to the reservoir of the language you're speaking to someone at one particular time. If two people know both Korean and Latvia, then they can intertwine the two languages when they converse if they like. If you're speaking English though, speak English. If you're speaking Irish, speak Irish.

A Séamais Ó Murchú,

While sharing your indignation, I would like to object to your point.

Ros na Rún is probably THE BEST THING that happened to Irish language in the last 50 years. With all its shortcomings it is a perfect tool to demonstrate to people NOT LIVING in gaeltacht that Irish is a NORMAL language in which even such mundane stuff as soap operas can be produced. Not some kind of cultural-freak museum piece, but alive and vibrant means of communication. So on this you are totally wrong. While I am glad that Irish is a piece of academic pursuit for you, it is not academicians who make or break language survival. If I may continue, we need metaphorically "Ros na Rún: Empire strikes back", "Ros na Rún vs. Alien", "Ros na Rún diaries", "Sex and Ros na Rún" and a lot of other Ros na Rún's. Why? Because they make teenagers much better service then any enhanced teaching at the school, cause they create GLAMOROUS jobs in media and entertainment and they make Irish an attractice CAREER.

if Irish become a trendy language of the media, then you have explosion of demand of irish teachers at schools, private lessons, gradual conversion of ordinary schools into gaeilscoileanna. This is THE WAY to go. And by the way I would decree that certain subjects in ALL high schools have to be in Irish (like drama, arts, music and so on).

Regarding purisms.

yes you may extoll virtues of "guthán", but there is NOTHING wrong with the word "fón". It is Irish-adapted LATIN word, and there is no threat of Latin to Irish. "ioncam" is a much worse case.

One lesson from Lithuanian revival - words were not artificially constructed (although that happened too), but dialects were scoured very thoroughly. You would be surprised what kind of words you can find in one or another dialect, which can be source for literary language.

Several years ago it was uncovered that some Lowland dialect speakers in Lithuania have their own native word for "caries", so this loan-word was dumped and native word was adopted. And the main vehicle for word propagation were TV ads, as you know that toothpaste is one of the most frequently advertised items. So adoption of the word took a year or something. Advertisement is one of the strongest tools in language propagation. Unfortunately even on TG4 all ads are in English, some laws mandating irish speaking ads have to introduced.

"If you were to speak English to me and throw in words from Veronese, then I'd look at you as though you have ten heads. "

My Italian grandmother did, and she was a native english speaker born and raised in the US. Her parents spoke italian (their native language) and english around the house, but after she got married her household was english speaking, as were the households of others like myself to whom she was speaking.

The words, while technically unknown to the listener, made sense in context and her listeners didn't have any trouble understanding.

quote:

The words, while technically unknown to the listener, made sense in context and her listeners didn't have any trouble understanding.

You sure about that? What if I was to say:

Yes, I saw him but he didn't mokuchakva to me, he just turned around aasakanrpa and walked neoto.

"If you were to speak English to me and throw in words from Veronese, then I'd look at you as though you have ten heads. "
The grandma of a colleague of mine is a veneto emigrant living in Canada. When she speaks Veneto now she intersperses it with tenths of English words. So what? This is the way the human mind of works.

'Irish' is not an ideal; better, there is an ideal Irish, but like any ideal it is not real. Real Irish is a living language, spoken by native speakers and by non-native. Both contribute to the shaping of the language, to different degree of course. The pedigree of words has nothing to do with their authenticity. Isn't 'slogan' an English word? And what about 'difference', does any English speaker feels it less English because of its middle-French origin? The italian verb 'guardare', to look, is an offspring of the Langbard (some variaety of medieval German) 'ward', to ward; isn't it Italian?
Loan words are a sign that the language is spoken by not-native; given the situation of Irish, it looks like a good sign to me.
Cheers,
Davide

"Yes, I saw him but he didn't mokuchakva to me, he just turned around aasakanrpa and walked neoto."

How many Irish speakers with no English are there around?
Sorry, but this example proves nothing at all, for Irish exists in a situation of bilingualism; whether we like it or not, Irish exists with English. So, the meaning of babysiteáil is clear.
Cheers, Davide

I'm not saying it's faultless, but I never had trouble understaning her, nor did my mother, father or brother and none of us speak any Italian. Nobody else in the family seemed to ever have trouble, and nobody in the family speaks italian nowadays (not since before my grandparents' generation).

In your example, however, you've done that with three words in a single sentence instead of just one, and have denied me the context of the rest of the conversation.

Even then, I can still make some kind of sense of it, the jist being (again, being denied the whole rest of the context) that you saw a mutual acquaintance of both yours and the listener's, but he failed to acknowledge you, walking away as if he didn't see you.

other contexts might change the meaning. For instance, if "saw" means "met with" as opposed to simply "seeing", after you said your piece to him he may have failed to give the socially appropriate respose (perhaps an apology...again, no context) and instead turned and left without ever giving you the response you sought or expected from him.

context is everything.

I wonder how many learners of English complain about Ali G, East Enders, etc...

you know, i wonder what is the more usual, for languages to coin words for new terms (technology, concepts, etc) or to appropriate (either wholesale or modified) from others.

English is still borrowing from languages that are dead (video, phonograph, telegram, telephone) as well as ones still spoken (pajamas, skirt, desire - the list goes on and on ad nauseum) and is none the worse for wear.

Any linguists care to jump in? Do languages usually come up with wholly original words for new concepts, or do they take foreign words with or without modification? If I were a betting man, I'd likely wager that assimilation of foreign words is the more common, regardless of the language.

When things were introduced from england or the US to dependant areas, the natives adopted the english words, when things were imported back to britain from colonies, the native word made its way into english.

The Irish introduced the saxons to uisce beatha, and centuries later we have the word whiskey to show for it, museums were introduced to Ireland under british control and so músaem remains the more popular word in Irish, despite availability of a much more "Irish" alternative word, "iarsmalann"

My guess is that languages borrow when the introduction of the term comes via foreign trade, and coin new words when the introduction is home-grown.

To my knowledge (and I might call myself half, well, a quarter of a linguist), it depends on the structure of the language and on the community speaking the language. Icelandic for example is totally immune from the influence of foreign languages. A computer in Icelandic is called something like an 'oracle', for foreign words do not work in Icelandic. Same for people name, Viking name are the only names in Iceland; surname are all patronimic, --son or --dottir. Yet, surprisingly, Iceland is a very modern country, its ideology is not conservative at all... The mechanics of 'foreign influence' on a language are pretty tricky...
Davide

I'd agree with your guess, Antaine, although in this day of instant communications worldwide, I think the growth of new words isn't just attributable to foreign trade (if by that you meant "economic dealings") any more.

It's an interesting thing. Years ago I used to work at a huge company with thousands of people on campus from every walk of life, and I would attend a weekly lunch for francophones. One day a French woman from Paris attended and we got to discussing how new terms are coined and swiftly opposed by the Académie Française, which would offer a "truly French" version for the same word or phrase. Somebody asked her how to say "voice mail" in French and she replied "le voice mail," but the official version was something like ... "la boîte vocale." And she had to think about it and immediately laughed when she remembered because it sounded so strange to her.

For my part, I admire the French's stubborn refusal to capitulate to the steady incursion of, primarily, English into their language. My thinking is that in the end they can pronounce officially correct words and phrases, and those will make their way into dictionaries and be used on the news, but the language of the people, which grows organically, is not really controllable and never will be.

So, at best they're stanching the breach, but at least they're doing that.

I meant "intellectual exchange" by "trade" which usually follows on the heels of commerce, but encompasses new products, philosophies, scientific achievement and worldviews.

I don't know that the French are even "stanching the breach", as I doubt things coined by the Académie are used at all by the common man outside of the "official" circumstances you named...

"Do languages usually come up with wholly original words for new concepts, or do they take foreign words with or without modification?"
You've said it there- NEW CONCEPTS. Income, babysitting, jockey etc aren't new concepts so there's simply no need for these loan words.
When we need a word for something which we don't have in the spoken language I think there are three steps that should be gone through.

1) We have an extensive literature going back over 1500 years, several dialects living and historical(just as Róman mentioned above the Lithuanians finding a word in a particular dialect), Manx and Scottish Gaelic (after them the other Celtic languages) - an enormous resource which I'm sure could be enormously fruitful if used.

2) Obviously in words for completely new concepts existing words aren't to be found but Irish is a hugely flexible language; there are lots of prefixes and suffixes and it's also an ordinary part of the spoken language to use compound words, according to Dinneen many are composed ad lib during normal conversation (similar to Latin and Greek and it's these features of those languages that make them so suitable for coining new terms in science etc). It has already been done with 'ríomhaire' for example. The prefix 'tele-' is completely superflous as we already have a prefix meaning precisely the same thing - 'cian-'. I've seen 'cianamharc' in some older dictionaries for television. What was wrong with that?

3) There are obviously many concepts for which it would be absurd to try to create a word out of the existing language, completely exotic or new things eg. 'banana', 'kangaroo', 'psyche', 'bazooka' etc. These are the cases when loan-words should be taken into the language and greatly enrich the language. Although I think we should go to the source and not simply adopt the English word or English pronunciation of a foreign word. Also there are some foreign words that, while we may have an equivalent, have a specific meaning, eg. we could simply use 'puball' or 'puball Indiach' for tee-pee but tee-pee has a particular meaning apart from simply puball/tent. There's a big difference between this and monstrosities like 'babysitáil'.

No-one is denying that healthy languages evolve over time and new concepts arise for which new words need to be borrowed from other languages but what's going on now is the pollution of Irish from the tounge that is displacing it.

"James,
the point I am trying to (and apparently failing to) make is that fluent speakers of Irish don't owe you. Most of us, while happy to see you learning Irish, do not have a mission to make you do so. That is especially true of people in the Gaeltacht."

I should have responded to this first.

I understand what you're saying, I know it's not up to Irish speakers to make the language as attractive as possible to learners like me. But the fact is how the language is spoken will be a major reason for people to decide to take it up or not and the more it deteriorates fewer people will take it up. A language that seems to have to fall back on another, larger one to supply it's more technical or modern terms doesn't get respect and respect for a language I believe is a major factor in influencing people to get involved with it.

