Perhaps this has been dealt with before, but I was wondering what contributors views were on the Dingle/Daingean Ui Chúis/An Daingean issue. I think the plebescite on the issue is to happen this month

In another thread currently running, the question has been raised as to whether signage promotes the language.

From listening to views locally, it would appear that it is primarily the business interests, and particularly those involved in tourism who seem to be most vocal. In the Gaeltacht west of Dingle there seems to be little enough interest from what I can gather.

Gnéas sells... But i say
Gaeilge sells.. I'd say all the free debating about this question is a better campaign than Bord Fáilte could organise..

Tugann mé mo chuid tacaíochta do cheann ar bith den dá leagan Gaeilge.

Those of us who remember the older Irish names of towns are not so happy with the new abbreviated versions. "An tAonach" doesn't appeal as much as "Aonach Urmhumhan" or "Gort" for "Gort Inse Guaire" and unhappily for "An Daingean" in Corca Dhuibhne there is another "Daingean" in Contae Uíbh Fháilí known for its Reformatory. "Daingean Uí Chúis" would probably be preferable for this reason. It is not as if placenames in Irish can't be recognised and used by foreigners. "Dún Laoghaire", "Port Laoise", and "Cóbh" are accepted without a second thought. I'm delighted however that the Irish is being given precedence in the Gaeltacht for official purposes at least. Hopefully this policy will be extended to the rest of the country eventually. And why not? It's our language!

I liked calling it An Daingean while I was in Eire, though I think some Irish unexperienced with their language thought it was perculiar to hear that. Most everyone I talked to called it Dingle.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I was in the shop in Ceann Trá on Tuesday and I overheard (it's a very small shop;)) a customer saying "isteach in nDingle a bhí sé". He was fluent but I couldn't say whther he was a native speaker.

I thought it strange to hear Dingle and not An Daingean in a sentence as gaeilge. I'm fairly new to the area so I don't know if this is common down here. Aonghus might know

In all fairness it's most widespread name was Dingle so it may take a while to change..
Somhairle, i've heard muintir na gaeltachta do that all the time in every gaeltacht.. Maybe it's a subconcious thing in the gaeltacht where people speak Gaeilge the place gets it's Ainm Gaelach and outside where they speak Béarla it gets it's Ainm Bhéarla.. N'fheadar é!

"isteach in nDingle a bhí sé"

How common are relative phrases in Munster? Or, is it just Cork that is really grammatically conservative?

A Shuaimhneas a chara, (should I stick an i in after the a at the end to soften the s in the vocative?)

So you are new to the area, that is interesting, do you like it? You said you lived West of An Daingean as I recall and you have a daughter. Is her school all in Irish, I hope so considering whare you guys are.

Beir bua agus beannacht

A Riona

It's heaven on earth as far as I am concerned. Unfortunately, my work takes me on a weekly basis all over the country and to the UK, and as you realise, An Daingean is quite a distance from any where else. So my youngest daughter is still at school in Kildare. Her school is not lán-Gaeilge, but she is considering taking Gaeilge at University next year

I think An Daingean should be renamed Londondingle and and that An Daingean's Gaeltacht status should be taken from them. All this bad publicity that has been generated for 'mórphobal na Gaeilge' comes down to 3 roadsigns. Shame on them.

"An Daingean's Gaeltacht status should be taken from them"

This has been suggested as an option by Minister O Cuiv

The Irish Times (What people have said)
01/05/2005
"It is An Daingean, full stop," ... "People can not insist on retaining "Dingle" on signposts outside the Gaeltacht, but there is a possible solution, if that is the wish of the community, and that is to begin legislation to take An Daingean out of the Gaeltacht altogether. Even this might not be enough to change the legal status of the placename."
EAMON O CUIV MINISTER FOR THE GAELTACHT

for more see www.dinglename.com

"to begin legislation to take An Daingean out of the Gaeltacht altogether"

You know, they would rather be at that crack than actually any real focus

"this might not be enough to change the legal status of the placename"

So fetishised have laws become in Ireland that they are spoken about as somehow immutable and fixed

So if they change the name to not be An Daingean anymore does that mean that they're not in the Gaeltacht from hence forth?

