Hello,

I'm doing linguistics project for a grad level Syntax course and I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help with some sentence translations. We're specifically studying pronouns and reflexives and comparing cross linguistically among English, Korean, and Japanese. I'd love to get some information from an Irish speaker (I am currently applying to PhD programs in Ireland, but I don't have a contact with whom I am close enough to ask for translations).

If anyone here can give me some help, I'd greatly appreciate it. We can communicate here, or by email. I'll check back here, or you can contact me at . Thank you.

Danielle

I can help you if you want :-)

I really appreciate it. We're in the early stages of the project right now, and I won't need more some sentence translations. I'll let you know when I have the sentences, which will probably be in the next few days. Thanks for the help!

Hello,

Okay, I have three sentences to be translated, though they are a lot harder than pronouns. If it's too weird or too hard, I totally understand. It's important for me to have the correct Irish word order, but if it is at all possible to have the word for word translation back in English so I can compare the structure of the sentences, it would be even better (but not absolutely necessary).

If you only want to do one, that's fantastic. We're specifically looking at the way the infinitive clause is formed.

1. "John forced Marie to speak English."

If possible, could you also tell me what case "Marie" is getting? It seems like it should be accusative, but it can also get nominative case in Korean.

2. "Robert knows that it is important to behave well."

This one is complicated, and took a while for other native speakers to translate into other languages. The question here is: what meaning does it have in Irish? Is it Robert that's behaving well, is it everyone in the world, or can it be both? Does it depend on the inflection of behave? This one's the most complicated, I think.

3. "John is reluctant to leave."

The last didn't have any cross linguistic questions, but it's good to look at if it's the same across the board. If reluctnant is too odd, "happy" can be put in its place. The actual verb isn't that important.

Even if you can give me just one of these sentences, I would be eternally grateful. Thank you for even reading.

Danielle

(Message edited by Danielle on November 12, 2006)

(Message edited by Danielle on November 12, 2006)

OK, first thing I'll say is that I'm not a native speaker. I can speak fluently, but there are limits to my abilities. I'll give it a go.

quote:

1. "John forced Marie to speak English."

If possible, could you also tell me what case "Marie" is getting? It seems like it should be accusative, but it can also get nominative case in Korean.

Chuir John iallach ar Marie Béarla a labhairt.

Word for word, this would be something like the following in English:
John put a compulsion on Marie to speak English.

Here is how the words correspond:
put = chuir (verb, past tense)
a compulsion = iallach (noun)
on = ar (preposition)
to speak = a labhairt (verbal noun)
English = Béarla (noun)

Because "Marie" appears after a preposition, it assumes the dative case.

quote:

2. "Robert knows that it is important to behave well."

This one is complicated, and took a while for other native speakers to translate into other languages. The question here is: what meaning does it have in Irish? Is it Robert that's behaving well, is it everyone in the world, or can it be both? Does it depend on the inflection of behave? This one's the most complicated, I think.

Tá a fhios ag Robert gur tábhachtach thú féin a hiompar go maith.

In English, word for word, this would be:

Robert has its knowledge that it is important to carry yourself well.

(I don't think there's a verb like "behave" in Irish.)

has = tá X ag Y (Y has X)
its knowledge = a fhios
that it is important = gur tábhachtach
to carry = a hiompar
yourself = thú féin
well = go maith

quote:

3. "John is reluctant to leave."

The last didn't have any cross linguistic questions, but it's good to look at if it's the same across the board. If reluctnant is too odd, "happy" can be put in its place. The actual verb isn't that important.

Tá drogall ar John fágáil.

There is reluctance on John to leave.

There is = tá
reluctance = drogall
on John = ar John
to leave = fágáil

John is happy to leave = Tá áthas ar John fágáil.

You are amazing! Thank you!

Am I correct in assuming that in sentence number 2, the person carrying them self well can be Robert, even if it doesn't have to be? That's the reading I get from the original sentence, and the retranslated English sentence, but I wanted to check.

I have lots of fun in front of me figuring out the syntax trees for these sentences!

quote:

Am I correct in assuming that in sentence number 2, the person carrying them self well can be Robert, even if it doesn't have to be?

Looking at it from a gramatical point of view, it's the second person singular. However, in normal speech, it could mean anyone.

As extremely helpful as you've been, I'm going to keep going. Please understand that you can stop guilt free at any time.

Okay, this one has two questions. First, would "John was asked to leave" have similar structure to "John is reluctant to leave"? Since "reluctant" is an adjective, I wasn't sure if it would be in the same position as "ask".

Second, would "put a compulsion" (or "put pressure" or something close to that) be used in the place of any verb close in meaning to "force"? For example: pursuade, urge, order, or require.

Thanks.

1. "John forced Marie to speak English."

Chuir Seán Máire (nominative case, in Old Irish it would have been Accusative) ag labhairt Béarla
= Thug Seán ar Mháire (dative case) Béarla a labhairt
= Chuir Seán iallach ar Mháire (dative) Béarla a labhairt.