Beidh mé ag babysiteáil anocht. = Ce soir, je babysit. = Heute abend werde ich babysitten.
"to babysit" is an English (American?) concept. What Irish word would you suggest?

What's your problem, man?
Don't you know, that "problem" isn't English, but Greek?
Don't you know that "reservoir" isn't English, but French?

Lars

(Message edited by lars on November 27, 2006)

you mention income, for which there are several words in english, one of which, salary is a loan word that came in alongside more "authentic" words. there are slightly different shades of meaning to "pay" "income" "wage" and "salary" even though they can be used interchangeably for practical purposes. a loan word can make it in that way, and then become more popular than the others.

there have been "babysitters" since there were cave-women tending the children of the community so their mothers could do other tasks. The modern concept of "babysitting" however is a 20th century thing and thus qualifies as a "new concept." It was new enough for english to invent a new word for it, why should it not qualify as "new" then?

jockey - modern horseracing came to Ireland under british control, so in that sense it was a new concept. same with babysitting.

and yes, we do have ríomhaire, and I am surprised we do. I'm happy that it's there, but I'd be surprised if when the dust settles, "ríomhpost" manages to do the same for "email" (although it might)... and I think "guthán soghluaiste" has already lost it's battle - it's longer, less recognizable, and doesn't roll of the tongue as easily as ceallfón or seallfón or other constructions I've seen other places.

At the end of the day, this is an argument about aestethics, which can neither be good or bad. Does the word convey the idea it's meant to? If so, then it does what a word is supposed to. It might not do it as artfully or poetically or melodiously (to *our* ears) as we might like, but if it means that conversation gets to be had in Irish rather than english then God bless 'em...

(Message edited by antaine on November 27, 2006)

quote:

I think "guthán soghluaiste" has already lost it's battle - it's longer, less recognizable, and doesn't roll of the tongue as easily as ceallfón or seallfón or other constructions I've seen other places.

A Donegal man once told me that they say "guthán póca" where he's from.

quote:

Beidh mé ag babysiteáil anocht. = Ce soir, je babysit. = Heute abend werde ich babysitten.

Then it looks like all three languages are pathetic. You could easily say:

Beidh mé ag tabhairt aire dos na páistí anocht

or:

Beidh mé ag faire ar na páistí anocht

Or, if you wanted to go for a "half-way" translation:

Beidh mé ag babshuí na bpáistí anocht.

Even the last one is better than babysiteáil.

Foghlaim cúpla teanga eile, a FnaB, agus ansin beidh sé de cheart agat a rá cad tá "pathetic".

Tá brí níos cúinge ag "babysit" ná aire, i. duine ag feighlíocht linbh ar feadh tréimhse gairid, do pá don chuid is mó.

"Then it looks like all three languages are pathetic."

I think this kinda confirms that we're debating an impractical/unrealistic "standard" here...

a) Doing X is pathetic
b) Almost every language on earth does X

the end result of that is the working definition of "pathetic" and/or the threshold past which something becomes properly "pathetic" needs to be revised, not that all those languages need to be remade or condemned.

recognize a natural and acceptable linguistic process at work and move on

Not to change the direction of the thread completely but I was curious if anyone here knew how a word ends up in the Irish dictionary?

I know this sounds like a dumb question, "I mean, I know that if people use it then it goes in there eventually."

What I am curious about is how do they determine which is the first entry for a word? It is not alphabetical...I have Collin's Gem and the Oxford Dictionary in front of me right now and both list different orders for the same entries?

Who is in charge of saying "this means that?"

The reason I ask is that I am guilty of often believing that the first entry is usually the most:

1) Commonly used word.
2) Commonly accepted word.
3) Dialect nuetral word.

However, I am often corrected by my friends who are native speakers and should have used this word or that word. And to me anyway, it always seems like it is the word I would have chosen last!!!

I have noticed that Collin's Gem tends to give the traditional Irish words first, followed by what we might call "intruders" into the language. Where the Oxford is seems to be the 180 of it...

"Not to change the direction of the thread completely"

Oh, please do...sábháil sinn...

I'm not sure about the answer, though

Bhuel, anseo sé tá, an fiútsiúr na Gaeilge. An pasabal liv mé a undarstand? Mé ví sa tabhn inniu agus mé phárcáil mo veain os comhair an suinime chun fóncáll a méacáil ar mo seallfón. Ansin mé wácáil thar an brids agus isteach sa siopaing-saintear. Mé bhátáil telefís niú dom féin. Sé ví an-heard é a carryáil beac go dtí mo veain agus ansin ví angar agus sopradhs orm bíceás mé foghndáil ticéad fé mo wind-scruín-wadhpar.

Okay, just a bit of a jokeáil, but if current trends continue.....

(Message edited by James_Murphy on November 27, 2006)

A Ghavin a chara,

That is a good question. When I try and write something in Irish and I look up the word in the dictionary I usually pick the first entry for it, though sometimes if I don't think it is what I want then I choose the easiest one to remember or the one that "sounds" prettiest or most desirable to me, not a very objective or affective method to be sure but it is just what I always do. I have no way to know which entry is the best for my desired outcome of understanding and usually it can be figured out by the smart people around here even though I didn't use the right word.



Beir bua agus beannacht

Nach iontach go deo an cur is cúiteamh a bhíonn ar siúl ar an gclár seo ar bhonn leanúnach (úúps, maith dhom an Béarlachas) ad nauseum (maith dhom an Laidineachas). Foghlaimeoirí teanga i mbun gortghlanadh ar an dteanga chéanna - ag iarraidh gnáthfhocail atá in úsáid leis na glúnta a ruaigeadh mar go gceapann daoine gur tríd an mBéarla a thángadar chugainn.

Níl freagra na cruacheiste agam ar conas is féidir teanga ár sínsear a shábháil ach táim cinnte dearfa (siúráilte fiú) de rud amháin - nach aon chúnamh in aon chor é bheith ag clamhsáin faoi chainteoirí na teanga - trí mheán an Béarla.

Tá Myles ina bheatha fós anseo ar an idirlíon.

quote:

nach aon chúnamh in aon chor é bheith ag clamhsáin faoi chainteoirí na teanga - trí mheán an Béarla.

Áiméan! Go raibh maith agat, a Antóin. Fáinne óir ort, agus go bhfaga (do rogha) Dia do shláinte agat!

I usually look up all the words mentioned in the Irish-English half, to get a sense for the different shades of meaning - at least where example sentences fail. That's the only way to understand which "run" is with your feet, which is for an office, which being applied to an engine etc.

quote:

While we're on the general subject here are just some of the abominations I've come across in recent times. These don't even have the excuse of being part of colloquial spoken Irish, they're all from dictionaries.

'Ioncam' - Income

This is probably the biggest joke of a word we (supposedly) have in the Irish language.

'Jacaí' - Jockey (what's wrong with Eachaidhe?)

Or even some variant of "marcaíocht", e.g. "marcaí".

'Zú' - Zoo

To be honest, I've no problem with this one. It's not as if the Celts had zoos.

'Híleantóir' - Highlander

I don't even know what a highlander is, and I don't care much to look it up.

'Jíp' - Jeep

Well I hate to see the letter "j" in the Irish language, but still I don't think you can complain too much about this one.

'Rubar' - Rubber (again, what's wrong with ciútiúc) I'm not familiar with either word, so I can't pass judgement.

'Reifirméisean' - Reformation This is an abomination. To "form" in Irish is "cruthaigh". I presume to "reform" would be "athchruthaigh". From there, I'd say that "The Reformation" should be something like "An tAth-Chruthúchán".

and that old favourite 'Héalacaptar' - HelicopterYes, I'd prefer an Irish word which was made up from smaller Irish words.

RE Guthán póca - I heard this word a lot in Ros na Rún, so probably this is the standard now. There is nothing pre-destined about English words. Witness German "Handy", Russian "sotovik", Lithuanian "mobiliakas" (still jargon).

quote:

Beidh mé ag tabhairt aire dos na páistí anocht

I watch you progressing slowly but surely into Munster dialect, a Fhir na mBróg. Maith thú!

quote:

'Rubar' - Rubber (again, what's wrong with ciútiúc) I'm not familiar with either word, so I can't pass judgement.

So what material of is made an eraser that is used for deleting pencil marks? You are not familiar with the word?!

quote:

The reservoir metaphor is good, but not good enough.

The reservoir has to be filled.

But then there's the attitude problem, i.e.

(1) Should we dip into other reservoirs?
(2) Should we fill our own reservoir?

quote:

the point I am trying to (and apparently failing to) make is that fluent speakers of Irish don't owe you. Most of us, while happy to see you learning Irish, do not have a mission to make you do so. That is especially true of people in the Gaeltacht.

Why do they speak Irish in the Gaeltacht? I can't think of any other reason than pride and love for the language, i.e. to keep their native language alive and kicking and vibrant. If this is their motive, then why would they be so keen on polluting it with English bastardisations?

quote:

I watch you progressing slowly but surely into Munster dialect, a Fhir na mBróg. Maith thú!

I noticed this very thing myself just yesterday! I don't know what it is, but it seems that I'm taking a fancy to Munster Irish. I quite like all the little things like "Dhúnas an doras", "dos na páistí".

What's the best book out there for Munster Irish? (A book targeted at someone who is already proficient in Irish)

quote:

Why do they speak Irish in the Gaeltacht?

Simply put, because they always have. Sure, some have a pride and love for it. But not all. And hectoring them about "spake proper Oirish now please" will not increase either pride or love.

"'Zú' - Zoo

To be honest, I've no problem with this one. It's not as if the Celts had zoos. "
Indeed they didn't but surely we could do better than simply borrowing an English colloquialism (ZOOlogical Garden).

"'Híleantóir' - Highlander

I don't even know what a highlander is, and I don't care much to look it up."
As in Scottish Highlander. Painful isn't it?

"'Jíp' - Jeep

Well I hate to see the letter "j" in the Irish language, but still I don't think you can complain too much about this one."
It is indeed a completely new concept and while I'm sure some word could be devised for it, somthing BASED on jeep could be adopted but the sound 'j' simply doesn't exist in Irish. When people use this word pronunced 'dzhi:p' they may as well spell it 'jeep' becausing they are simply using an English word. When using the French 'crossant' we don't spell it 'crossaw' or anything like that in English.