Beir bua agus beannacht

No. Nothing is ever that simple.

And the plebiscite has no binding effect - it simply means that the County Council has to request that the government consider the matter.

And the old Triangle went "Dingle Dangle" agus mar sin ar aghaidh leis ......

Cóbh nó Queenstown?
Dún Laoire nó Kingstown nó Dunlery?
Muine Bheag nó Bagnalstown?
Rath Luairc nó Charleville?
Port Laoise nó Maryboro?
Nua Eabhrach nó New York nó Nueva York?
Muenchen nó Monaco nó Munich ?
Milano nó Miland nó Milan?
Baile Átha Cliath nó Dublin nó Dublino?
Tír Chonaill nó Dún na nGall?


Nach maith an beart polaitíochta é go rithfeadh rún i ngach baile an t-ainm Gaeilge bheith thuas go hoifigiúil?

quote:

Tír Chonaill nó Dún na nGall?

Thug mé faoi ndeara gurbh é "an contae seo" a deir lucht RnaG sna Doirí Beaga agus iad ag léamh na nuachta.

Tugaim faoi dheara gur nós ag LÁ gan logainmneacha eachtracha a ghaelú nó leagan Gaeilge a lorg muna bhfuil glacadh leathan leis an leagan. An t-aineolas a fhágáil mar a bhfaightear é is dócha.

Ar bhfaca tú Leathanach tosaigh inné : leagtha amach ar an stíl Independent Shasana agus ag labhairt faoi St. Andrews? Cill Rímhinn a thugann Gaeil na hAlban air, ach mo ghraidhn tuairisceoir Ultach ar RTÉ aréir a thug Naomh Aindriú air

Cill Aindriú a chuala ag RnaG ar maidin.

Tá leigheas ar an gceist seo, dar ndóigh: (i gcasanna airithe, ar a laghad).

http://www.focal.ie/Abc.aspx?lang=1&extent=bydomain&domain=1972&collection=104

---

An leagan Bascach a bhíonn ag Lá do logainmneacha sna críocha úd, agus an leagan spainníse i luibiní uaireanta.

"Cill Aindriú a chuala ag RnaG ar maidin. "

Bhal tá siad ag dul sa treo ceart. Cinn Rímhinn a bhí ar an áit roimhe .i. Ceann Chaorán an Rí.


"Tá leigheas ar an gceist seo, dar ndóigh: (i gcasanna airithe, ar a laghad).

http://www.focal.ie/Abc.aspx?lang=1&extent=bydomain&domain=1972&collection=104 "

Is minic a shamhlaím an saothar seo le toradh duine le salacharáil Gaeilge is Béarla agus gan teanga eile aige ná cur amach ar thíreolas a chuireadh isteach i seomra dorcha agus nár ligeadh amach é go dtí go raibh Gaeilge curtha aige ar liosta focal nár thuig sé ;)



"An leagan Bascach a bhíonn ag Lá do logainmneacha sna críocha úd, agus an leagan spainníse i luibiní uaireanta.

B'fhearr liom leagain Gaeilge roimh an pholaitíocht

Seo iad an lucht saothair:

http://www.irish.ie/foras/default.asp?catid=50

Is maith anaithnid iad, b'fhéidir ;)

"Tá leigheas ar an gceist seo, dar ndóigh: (i gcasanna airithe, ar a laghad).

http://www.focal.ie/Abc.aspx?lang=1&extent=bydomain&domain=1972&collection=104"

Dia ár sábháil i bhflaithis, ní raibh barúil dá laghad agam go raibh a leithéid ann ar chor ar bith.
Maith thú a Aonghuis gura maith'd

Ar aon chuma, seo nasc thíos leis an chóip Bhéarla den phobalbhreith a bhí seolta amach chuig na cónaitheoirí sa london-Dingleberry Muse, Corca Dhuibhne.

http://icecreamireland.com/2006/10/12/plebiscite-on-dingle-an-daingean

Nach deireann sé morán? Páipéar guthaíochta i mbéarla!