There isn't any difference in Modern Irish between the nominative and the accusative cases. The accusative has been lost; thanks to the word order, we can know most of the time which one is the subject, which one is the object.

The problem can arise in sentences with a relative clause: an cat a d’ith an madadh can mean both "the cat that ate the dog" and "the cat that the dog ate".


2. "Robert knows that it is important to behave well."

Tá a fhios ag Roibeard go bhfuil sé tábhachtach bheith múinte
= Tá a fhios ag Roibeard gur tábhachtach é bheith múinte = Tá a fhios ag Roibeard go bhfuil sé tábhachtach do dhuine é féin a iompar go maith... (no h- in "iompar" after "a", Fear na mBróg did a mistake...)


3. "John is reluctant to leave."

Tá Seán leasc imeacht. (not sure for this one) = Is leasc le Seán imeacht. = Tá leisce ar Sheán imeacht. = Is doiligh le Seán imeacht.

To leave is more "imeacht" than fágáil. Fágáil means to live something (I think you must have an object with fágáil), imeacht means to go away (no object).


John was asked to leave

Iarradh ar Sheán imeacht. (in Donegal: Hiarradh ar Sheán imeacht).

Wow. Thanks! You're awesome.

I'll ask something more (again).

In sentence 2, the "é" means "he," correct? I also tried to look up "sé" which I also found meant "he." Is there another pronoun that can go in that space to shift the meaning of who needs to be well behaved?

do you mean in the last example given?

'Tá a fhios ag Roibeard go bhfuil sé tábhachtach do dhuine é féin a iompar go maith?'

i dont really understand what you mean, does this help?

- the 'sé' in this sentance means 'it', not he - Tá sé/go bhfuil sé tábhachtach means 'it/that it is important'in this context.
-and the 'é féin' means himself i.e. to behave himself

irish uses sé and é to mean both 'he' and 'it'.

"Robert knows that it is important to behave well."

I was trying to see if there was a way to say it in Irish so that the being behaving well can be Robert, or someone else. In English, the person behaving well can be to Robert, or a universal group of people. In Bulgarian, the person behaving well depends on the inflection of "behave."

"Tá a fhios ag Roibeard gur tábhachtach [é bheith múinte]."

Irish seems to have the pronoun "he" (or "it") as the subject of the subordinate clause. I was just wondering if "Robert" is the antecedent, or if it can be an arbitrary person.

Actually, the sentence as presented in English is a bit deceiving! Perhaps that's intentional given the parameters of your study.

In on-the-fly translating, I might easily assume that you meant that it's important for Robert to behave well... but the sentence can more accurately be written, in English, as "Robert knows that it is important that one behave well," or "Robert knows good behavior is important."

Sorry to interrupt here... just a general observance from an armchair linguist only newly learning Irish.

quote:

I was trying to see if there was a way to say it in Irish so that the being behaving well can be Robert, or someone else.

a) Tuigeann Roibeard gur cheart dó bheith múinte	Robert understands that he ought to be polite
b) Tuigeann Roibeard gur cheart bheith múinte	Robert understands that it is right to be polite

Thank you for the duel translations! Yes, the whole point is that the sentence is misleading, I'm working on Control for my Syntax class. In English, the null pronoun is ambiguous, but it appears that the same does not apply in Irish.

Very interesting.

In English, the third person singular for people is "he" and "she", "him" and "her".

He saw the dog. The dog saw him.
She saw the dog. The dog saw her.

If it isn't a person, then we use "it":

It saw the dog. The dog saw it.

In Irish, there is no word for "it", we use the same pronouns as we use for people. For instance.

He saw the dog = Chonaic sé an madra.
She saw the dog = Chonaic sí an madra.
The dog saw him = Chonaic an madra é.
The dog saw her = Chonaic an madra í.

When talking about something which isn't a person, you have to consider whether the object is masculine or feminine. The Irish for "window" is "fuinneog", and it is feminine. If "it" refers to a window, then you have:

Chonaic sí an madra. Chonaic an madra í.

The Irish for "table" is "bord", and it is masculine. If "it" refers to a table, then you have:

Chonaic sé an madra. Chonaic an madra é.

If you don't know what "it" refers to, then I think you just use the masculine form.

So you see, we call dead objects "him" and "her" in Irish!

"hey lad, give her spruce; give her whashkey!" (please accelorate the car)

"She's leppin up agin" (cattle)

In country english, you can still hear people use mostly 'her' to refer to objects

In Irish, there is no word for "it",

I think there is one exception though, with the Irish word ea, which is used for "it" in the abstract sense. For example: an ea? (is it?) or múinteoir is ea é (he is a teacher)

BRN,

Not only in rural English. The ship (and by extension airplanes) are referred "she" by the crew. Another example - countries are usually referred to as "she, her" but this is fading away. Still in the careful speech you hear:

The volume of England's export has risen 5% last year, her (not its!) exports were destined mainly to the EU.