"'Rubar' - Rubber (again, what's wrong with cúitiúc) I'm not familiar with either word, so I can't pass judgement."
The English name for this substance comes from it's first function, as an eraser, obviously from the verb 'rub'.
Why we then should bring this entirely English term into our language when a perfectly fine LOAN-WORD exists in our language for it - 'ciútiúc'. The substance is called something similar in several other languages (French- 'caoutchouc', Greek- 'kaoutsaoúk').


P.S. I had a read again of that daft little 'story' in 'Gaeilge an Fhiútúra' I wrote last night. Sorry about that everyone, I was bloody tired :).

(Message edited by James Murphy on November 28, 2006)

"nach aon chúnamh in aon chor é bheith ag clamhsáin faoi chainteoirí na teanga - trí mheán an Béarla."

Gabh mo leithscéal, a Antóin. Ní raibh a fhios agam ná raibh sé de ceart ag daoine ná fuil Gaedhilg líomhtha acu an teanga agus a forbairt a phléidhe annso. Ach 'DÁLTAÍ na Gaeilge' atá ar an suidheamh so agus mar sin ba dhóigh liom ná beadh sé ró-dhána dhom mo thuairim ionnraic a chur síos sa teangain is fearr (faraor) is féidir liom mo smaointe a chur i n-iúl.

Apologies if the above isn't perfect (and I'm certain it isn't).

Bhí mé ag watcheáil an telly le cainteoir aosta as Conamara, agus nuair a bhí an nuaíocht TG4 ar bun agus ceist pholaitíocht eicínt a phlé ag muintir na "Gaeilge Nua", mar a deir sí, dúirt sí liom gur leis an fhírinne a rá níor thig sí tada ón gcaint seo. Nach mór an truaighe a bheadh againn do chainteoirí dúchasacha agus iad gan tiscint na Gaeilge atá sibh, a Fhear na mBróg agus James, a mholadh! Agus ina dhiaidh sin deireann na seandaoine nach bhfuil aon mhaith ina gcuid Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go gcaithfear foclóir póca na Gaeilge Nua (le foghraíocht!) a thabhairt dóibhsan!

A Shéamuis,

1) Comhghairdeas as do phointe a dhéanamh i nGaeilge sách maith. Cleachtadh a níos máistreacht. Ná bí leithscéalach. Níl aoinne ag súil le prós Cadhnach uait.

2) Tá difear idir plé agus clamhsán, agus go hairithe a bheith ag caitheamh anuas ar lucht labhartha na Gaeilge, i mBéarla. Níos measa fós nuair nach bhfuil an dream faoina bhfuil tú ag clamhsán anseo chun a dtaobh siúd a chuir.

---

Focal scoir:
Tabhair a dhóthain den ardléann do Ghaeilgeoir agus ní Gaeilgeoir a thuilleadh é ach SCOLÁIRE. Agus, a chairde mo chleibh, is iontach na héanacha iad na scoláirí nuair a bhainnean siad amach beanna arda an léinn mhóir. Tugann siad gráin don uile fhocal den teanga Ghaeilge ach na focla a bhfuil seacht sreama na seanaoise orthu. Níl canúint is fearr leo ná an chanúint atá marbh le céad blian.
Bíonn a chanúint fhéin ag gach duine acu agus murar féidir leat í sin a labhairt leo go clocharach pislíneach mar is dual labhróidh siad Béarla leat. Bíonn Béarla an-bhreá acu go hiondúil. Le fírinne agus leis an gceart bíonn sé acu chomh maith nó níos fearr ná an Ghaeilge féin. Béarla gan chanúint a chleachtann siad, rud a chuireann ar a gcumas labhairt le formhór chuile Bhéarlóir. Buntáiste mór é seo gan dabht.

Breandán Ó hEithir, Feabhra 1958

quote:

Or, if you wanted to go for a "half-way" translation:

Beidh mé ag babshuí na bpáistí anocht.

Even the last one is better than babysiteáil

No, no, such calques are even worse.

I don't know about Irish. But in German you cannot use phrases like "Kinder hüten", "auf Kinder aufpassen" or so instead of "babysitten", because they don't comprise the whole concept and have even a slightly diffferent meaning (Only adults can "Kinder hüten").
And under no circumstances you could use something like "babysitzen"
"Sitzen" doesn't mean anything but to have placed your bottom on a horizontal plane and it can't be used transitive. To use "babysitzen" sounds very very odd and it isn't even intelligible. ("To sit on babies? How cruel!")
Perhaps it is the same in Irish. It's in not in the least "pathetic".
Only native speakers can decide what one could "easily say".

Lars

quote:

What's the best book out there for Munster Irish? (A book targeted at someone who is already proficient in Irish)

For reading or for studying?

As some have pointed out above, languages evolve, this is a healthy sign. I see the Irish language as a means of communication, if two people can make themselves understood using the language to communicate, thats good enough for me, irrespective of whether they use some english loan-words.

When the number of Irish speakers has grown to the point where the future of the language as a means of communication is assured, then by all means let the focus be on reducing the usage of loan-words when there are better alternatives. Give me a living, evolving Irish spoken by an increasing number of young people in the country over a flawless but frozen language spoken by a small elitist group every time.


Perhaps technology can allow for a compromise though. If everyone used the new website at http://www.focal.ie/Home.aspx as their resource for terms in Irish, then alternatives to english loan-words would be promoted in a positive way (rather than criticism of the use of loan-words). The site is already being used extensively by schools, universities, professional translators and the Irish language media.

If you don't like an Irish translation on Focal.ie, send an email to suggesting your alternative, and your reasoning why this alternative should be used. If you can't find the Irish for the word you are looking for on Focal.ie, fill out the form at http://www.focal.ie/Enquiry.aspx and the official Coiste Téarmaíochta will agree on the correct term and add it to the Focal.ie database. In this way the language can grow and respond to the need for new Irish words in a way that print dictionaries cannot.

Apologies if this seems like an advertisement for Focal.ie, but I have had a peripheral involvement with the project and believe that it will prove to be one of the best investments of public and EU money in the Irish language, providing people use it and help it to grow (and providing Foras na Gaeilge continues to invest in it and other new online resources for the language).

Cathal

Good on ya Cathal, Focal.ie is a fantastic resource!!!

Scríobh Lars

quote:

don't know about Irish. But in German you cannot use phrases like "Kinder hüten", "auf Kinder aufpassen" or so instead of "babysitten", because they don't comprise the whole concept and have even a slightly diffferent meaning (Only adults can "Kinder hüten").

Mar an gcéanna atá an scéal i nGaeilge.

Ní bheidh fáilte roimh aoinne suí ar mo leanaí!

"Tá difear idir plé agus clamhsán, agus go hairithe a bheith ag caitheamh anuas ar lucht labhartha na Gaeilge, i mBéarla. Níos measa fós nuair nach bhfuil an dream faoina bhfuil tú ag clamhsán anseo chun a dtaobh siúd a chuir."

If it seems that I'm here criticising and ridiculing the speech of Irish speakers that's not my intention. My complaint is directed towards the entire system in this country which has allowed Irish to remain a peripheral, misunderstood and disrespected (by a great deal of the people). I don't expect ordinary people to trawl through old dictionaries and invent new terms for every new innovation. Of course they use 'helicopter' when the means through which this concept is brought to them -the media, films, books, school etc - are entirely English. My problem is with English's complete domination of these central aspects of modern life which inevitably leads to problems as we've discussed above. And more importantly with those who've allowed this situation to develop - the politicians, morons in the Irish language movement more interested in pissing around with the spelling and arguing with each other about which dialect is best than getting down to the real business of restoring Irish as the dominant language in EVERY sphere of our lives. People can't work miracles and many have devoted their lives to this aim but so much more could have been done. People need to be thought ABOUT the language, Firstly, it's importance in history, it's richness, it's literature and why it has come to be in the position it's in, Secondly it's potential for the future, it's capability of easily taking on the modern world and any subject that comes it's way whether it's advanced mathematics, modern politics or psychology. This would, I believe inspire ordinary people to really invest the time and effort to attempt to restore our language with great confidence in their future with it.

Sorry the above isn't in Irish but I'd have had to sit here for two hours with a dictionary in one hand and my head in the other to try to express that in Irish. Hopefully though the day will come.


I think I'll go and soak my hands in a bucket of ice-water after that :)

Ceart go leor. Mo léithscéal, bhain me an chiall mícheart as an méid a bhí á rá agat.

Tuigim duit, cé gur dóigh liom go bhfuil an cheist rud beag níos casta ná mar a thuigeann tú. Agus ní dóig hliom gur fiú bheith ag lochtú "an córas" i gconaí.

quote:

morons in the Irish language movement more interested in pissing around with the spelling and arguing with each other about which dialect is best

As I am one of those "morons" I would like to refute. If someone ever thinks that choice of dialect and spelling is UNIMPORTANT then look at the sorry state of Cornish language, where is a real war between adepts of 3 (!) different Cornishes! And only because everybody was just pressing his own agenda, looking for fame of "restoring" the language. I feel real compassion for all those who devoted their lives (even raising children through the language) to see their "Cornish" discarded now because there is "better", "more authentic", "more truthful" reconstruction. if the task is taken to propagate the language through the country then the care should be taken to propagate the kind of language that no one would have second thoughts afterwards and no confusion would be created by later attempts of revision.

I am not advocating any dialect in particular, I am advocating to take ANY dialect and make it standard as current CO is a mish mash with a no right to replace dialects as it is FAKE and JOKE. Many things are simply idiotic in CO. As Jonas has suggested some time ago - the real compromise would be Mayo dialect, as then neither Tír Chonaill, nor Conamara, nor Mumha would have to yield, so everybody would be equally happy. And the language wouldn't need to be tweaked too much from CO but it would become ways and ways MORE LOGICAL and CONSISTENT.

Dúirt Róman:

quote:

For reading or for studying?

One of each! What would be good for studying grammar, constructs, etc., and what would be good for just reading? Do you know what, I actually have a very old Munster Irish book somewhere in my house, it's written in the old script too. It has "dhúnas" instead of "dhún mé", and one of the chapters is entitled "Díoltas na bhFear mBeag", i.e. with an urú on the adjective! I'll see if I can find it. I recall trying to read it a few years ago but my proficiency was lacking.

Actually you won't believe this, the book was on the shelf in front of me all along! It's called "Eisirt". It opens with the following:

Caibidil a 1 : CÚIS GHÁIRE AG EISIRT

Tamall mór roimh aimsir Chúchulainn agus Mhéibh agus Chonchubhair rí Uladh, bhí rí eile ar Ultaibh agus Feargas mac Léide ab ainm dó.
Dhein an Feargas san fleadh mhór in Eamhain Mhacha gus bhí maithe agus mór-uaisle Uladh cruinnithe aige ag caitheamh na fleidhe.
Le linn na fleidhe sin a bheith in Eamhain Mhacha bhí fleadh eile ag rí eile san áit ar a dtugtaí tuatha luchra agus luprachán. Daoine an-bheaga ab ea tuatha luchra agus luprachán. Ní raibh na fir ba mhó orthu puinn thar leath-troigh ar airde. Iubhdán mac Abhdáin ab ainm don rí a bhí orthu. Bhí Iubhdán leath-orlach go maith níos airde ná aon fhear dá shlua, agus bhí sé cumtha córach dá réir sin. Fear an-dhathúil, an-ríoga ab ea é. Bhíodar go léir an-dhathúil, an-dhea-chumtha, ach ní raibh aon bhreith ag éinne acu ar an rí. Gruaig chas dhubh is ea bhí ar an rí, agus gruaig bhreá fhionn a bhí ar an uile fhear eile dá raibh sa tír sin.

That's definitely Munster Irish, right?

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on November 28, 2006)

quote:

One of each!

For studying Munster Irish there are unfortunately very few resources. One is Teach Yourself Irish, but the old edition (pre 1994). And be sure that the author is Myles Dillon, not Ó Sé as Ó Sé's version has nothing to do with the previous edition.

The book in itself is not suitable for a beginner as it is more reference book with few exercises. You as someone who has solid basis would benefit most from it. There are 30 chapter in each of those some grammar point is explored. Explanations are very dense, so don't miss a single words. As I struggled with the book several times I was amazed to find something new every time in every chapter, even in the beginning!

This book will help you to change your ways from caighdeán into genuine Irish. Pay a lot of attention to sentences in that book. There is a lot of typically Munster expressions hidden in those!

As for reading - I am not a great expert as my Irish is still wanting, but unedited Séadna is a good start. It is one of the finest pieces of Munster literature. But check if it is not caighdeánesque bastardisation! Look out for Carbad's edition (1995)

Already in the fourth line of the first chapter you see it is pure Munster Irish -

Síle: Dein, a Pheig. Beimíd ana-shocair

Fifth line:

Peig: Nach maith nár fhanais socair aréir ... and so on.

Then good source are all old books from Society of leitriú shimplí (20s-30s I believe). They are trickier to read as they write straightforward "muar", "ár nóhain" (ar ndóthain) and the likes but you get used to it after some time. At least you will be sure your pronunciation is Munsters'.

And of course there are other indirect sources like LASID, but it is too tiresome to glan anything from there.

is mise 7rl

"An tOileánach" is pretty good reading; I'm in the middle of that right now. The current (2002) edition is a whole lot less standardized (if it is standardized at all!) than the old Helicon one.

Don't look to me for any Munster knowledge, though! What Irish I have is Connemara. "An tOileánach" was just recommended to me as a good book, so I thought I'd try it.

Abigail

A Fir - yes looks like Munster, but spelling might be improved :)

e.g. I would write "ana-dhathúil", "ana-bheag", "níos aoirde".

"Why do they speak Irish in the Gaeltacht? I can't think of any other reason than pride and love for the language,"

inertia. like with religious converts you find some of the greatest apathy (or self-loathing) among those born into it, and the greatest passion and vibrancy among those who chose to adopt it.



oh, and the word "jeep" doesn't mean anything, it's a merchandise name. conas a déarfa "kleenex," "xerox" nó "kodak" as Gaeilge?

Some believe that it came from the designation of the vehicle in the army GP (general purpose), so perhaps some phoneticization of aidhm ginearálta or cuspóir ginearálta...although, ginearálta is clearly a borrow as well, so you probably don't want that one either.

For the record, however, those who believe GP stood for general purpose are wrong, it came from Ford's designation for the vehicle, GPW.
G=government vehicle,
P=80" wheelbase
W=Willys design specifications

"As I am one of those "morons" I would like to refute."
No, Róman, you're not. I mean the people involved officially with the language here in Ireland like those who devised the Caighdeán Oifigeamhail(I enjoy writing that in non-C.O. spelling :) ).

"If someone ever thinks that choice of dialect and spelling is UNIMPORTANT then look at the sorry state of Cornish language,"
Yes spelling is important, that's why I object to their crude re-organisation of it - (1) it alienated many people who had been thought through the old spelling and script (the experience of both my parents) (2) Surely they had more important things to do

"I am advocating to take ANY dialect and make it standard as current CO is a mish mash with a no right to replace dialects as it is FAKE and JOKE."
I agree 100%.

"the real compromise would be Mayo dialect,"
Again, I agree completely (and I say that as someone whose main focus is on the Munster dialect).

quote:

'Ioncam' - Income

This is probably the biggest joke of a word we (supposedly) have in the Irish language.

Ní thuigim an jóc ollmhór seo. Níl ann ach gnáthfhocal - in úsáid go forleathan.

quote:

'Rubar' - Rubber (again, what's wrong with ciútiúc) I'm not familiar with either word, so I can't pass judgement.

Is é 'rubar' an focal atá in úsáid. "What's wrong with that?" Ta crut i bhfad níos nádúrtha air in nGaeilge ná an focal coimhthíoch "ciútiúc". Ní raibh a fhios agam go raibh a leithéid d'fhocal ann in aon chor go dtí gur chonac anseo é. Cé go bhfuil sé sa bhfoclóir, ní thuigfadh an gnáth-chainteoir é. Níl fiu is sampla amháin den fhocal i nGoogle.

Ní bhaintear úsáid as 'rubber ball' ná 'rubber tyre' chun focail a 'rub out' - mar sin b'fheidir gur chóir do lucht Bhéarla na banríona an seanfhocal 'Caoutchouc' a chur ina ionad.

Agus ná bí ag caint ar na suaracháin úd a ndeir 'rubber' is iad ag tagairt do c------í frithghinniúna mínádurtha gránna - úúúú! cuireann sé masmas orm.

quote:

'Reifirméisean' - Reformation This is an abomination. To "form" in Irish is "cruthaigh". I presume to "reform" would be "athchruthaigh". From there, I'd say that "The Reformation" should be something like "An tAth-Chruthúchán".

Ó! 'Abomination' an ea? Cuireann sé sin i gcuimhne dom an focal 'Anathema' a chaitheadh ar theoiricí nár thaitin leis an bPápa sa liosta "Siollabas Earráidí" a tháinig as Chéad Chomhairle na Vatacáine. Is ón Laidin, teanga na hEaglaise, a thagann 'Reifirméisean - Reformation'. Faraoir níl a leithéid d'fhocal ann agus "An tAth-Chruthúchán" go bhfios domsa ar aon nós. Tá téarmaí éagsúla ann mar 'athleasú, athchóiriú" ach le ciall ginearálta. Baineann 'Reifirméisean' le athcheartú reiligiúnda faoi leith. Focal atá in úsáid ag scoláirí, stairithe agus lucht eaglaise, ach más abomination leat an téarma, bhuel níl aon leigheas agam air.

quote:

and that old favourite 'Héalacaptar' - HelicopterYes, I'd prefer an Irish word which was made up from smaller Irish words.

Tá an focal 'ingearán' ann, ach ní dóigh liom go dtuigfeadh mórán an téarma.

quote:

masturbation = féintruailliú

I could expect as much from say, Pope Benedict, but what sane person translates "masturbation" as "self-pollution"?

Nach bhfuil a fhios agat gur peaca marfach atá ann. Is ar leaca Ifrinn a bheidh do bhóga ag bualadh damhsa an dóiteáin, a Fhear na mBróg.


Agus FRC i gcónaí.

quote:

there's a much more suitable word available: glacaireacht

Nach bhfuil lámhchartadh níos coitianta ná é sin, a Fhir? Dála an scéil, ar chuala tú an téarma "feis láimhe" riamh?

quote:

'rubber' is iad ag tagairt do c------í frithghinniúna mínádurtha gránna

Abair amach é: coiscíní. Ní raibh sé sin chomh deacair. Pé scéal é, nár chóir dúinn an gnáthfhocal atá in úsáid ag na Gaeilgeoirí a chaitheann coiscíní / rubair, nó cibé a úsáid?

"Is ón Laidin, teanga na hEaglaise, a thagann 'Reifirméisean - Reformation'"
Is soiléar ó fhuaimniughadh an fhocail gur baineadh go díreach ó bhéarla é.


Maithidh dhom é seo a leanas a bheith as an dTeangain Luardha.
This thread has been a bit acrimonious at times. As if there are two extremes - those who believe that the language should be 100% 'pure' with no loan words whatsoever, preserved for ever and those who believe that any influence from English, whether it's in vocabulary, pronunciation or syntax is absolutely fine and natural and criticism of it is nothing less than an attack on speakers today.
I'm sure there are very few people here on either of those extremes.

Just to make my position as clear as possible: I have nothing against loan words. The adoption of loan words is a normal, positive development in a living language and greatly enriches it.
But that is not the situation today, Irish is being completely overwhelmed by English. The native vocabulary is diminishing as English dominates more and more spheres of life. Most importantly today the media, entertainment and education. For any modern innovation people are forced to rely on English as exposure to the world at large is entirely through that language. While that situation continues Irish is not in a healthy position.

Obviously not everyone here is going to have the same opinions on these issues and I don't think there's any chance of anybody convincing everyone else that they are completely right. I certainly don't claim that I'm entirely right on this or I have all the answers (far from it) I'm just giving my honest opinion. And perhaps, speaking of health, the fact that this debate is going on about the language we all care about is a good sign in itself.

quote:

And perhaps, speaking of health, the fact that this debate is going on about the language we all care about is a good sign in itself.

There is plenty of debate about the language, in the language. This debate, and most debates in english, are, sadly, seldom informed by the debate in Irish, and therefore by accurate data.

Suggested reading list:
http://www.veritas.ie/veritas/asp/product.asp?pr_code=1853907774

http://www.coislife.ie/books/academic/irishinthe.htm

And, in Irish, any of the Aimsir Óg series of pamphlets produced by Coiscéim.

How easy it is to be misunderstood communicating this way.
I take it you've gotten the impression that I assumed this little bit of contention here is unique and important. Believe me, I'm well aware it isn't. That's the point, Irish remains an crucial issue for many people. The day this ceases is the day we can all give up.

Bhí na nascanna an-suimeamhail. Déanfad iarracht roinnt acu a fhagháil.

I was making a general point. I find all discussions in english on irish are narrow, and frankly boring, compared with the wider debate in irish. Speakers of irish are frequently speakers of other languages, or at least aware of a world beyond the Anglophone.

Personally, I find that a debate is a debate in any language...I don't know if I would go so far as to say that the debates going on entirely in Irish are any wider than those that go on here in English.

If anything, carrying on a debate entirely in Irish could tend to limit the potential for varied opinion, because those taking part tend to be fewer in number than those taking part in English.

But those who express an opinion on irish in english tend to have a narrow view.

Irish speakers spend more time dismantling straw men and correcting falsehoods about irish, when attempting to debate in English, than debating.

Fewer numbers of debaters does not mean fewer opinions are expressed. Irsih speakers cover the entire political spectrum, from Communists to the PRO of the immigration control platform, from pious catholics over free presbyterians to convinced atheists.

Another useful work in English:

http://www.obrien.ie/book299.cfm

“I find it disconcerting from time to time watching TG4 -- when people speak Irish, I would expect them to pick from the Irish reservoir... but it seems that all too often they delve into the English reservoir. And I'm not talking about new-fangled words like "protozoa" either, I'm talking everyday words and terms. Just today, I heard someone speaking Irish on TG4 say "babysitter" and "ring tone". The most disconcerting piece of Irish I've ever heard is:"

So should we accommodate the phonotactics, and only let words of certain length or structure in that do not attenutate irish? An example is the 'rubar' substitute 'ciúitiús', which is dodgy be mine eye



“It's hearing fluent speakers pronouncing the language correctly and expressing themselves freely that inspires me. I'd doubt I'm alone in this.”


That TG4 drama set in a factory –last time I looked at it, the uninitated would not think it was made in Ireland, they pronounciate so non –Oirish; so refreshing, it’s like a foreign langauge




"Well I hate to see the letter "j" in the Irish language, but still I don't think you can complain too much about this one. 'Jíp' - Jeep

What’s wrong with ‘díp’?"


“"Díoltas na bhFear mBeag", i.e. with an urú on the adjective!”

I want the úrú on the adjs again, when I’ve worked out more primary elements


“real compromise would be Mayo dialect, as then neither Tír Chonaill, nor Conamara, nor Mumha would have to yield,”

Ah, mein phantasee where the pronounciation and phonotactics of Mayo Irish are welded to individual phonology of Donegal, with West Munster verbal grammar and the idiom of Conemara and Ring…

"ciútiúc".

It would seem to me that this is an annoying word to pronounce and as it is C’V:C’V:C, I may not be right, but it might break, or at least be rare, in the phonotactics of at least 1 dialect. It is an odd arrangemet of palatal consonants and long back vowels with is a tad hard to say. Now ‘rubar’ is easier


“I could expect as much from say, Pope Benedict, but what sane person translates "masturbation" as "self-pollution"?”

Surely, he would not know of such things?

quote:

free presbyterians to convinced atheists.

Séard a léigh mé an chéad uair ná "convicted".

Dieu merci, je suis toujours athée. -Luis Buñuel.

Meas tú an bhfuil Dia abuñuelée?

quote:

What’s wrong with ‘díp’?

A lot as only minority of native speakers and YES, almost all learners, pronounce "díp" like English "jeep". I would rather suggest to follow centuries-old way of transcribing English "j" and not to invent rothar:

James - Séamas
John - Seán
=>

jeep - síp.

By the same logic -

vótáil should be "fótáil" in Irish, as well as "Vilnius", "Varsó" - "Filnius", "Farsó"

v, I think was often analysed by natives as a slender b, I think, as another point

The thing with j-->/s'/ is that there was no affricatives then, and there is now, so people will do as they do

Actually, I think me and Róman might be thinking on the same lines...

When I really sit down and think about it, it isn't so much that foreign words are entering the language and being used. If Irish had a word for it, it would probably be in use. However, "jeep" is a good example of my personal problem with the words that are entering the language, I believe that to a large degree we are changing the fundamentals of Irish to accomodate the words.

If we can allow the "j" sound in jeep to be represented by the letter "j" in this case, then was is to stop anyone from placing the slender "d" altogether?

Using an example from learning Irish, what is to stop this from happening:

Cheannaigh mé rothar go jíreach cosúil lena cheann seisean agus thosaigh muij amach. (AN ROTHAR, lesson 35, p.198)

Irish has for the most part a sound that can accomadate the "j" sound. It is called a slender "d." And as Róman did a wonderful job pointing out, it has been the Irish tradition for a very long time to use an "s" to accomadate the "j" in foreign words. So when words like "jíp" come into the language, I fear that it can only be the result of a lack of appreciation for Irish because they are neglecting the basic fundamentals of Irish.

quote:

I believe that to a large degree we are changing the fundamentals of Irish to accomodate the words.

We? We?? Scríobh é sin i nGaeilge agus beidh tú i dteideal we a rá. Is iad na daoine a labhraíonn an teanga atá á hathrú.

quote:

jeep - síp.

By the same logic -

vótáil should be "fótáil"

Is maith an loighic í seo, gan dabht. Ach is cuma anois. Tá nath ag na Meiriceánaigh don saghas seo díospóireachta: is Monday morning quarterback thú.

quote:

I would rather suggest to follow centuries-old way of transcribing English "j" and not to invent rothar:
James - Séamas
John - Seán

I thought it weren't the English names which changed to Séamas and Seán but Norman French names.
There's no English j-sound in French Gemmes and Jean.

Lars

Is fíor duit, Lars. Ach baineadh feidhm as an múnla sin i ndiaidh ré na Normannach. Mar shampla:

Jacobite - Seacabaíteach
Japanese - Seapánach

quote:

Irish has for the most part a sound that can accomadate the "j" sound. It is called a slender "d."

Where did you take this notion from??? Not in Munster, not in Conamara, not in Dún na nGall, NOWHERE bar for Teillin is slender d pronounced like English "j". It is only for the ignorance of learners who don't care about the real sound this pronunciation has been spread. With all those "helpful" directions to say "Jia gwitch" you have this lamentable result. Watch Ros na Rún - they say "Dia dhuit" every 5 minutes. And it is NEVER "Jia gwitch"! So "Jeep" is not equal "díp" on 85% of Irish speaking territory. if you don't like "síp" - then you can have "dsíp" for that matter.

quote:

I thought it weren't the English names which changed to Séamas and Seán but Norman French names.

Normans didn't speak French of Académie Française, you know. Their French was mixture of Germanic and French, and to Ireland they came from Britain not from France directly. So was it "j" or "zh" - you can't be so sure.

When I said 'díp' I mean a d homorganic with /ʎ/ which one might choose to use in a bilingual situation, not out of ignorance, but because it is a native sound (in Erris anyway) that is closer to the /dz'/ (in acoustic effect) sound than /s'/. That d can be homoorganic with a sort of slender /s'/ (all three the same position)

While diachronic arguments are fine, synchronic ones should get a look in too, I feel. I supposoe I take the attitute that one is best borrowing from other natives dialects rather than English

In truth, my pronunciation is a mix of Scottish and Irish...Scottish being the stronger of the two. So, I might not be saying it like the native speakers do, however, I am not a native speaker. Neither is the majority of Ireland so I would not say the dialects don't use it because I have heard the slender "d" come out as a "j" in all three Gaeltachts as well as be taught that way in some of the primary schools.

And yes, I do give the slender "d" for the most part the sound a "j" sound, and never once have I been corrected by native speakers, nor have I not been understood. And when they spoke to me, I am pretty sure that what I heard sounded like a "j" sound also.

As for the Ulster dialects not using it...ask the instructors of Oideas Gael and An Chrannóg how they tell their beginner level courses how to pronounce a slender "d"...and then tell me again that they don't use it?

As for the Connacht dialects...all I really know about them is what I have taken from Learning Irish. Granted is it is in the Cois Fhairrge dialect, but again when you listen to the recordings, it sounds like a "j" to me again. Now it could be the recordings aren't doing the speakers justice...I will allow this. But I am pretty sure the female speakers who are the clearest voices on the recordings are pronouncing a "j".

Sadly, Mr. Ó Siadhail chose to use a symbol I can't find on the IPA chart to represent his slender "d". However, given the speakers on the recordings...I can only assume he was agreeing with the palatal approximant.

Also...I have noticed that if you want to learn how to pronounce Irish, watching shows like Ros Na Run is not the best way to go about it because you tend you use your eyes more and brain less, not to mention read the subtitles and miss the show...

I think it is much better to listen to Radio Na Gaeltacht, especially the news programs because one they force you to use your ears, and two...they tend to stay contempary.

Gavin,

There is no point in this senseless discussion. You trust your own ears while deciding what is the sound - I trust scientific monographies and my ears. The difference between our ears is that in my native language there are broad and slender consonants - and there are none in English. Therefore I hear difference between broad [d] and slender [d`] in Munster what is beyond most English speakers, as the difference is slight and English ear doesn't perceive it although it is there. I hear that Conamarian sound is still difference and I would represent is [d`z`], where [z`] as a separate sound is completely alien to Irish and English, althogh very well present in East Slavonic languages and Lithuanian. And furthermore I hear the sound in Teillin is like English "j", the historical sound in Dún na nGall was the same as in Conamara, although recently Teillin type made inroads.

Re instructions at the schools of Irish. How do you suggest to explain to English speakers what a real [d'] is? Such sound doesn't exist, so they lump for nearest thing available in Englihs - "j", especially at least someone in Ireland uses it.

But look at the results of this policy - majority of learners think the other slender consonants (except "t") are some kind of fiction. They don't fathom how [m] is different [m`], or [k] from [k`] - because there is no English equivalent. The same people pronounce [k], [k`], [x] and [x`] with the same English [k] and think it is alright. It is not, my dear friends.

"I have noticed that if you want to learn how to pronounce Irish"

The best way is an open question given the utter lack of proceedure for good enunciation in Irish.

It must be a grand gift indeed to listen to a new langauge that differs fundamentally to the one one is used to, and then copy it from listing alone

"my pronunciation is a mix of Scottish and Irish" -I've heard that Scots Gaelic has no voice/unvoiced phonemic distinction, but between aspirated and non-aspirated forms (p with a puff vs p without); if so, your stantement is confusing

"But look at the results of this policy - majority of learners think the other slender consonants (except "t") are some kind of fiction"

Is it not some sort of 'philosophical' distinction?

Róman I have to ask...

Are you suggesting that because a person's native language is English...that they can not grasp the differences between slender and broad consonants because there are none in the English language?

Because if that is the case, then according to the last census 56% of Ireland can't grasp the differences either because that's how much of Ireland said they speak English or a language other than Irish.

Are you willing to tell one of these people that sorry, you may be Irish, but science says your Irish is wrong because the way you make your sounds doesn't fit the descriptions created by other people? You could win this argument with me, but I do not think you would have such an easy time with someone from Ireland on this one ;0)

And as for Scottish, it depends on the region really...my grandparents came from Lewis and they treated the language the same way the Irish do when it comes to sounds. Also, I have been to a few conferences with Muriel Fisher...a native of Skye...who is the leading figure for the Scottish language here in the States and she does the same.

I have heard that in the Highlands there are areas that pronounce the slender "d" and "t" as a broad sound...but that might be because of their location.

quote:

Is it not some sort of 'philosophical' distinction?

Is it meant to be a joke I suppose??? The broad and slender consonants sound differently. So they are called such and such not for fun, but because they are as different as e.g. English "k" and "g" are! There are many words that are distinguished by slenderness only - like "capall" vs "capaill". Those words do sound differently and are unambiguous. If you sound them the same - your pronunciation is wrong.

(Message edited by Róman on December 04, 2006)

Gavin,

Your stance is unhelpful and counter-productive. Irish is not some variety of English, it is not even a Germanic language, so it is different. In sounds, grammar, vocabulary and so on. Respect it! It is not for you to decide how Irish should sound - this has been "decided" by ancestors of Irish millennia ago.

quote:

Are you suggesting that because a person's native language is English...that they can not grasp the differences between slender and broad consonants because there are none in the English language?

I am suggesting that it is a very difficult task for an Englishman to learn proper Irish sounds, as HALF of them is lacking in English. I think there is no such other European language that would equip so badly for Irish studies as English is. In English as of England there are no sounds represented by Irish letters "ó", "é", "dh", "ch", "r", "ámha", "omha" and so on.

quote:

Are you willing to tell one of these people that sorry, you may be Irish, but science says your Irish is wrong

You deem it funny?! I deem it farsical and lamentable. And please do not confound Irish citizenship with Irish-speaking ability. There is no relationship between those two. Being Irish citizen in no way means your pronunciation is up to scratch.

quote:

the way you make your sounds doesn't fit the descriptions created by other people?

That's ridiculous! It is not the scientists who created Irish pronunciation. They just described what fluent speakers utter. If your pronunciation is worse than bad - it is YOUR problem, neither scientists' nor fluent speakers'. Irish exists not depending on your opinion of it - take it or leave it.

Maith an buachaill, a Romáin; sin é dióc! Níl mo bhlas do dona mar a chloiseann mé an difríocht idir caol agus leathan

A BhRN,

"Dióc"? Ní thuigim é, níl an focal so sa bhfocloir Ó Domhnalla. Agus "cloiseann mé"? Cad é seo? "closim", an ea?

Tá an-áthas orm go gcloisir an difríocht go maith idir caol agus leathan, ach an abrair iad chomh maith leis?

Is mise 7rl

"joke" atá i gceist aige.

"ach an abrair iad chomh maith leis? "

No!

Curious...

I never said Irish was an Germanic language nor was I comparing the two...but one cannot deny the Celtic influences on the English of Ireland in its pronunciation, grammar, and even idioms.

Also, when I said Irish, I was not speaking of Irish citizenship...I was speaking of the majority of people in Ireland who by now have had many years of Irish in the school systems. You mean to tell me that in all of these years of Irish courses they never went over proper sound formation? I find that hard to believe. In my experiences, Irish people who have had years of training...even if they choose not to speak it, are doing the same phonetic mistakes, I think that is worth noting.

Also...it is partly the fault of science here. Maybe the scientists themselves are not guilty, but the science they are using is. Think about it, thanks to the linguistic sciences we now have concrete discriptions and rules that govern sound. And because of these rules...if the sound the person is making doesn't fit these discriptions, then the person is making the sound incorrectly and therefore wrong.

"this has been "decided" by ancestors of Irish millennia ago."

I am sorry but I do not think this is very accurate to say because frankly the Irish of today did not come from the Irish of millennia ago. The Irish of today has only been around for about 500 years and it came to be right before outside forces declared an all out war against it.

And in my opinion, "Modern Irish" should really only include the Irish after the spelling reform of the 1930's and 40's because they completely changed the language to reflect modern pronunciations. Which means that the other spellings must have reflected an older or different pronunciation...while I admire what they did, I must also admit that they may have failed the Irish language by not enforcing the central pronunciation scheme they were working with when they created the spellings.

If one cannot sit back and laugh with the issues of Irish, then I fear one has no sense of humor.

A BhRN,

Cad 'na thaobh ná habrair iad? Mar gur cuma leat nó éinní eile?

A Aonghuis,

Go raibh maith agat! And this is the point - as I pronounce in Munster way, "dióc" DOES NOT sound like "joke" i n-aon chor/ar chor ar bith! In English letters it is something like "dyor-k", what doesn't even resemble "joke".

Tá's agam. Ach tá cleachtadh agam ar intinn BhRN faoi seo, agus tá sé níos fusa dá réir ormsa Bhéarla faoi chló gaelach a aithint.

Argóint sar-mhaith í seo. Ar aghaidh leat, leads, tuile fola, mas é bhur dtoil é

A Ghavin,

You are caught up in some kind of circular faulty logic. What you say really doesn't make sense.

quote:

...but one cannot deny the Celtic influences on the English of Ireland in its pronunciation, grammar, and even idioms.

Nobody was trying to deny this. But please make sure you understand where are you going with this argument. Irish as it was spoken in Ireland had a lot to do with Irish pronunciation, but now only rustic varieties of Anglo-Irish have some Irish sounds. Irish as spoken in cities, and most certaintly "posh" DART English is as Irish-influenced as Zulu. Major factor weighing on English in Ireland now is American pronunciation propagated through songs, movies, TV, not Irish language.

quote:

I was speaking of the majority of people in Ireland who by now have had many years of Irish in the school systems.

So? What does it prove? People badly taught a language and unable to say more than "Where is a loo?" have perfect pronunciation? Are you trying to conveyt this message? majority of Americans take Spanish - do all of them have perfect Spanish pronunciation as a result???

quote:

You mean to tell me that in all of these years of Irish courses they never went over proper sound formation?

If that was the level of competence of their teachers who said that "slender d" is "j" then the answer is a clear NO! Majority of Irish teachers in anglophone schools goad and hate the language, so I imagine what can they teach with such attitude!

quote:

In my experiences, Irish people who have had years of training...even if they choose not to speak it, are doing the same phonetic mistakes, I think that is worth noting.

Did I miss something??? If all Irish learners were unable to learn what a proper "slender d" sounds like, does it prove that it sounds like English "j"? Am I dreaming or what? Fortunately there are examples of learners aplenty who got over the "deaf and ignorant" ears of their peers and mastered the real sounds.

quote:

And in my opinion, "Modern Irish" should really only include the Irish after the spelling reform of the 1930's and 40's because they completely changed the language to reflect modern pronunciations.

That is really laughable! ME, as a FOREIGNER, I know better that the changes in the language reflected in the spelling reform happened already in 16-17 century at the latest. The silent letters were written by tradition since then, not because anyone pronounced it. And technically speaking "Modern Irish" is something what started in 13-14 century and lasts till now.

p.s. Ignorance is kind of bad reason for laughing, it is a better ground to cry.

Ach tá cleachtadh agam ar intinn BhRN faoi seo

Ní thuigim! "I have a habit to agree with ... about that"? Doesn't make sense to me! Do you agree or not anois?

A Shuaimhnis,

Ciocu acu is fearr leat "tuilleadh fola" nó "tuile fola"?

Is mise 7rl

tá cleachtadh agam ar X = tá taithí agam ar X

"but now only rustic varieties of Anglo-Irish have some Irish sounds. Irish as spoken in cities, and most certaintly "posh" DART English is as Irish-influenced as Zulu"

Is it coddin' me y'are, Roman? Inside in the centre o' Dublin, yous will still find the influence. Stay off o' the Dart, it's not good for ye, and tha'

"Majority of Irish teachers in anglophone schools goad and hate the language, so I imagine what can they teach with such attitude! "

This is not true, and and an insult to the majority of Irish teachers that I know. Where's your evidence for this, Roman?

Ciocu acu is fearr leat "tuilleadh fola" nó "tuile fola"?

Araon!

A Dhennis, go raibh maith agat!

A Shuaimhnis,

Pronunciation is Dublin is certainly the least influenced by Irish as on the whole of eastern shore. As you know better than me Bleá Cliath was never properly Irish, so there you can find remains of English colonists' speech beautifully preserved, but what it has to do with Irish?

By Irish-influenced varieties I meant more something what is still found e.g. in rural Contae Chorcaí, .i. places where Irish was lost recently - 2-3 generations ago.

Re teachers - I admit I got off the handle. But still if you take primary teachers who actually haven't chosen Irish as their career, but Irish is forced on them: I remeber reading a lot about their negative attitude. Of course this should not apply to people who have devoted their whole life to teaching solely Irish. MY APOLOGIES!

Well then let me ask this...

Do you honestly believe that a native speaker from 1950's Galway would be able to understand a person from 1850's Galway?

Personally, I do not think they could? And although we will never know for sure...I am willing to put money on them not being able to because I have seen how even today the Connacht dialects struggle with understanding each other from time to time.

As I said earlier, my introduction to Irish was Learning Irish in the Cois Fhairrge Irish. Now I wasn't the strongest speaker at the time, I will admit this, but one thing I had down were the examples in the course...when I spoke simple sentences using plurals most of the people I was speaking to did not recognize the words when I used the "i:" endings. But as soon as I switched to their endings they understood right away. So it wasn't their knowledge of Irish that kept them from understanding me...it was their knowledge of the other dialects that hindered them.

That was like 10-12 years ago, and I am willing to bet the differences have only grown with time.

quote:

when I spoke simple sentences using plurals most of the people I was speaking to did not recognize the words when I used the "i:" endings.

Which endings come out as an "í" in certain dialects?

Fuinneoga?
Duaiseanna?

Any others?

There are quite a few: duilleogaí, bláthannaí, éanachaí, srl.

I've heard them from Connemara speakers, but I couldn't say which subdialects.

Abigail

If you go by Learning Irish...

"All plural forms of more than one syllable ending in -cha, -nna, -nta, -óga are pronounced as though spelt -chaí, -nnaí, -ntaí, -ógaí." (Learning Irish, Lesson 3, p.11)

Personally I have always enoyed this pronunciation...but many Irish speakers don't catch on when I start doing it.

Since this strays from standard pronunciations, I like to use these with people to see their reactions...and over the years I have gotten quite a few reactions from people.

The most common response usually goes something like "say that last one again...or...I don't think that's quite right now."

The funny thing about the Cois Fhrairrge "subdialect" is that some people argue that due to its relatively isolated location...its plural scheme may be closer to, or may more closely resemble the natural evolution of Irish and where it was going.

Personally, I don't know about that...that might be hindsight getting the best of us, but it is worth mentioning in my opinion.

To be honest, I don't really notice it when people use those plurals in speech - that's why I couldn't begin to tell you where in Connemara they're found. In a song I'd be more aware of them, but in conversational Irish I understand what they mean and that's enough.

That may simply be because I'm still a learner and it's all I can do to keep up a running conversation. I don't have the attention to spare for analyzing anyone's dialect. Maybe someday when I'm halfway fluent...

I agree with Róman; it baffles my mind how slender L should sound different than broad. But I always thought this inability to perfectly mimic native speakers was just called an accent ... where is the line drawn?

A Aindreas a chara,

I haven't heard from yourself in forever. Write to me le do thoil. I have something sort of exciting to tell you.

As to native English speakers recognizing slender and broad consenants, I can tell the difference between slender and broad Ls and I can make both sounds but its hard to make them on command. I understand Ss, and Ts (for the most part I think), and I might be able to do the others if someone sat down with me and worked at it with me because I suspect that with practice I might begin to sort of figure it out.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Rómán,

is fíor annamh a bhímse ar aon fhocal le BRN (nó pé ainm atá aige an tseachtain seo).

Agus fanaim glan ar argóintí faoi foghraíocht. Ní teangeolaí mé, agus mórchuid den am, níl tuairim dá laghad agam cad faoi go bhfuil sibh ag streachailt.

“By Irish-influenced varieties I meant more something what is still found e.g. in rural Contae Chorcaí, .i. places where Irish was lost recently - 2-3 generations ago.”

It sounds to me as it if a lot of Cork people have retained some of the rhythm and intonation of Irish

“Do you honestly believe that a native speaker from 1950's Galway would be able to understand a person from 1850's Galway?”

That is only a 100 year span –a person in 1950’s Galway could have lots of memories of speaking to their grandparents who grew up with famine and pre-famine Irish, so I think your idea is unfounded. Anyway, what ever changes they were, the dialect studies don’t support a radical change between the two dates that would lead to absolute incomprehension. It would seem language transmission in Conamara was stable during those years.

“I have seen how even today the Connacht dialects struggle with understanding each other from time to time.”

It is questionable if you are not mixing up learners and natives and each from different parts of the country; if not, perhaps it is a case of ‘generational dialect’ where loss of a community language shatters it into different types relative to age as the group as a whole switches to a new tongue.

“Personally I have always enjoyed this pronunciation...but many Irish speakers don't catch on when I start doing it” That is not necessity pronunciation, more morphology. Isn’t there a development to add and add endings on words to lengthen them, (made up) ex: cat --> cait, caitithe; bó àbóanna, bóannaí, bóannaíaithe (perhaps I’ve gone too far)

“Since this strays from standard pronunciations” –no standard plural morphology

“I agree with Róman; it baffles my mind how slender L should sound different than broad. But I always thought this inability to perfectly mimic native speakers was just called an accent ... where is the line drawn?”

Rómán has just blustered for the last few day that A DISTINCTION EXISTS, and people think he means it does not! I’d keep the head low for a while –it could get blustery….

What I think can happen is that learners look at the page, pronounce it like they do in English, and as they dont have the Gaelic distinctions in their langauge, set up a feedback loop where they turn to themselves, rather than natives, for sounds. This ends up meaning that, along with the low social position (and 'gutteral' native sounds (read ugly)) of natives, automatically anything that diverges from English is thrown out. Maybe this could better be discussed as a cultural or class based debate, rather than a linguistic one.

From my point of view, at least, correct pronounciation is about putting both phonemic (important) sounds and allophonic (versions of those sounds) in the right places at the right time. To say (which is what is been alleged) that Irish is ‘all about accent’ would imply any sounds could be used and if would make sense. To turn the 1850-1950 debate on its head, I don’t think a native Conemara person from post famine Irish would be so easily able to understand an urban Free State learner with English pronounciation from 1950. What’s been impleied here is that if a foreign language is not the same as English, it's that they are been a bit ‘local’ or ‘idiosyncratic’ for ones taste

Slender l and broad l are incredibly different; so different in fact, that I doubt that theI defy someone not hear the difference. I think there is a confusion/ignorance of what broad and slender mean. If presented with a very ‘viscous’ velarised dental l from Conamara, and then a fortis palatal l, as in ‘William’, most speakers of languages with phonemic r and l distinctions would be expected to perceive the difference. They are starkly divergent.

Actually not many people can honestly say that they know someone who grew up in the famine these days...

From 1800-1860 the average life expectancy in Ireland was 22 for men and 26 for women while the average age for women to have their first child was 15. The life expectancy didn't go into the 30's until after 1900's...so there could be many generations....

Starting from 1850, and assuming a family was fortunate to be able to live up to the statistics...which usually wasn't the case...there is a potential for up to 3 or 4 generations between 1850-1900 alone.

I am no spring chicken...but my great-grandfather was only born in 1892. And my great-great-grandfather was born in 1860.

The point I am trying to make is that 100 years might be a bigger span of time than you think it is...

Personally, Gavin, I have less difficulty understanding rural speakers in any version of Irish than I do with the self same people speaking english.

Part of that is exposure due to RnaG.

And I have no difficulty reading Irish written 100+ years ago, apart from the same difficulty I would have in any language, i. lack of domain specific vocabulary.

That short a lifespan!?

I've been doing my family tree going through the parish records and find that

John b1794 had a son Thomas b1815

that Thomas had seven children born between 1843 and 1854

Thomas' son John b1851 had 11 children by the same woman between 1872 and 1898 ! (the first was illegitimate)

Some of those older than 1794 were long-lived as well. While we lack exact dates for them, it seems that evenly distributed they could have all had the next generation at about age thirty, save one born 1585 and lived at least to 1657, had a son who was my ancestor (possibly his youngest) around 1630-40.

You know, I've often wondered (in an effort to bring my response back on topic) when Gaeilge stopped being spoken in central Tipperary (namely, Cashel)? I'm wondering who my last relatives were who would have spoken it as their first language...

As with all others...one's life span depends on a number of factors. The "better off" did have longer lifespans into the 60-70's.

I think the number I got was an average...I took it from the Irish census, which were the same numbers given by the British census.

And also...I was assuming that a woman would have a child around the age of 15, which is a big assumption on my part. I was trying to point out that it was possible to have a number of generations in a short span. And that to avoid thinking of the 1800-1900's as we might think on the 1900-2000's. Because times were very different.

I really don't have any trouble reading Irish written in the 1800's either, however, I am not certain that I could understand a person speaking Irish from the 1800's. As I said before, sadly we will never know. What I do know is that even for only a 100 year difference, there were differences between the two which could hinder communication.

And vocab would be a major one...leaving modern technology out of it, slang and words have changed over the years. I am not saying, it would be impossible to communicate, I am saying that there will have to be extra effort on both parties to understand clearly.

quote:

I am not certain that I could understand a person speaking Irish from the 1800's. As I said before, sadly we will never know.

Speak for yourself, Gavin! As a well developed literary language, Irish had grammar treatises well describing the tongue as early as 10th century. So differently from you majority of scholars have a pretty clear view how Irish sounded 500-600 years ago. And Irish in pre-famine Ireland sounded THE SAME as Irish now, NO big changes in sounds are witnessed, only for gradual spread of alveolar d, t,n instead of dental ones, which is a minor thing anyway. Only grammar was a little bit more complicated then. Look a the Irish grammar from 1848 - the link has been posted couple of days ago. Tthere is a huge chapter on pronunciation in all dialects there. It is THE SAME as now.

"I really don't have any trouble reading Irish written in the 1800's either, however, I am not certain that I could understand a person speaking Irish from the 1800's. As I said before, sadly we will never know. What I do know is that even for only a 100 year difference, there were differences between the two which could hinder communication. "

Dialect studies of Achill and Donegal from the early 20th century make it clear that their informants included those who grew up during the famine. Irish seems to have a tendency to 'degrade gracefully', i.e dative sing overtaking nom sing, the substitution of high front /i:/ for the old high-back sound represented by 'ao' as in 'saol', trilled r overtaken by flapped r...these are not illogical changes; in fact they are so logical one can garner little titbits such as broad 'mhth' becoming f in the orthography (/β̻/).

I'm not in a position to do a deep analysis of the changes, but you seem to be begging the question. You may have heard of the story of Micheal Collins' blacksmith friend whose grandfather made pikes for the 1798 rebellion. Dubhaltach Mac Firbisigh, a 17th century scholar was supposed to have been killed at the age of 85. While that is not proof, the idea that peopel are endlessly extending their life I think is overplayed. Half of the country is dying from heart attacks nowadays.

" I am saying that there will have to be extra effort on both parties to understand clearly."

No you pointed out that between native speakers communication between generations is and was impossible

Btw regarding this argument - I just downloaded grammar from 1808 (Co Dún). It is 200 years old and surprise, surprise, I have NO PROBLEM understanding Irish there.

Anyway - in the first section author describes Irish sounds as of Ulster(!). Let's read what he has to say about "d":

D 1. thick before "a", "o" or "u", this sound is not found in English
2. liquid before "e" or "i" as "d" in "guardian".

If guardian is pronounced with "j" type sound - then I am Jesus! And this is Ulster, not even Munster!

In notes the notion of "thick sound" is explained in detail:

"The thick sound of "d" and "t" resembles the hardest sound of "th", in the English word "think"; but in forming this thick sound, the tongue must be strongly pressed against the root of the upper foreteeth, instead of being protruded between the teeth; by which means the aspiration is completely stopped, and these consonants receive nothing of that semivocal sound which is given to "th" in English." This is obvious description of dental "d".

So it is clear how "d" was pronounced in Co Dún 200 years ago! And seemingly learners cared a lot more for correct pronunciation as sounding explanation were much more thorough and didn't offer to say "j" instead of "slender d"!

I also took a look at the grammar book from 1808 and as a beginner and although I just skimmed through the book, I didn't have any problems understanding the Irish and found the phonetic guides very similar to today's grammar books.

I especially like the part of this thread that discusses the correct pronunciation of a slender "d," since I've always had the suspicion that it is NOT like the English "j" It seems to me (just a beginner) that the slender "d" is like a dental "d" but that the tongue slips a little from the teeth when the "d" is pronounced. This sound to me is very different from a "j" where the tongue doesn't even touch the teeth. Instead the "j" is sounded by the tongue touching the the roof of the mouth and then slips upon pronunciation of the "j"

Does any of what I write above make sense? If so, I wonder what the correct, linguistic terms are for the difference between a slender "d" and the English "j."

Also, I wasn't able to figure out how to download the complete book. Could someone tell me how?

Go raibh maith agaibh.

Rinne me amach é sin. I needed to RIGHT-CLICK on the "pdf download" icon, then SAVE TARGET.

By the way, I think that it's interesting how easy it is to read the ENGLISH of the book also. Before looking at the book, I suspected that the English words would look a lot like the words found in American documents from the same time period. For example, when reading stuff from say the American Declaration of Independence, many of the words are hard to read (crazy looking "s" letters and such). I'm wondering if that's because of the fonts used by Thomas Jefferson and others, or were there different styles of writing between the soon-to-be United States and the IONA (Islands of the North Atlantic)?

FRC-GRMA

A Mhic Léinn na Gaelainne,

quote:

the slender "d" is like a dental "d" but that the tongue slips a little from the teeth when the "d" is pronounced.

Exactly! The best way to describe Conamarian slender "d" is to think of the tongue slipping on a tooth an falling down as a bad skater on the rink. In the process a sound similar to "z" is produced, but it is very short and soft. and yes it doesn't remind English "j" at all!

quote:

how easy it is to read the ENGLISH of the book

Yes, but some expressions clearly changed their meanings since then. All those "promiscuous idioms" make me smile . But the best of all are the infamous "damsels" doing stuff - inviting the "youths", then being invited by the youths. I just imagined - how those "damsels" should have looked like :o)

I'll have to read the book to find the "damsels" section since the search function doesn't work for finding any words.

I noticed the absence of fadas on the pronouns mé, tú, é starting on Page 39. Are these typographical errors, or was the introduction of the fadas in these pronouns a later development in Irish?

"it's interesting how easy it is to read the ENGLISH of the book also"

Apart from the first page to 'his excellency'

Anyone got anything by "General Vallancey" -he is criticised elsewhere

The ablative case. Most read up on that. (I know it is not in Irish, by the way)

It looks like he followed grammar books a lot as some of his statements on the liquids diverge from that of linguists. Did he do some personal research too? Something about it suggest he did, but the section on triphthongs suggest he took trigrafs to be triphthongs.

Funny, is it just me, or is it easer to remember phrases that are untouched by the stigma of the Caighdeán? ha ha

He also has ar + noun = eclipsis which differs from Donegal. It will be interesting to read, but I wonder is it a mixed bag, rather than dialect specific?

I thought it was odd that the 1808 Grammar book used the Roman script but still used the dot for lenition.

I think the situation is this: the Munster slender d = Russian дь and the Connaught slender d = дьзь (a bit of a Ukrainian twang to the Galway accent?? :-))

On the point of no sound changes in 150 years: the f has become labiodental...

quote:

I thought it was odd that the 1808 Grammar book used the Roman script but still used the dot for lenition.

I think that was a common feature of printing at the time. I have German books from that time which use Roman script, and then 50 years later similar books use Fraktur.

We were having this debate (actually, it wasn't so much of a debate as everyone agreed :)) the other night at my language class.

It's pretty lazy to resort to English terminology when there are alternatives.

And what's with that dialect of English with a Scottish accent in Ulster that's been getting special attention recently? That's not even a language.

I don't think the use of English words in Irish especially on TV is all bad. In fact I think it's quite a positive sign for the language at this time. You'll notice on shows like Ros na Rún, Aifric etc.. how they'll alternate between sentences like 'bhfuil tú alright? and 'bhfuil tú ceart go leor?. I think this shows that TG4 is reaching a wider audience than native Irish speakers alone and these examples of Hiberno Irish are educational in effect. It's important to keep those with school Irish entertained and TG4 are doing a great job, dar liom.

Le meas,
Mise :)

quote:

I don't think the use of English words in Irish especially on TV is all bad. In fact I think it's quite a positive sign for the language at this time. You'll notice on shows like Ros na Rún, Aifric etc.. how they'll alternate between sentences like 'bhfuil tú alright? and 'bhfuil tú ceart go leor?. I think this shows that TG4 is reaching a wider audience than native Irish speakers alone and these examples of Hiberno Irish are educational in effect. It's important to keep those with school Irish entertained and TG4 are doing a great job, dar liom.

Cac tairbh!

Since when is it heartwarming to hear English instead of Irish when you're supposed to be hearing Irish. What purpose is served by:

-Conas atá tú?
-Tá mé alright.

It's a bastard, mongrel contamination. End of. I can't believe an actual Irish language enthusiast not only condones this molestation of the Irish language, but also goes on to endorse it?!

As regards "positive sign", "educational", "entertained"... I wouldn't be suprised if this were all a Government plot to slowly mold Irish into English. They aim to replace Irish vocabulary with English vocabulary at a rate of 5% per year, resulting in complete replacement of the Irish language within two decades. Sounds like a great plan, and it seems to be fluorishing beautifully.

The Irish language doesn't need compromise, adaptation, adjustment, watering-down and cowardly succumbnation to the English language -- it needs complete and utter abandonment, condemnation and assault of all the childish cowardly bastardisations that contaminate it. Get rid of the "h" and bring back the dot. Burn the Caighdeán. Get rid of childish little words like "fón". Hang, draw and quarter anyone who thinks "Tá mé happy" is Irish.

"'bhfuil tú alright?"
NOOOOOOOOO!!! :)

A question. Would the debasement of Irish into a mongrel mish-mash of Irish and English ('Eighris' perhaps :) )be a fate worse than death? If the language must die (and I hope it goes without saying that it is my most fervent wish that it should not), would it be best for it to 'die with dignity'?

I personally don't know, but recently I feel more and more drawn to the 'death with dignity' side of the argument. All or nothing. Complete restoration to it's former position as the language of every sphere of life in this country, the equal of every other language in the world, or let it become the venerable old language, learned and enjoyed by a handful of scholars and enthusiasts that many other languages have become.

Brilléis, a Fhir na mBróg.

Oscail do shúile agus do chluasa do theangacha seachas an Bhéarla, maith an fear, agus tuig an saol mar atá sí, ní mar is mian leat í a bheith.

Seachain ná sciorrfá ar an sciodar tairbh atá á scaipeadh agat fhéin.

A Shéamus, agus a FnaB.

Molaim díobh fanacht glan ar Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe, ar mhaithe le bhur sláinte, muna féidir libh cur síos lena leithéidí.

Saerbhreathach Cinseallach - "And what's with that dialect of English with a Scottish accent in Ulster that's been getting special attention recently? That's not even a language."

Absolutely right.
Did you see that documentary on the BBC a few nights ago (can't remember it's name). Some silly bitch descended from some early Scottish planters. It was truly pathetic (her little conversation with her 'papa' - I almost pitied them:) ).
But the worst part was her conversation with some gobshite named MCEvoy who she claimed was a perfect example of an 'Ulster-Scot' (McEvoy is an Irish name).
She got him to give us some examples of his 'native language' and the poor eejit even said that he didn't know he spoke two languages until someone told him a few years before. Amazing isn't it? The man was bi-lingual and he didn't even know it! :)
I wonder if my Wexford accent could be regarded as another language aswell? Wexese maybe?

"Molaim díobh fanacht glan ar Ghaeltacht na Gaillimhe, ar mhaithe le bhur sláinte, muna féidir libh cur síos lena leithéidí."

"I advise ye to stay completely away from the Galway Gaeltacht, for the good of your health, if ye cannot describe with their/it's type".

Did you mean 'cur suas lena leithéidí' - put up with their type (an English idiom!!! :) )?

cur suas a bhí i gceist agam, gan amhras. Ach an bhfuil tú cinnte gur Béarlachas é sin?

Táim brean bailithe de dhaoine ag leagan síos an dlí do ghaeilgeoirí, as Béarla.

Féach an méid atá faoi "cur" sa bhFoclóir beag:

cur suas (gríosú (is tusa a chuir suas leis é); diúltú (cur suas de bhia); glacadh le (is deacair cur suas leis)).

Ach, dár ndóigh, is mó na saineolaithe sibhse ná de Bhaldraithe agus Ó Dónaill.