Democracy Dingle style:

quote:

However, the ballot is not secret, it has emerged. The name and address of the voter is on the ballot paper and each vote will also have to be witnessed by someone 'to whom you are known personally', according to instructions on the ballot paper.

quote:

People from the Yes campaign have also formed street by street committees and have advertised they are to collect the vote

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1376&viewby=date

Driving into An Daingean from Lios Póil last Monday the An Daingean on the signpost was disfigured with black spray paint and underneath had the word Dingle in large capitals!

A Aonghuis, that is a slight bit scary :) In my state you either mail in your ballots for elections or decisions or you take them to drop boxes, I like it this way. I suppose though that this particular vote isn't so formal.

Ultan, I remember you said you'd be in Ireland in Oct. I hope you had lots of fun and a grand visit.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Yes Riona we had a fantastic time.Go raibh maith agat. This time I found it very hard to leave. I visited Caitlín Nic Gearilt who runs Litriocht.com at Baile na nGall to pick up some bi-lingual books. She has just about everything you would want as Gaeilge and bi-lingual for children. Reasonable and very good service.

Ádh mór a chara.

quote:

A Aonghuis, that is a slight bit scary

I think it is very scary.

From where I see it:
First those in favour of the english name arranged the vote to be gerrymandered. Now they're going to march around the streets of Dingle ensuring the vote goes their way - and then claim the governement is ignoring the "democratic" will of the people, because the law doesn't allow for what they are proposing.

And all for the sake of a small handful of roadsigns...

(Message edited by aonghus on October 17, 2006)

Ní ólfaidh mé i dtigh Uí Fhlaithbheartaigh sa Daingle Queens Court Common ariamh arís. De bharr an tseasaimh seo tógtha ag mo dhuine, úinéir den phub.

An bhfaca sibh an nuacht aréir, agus an t-amhrán s'acusan in aghaidh an ainm An Daingean??
Ba cheart go mbeadh an stádas Gaeltachta bainte astu ar an bpointe.

Tá meon na Taliban Béarla fós beo bríomhar sa Ghaeltacht Corca Dhuibhne.
Dingle Daingean Uí Chúise agus an chuid Dhaingean Uí Chúise in iodálaigh agus beag freisin.

Go hifreann leo go léir.

Bhí frith amhrán i nGaeilge ar foinse na seachtaine seo. Seans go gcuirfead suas é, bhí sé greannmhar.

Bhí mé i dtólamh amhrasach i dtaobh na deathola a mhaígh daoine a raibh ag lucht an Bhéarla in Éirinn i leith na Gaeilge. Deathoil go deimhin, fhad is nár chuir an Gheaeilge isteach orthu. Agu má mheallann sí lucht caite airgid, tá sin go maith freisin. Ach í a labhairt, í a úsáid, ná bí ag magadh!

"First those in favour of the english name arranged the vote to be gerrymandered. Now they're going to march around the streets of Dingle ensuring the vote goes their way - and then claim the governement is ignoring the "democratic" will of the people, because the law doesn't allow for what they are proposing."

Not to stir anything up, but you know that Kerry people are 'single-minded' and quite thick when they want to be. It's looking a bit nasty, from the sound of it

Sin daonlathas duit!

Having just returned to An Daingean last Friday after a weeks absence, I found the place festooned with red and white "Vote Yes" signs. The main streets were also draped with red and white bunting (are these the town colours).

While I say many "Vote Yes" signs, I only saw one with "Vótáil Sea". I think that tells you a lot about where it this is all coming from

Is Vótáil Sea" gramatically correct? I suppose it depends on the ceist

"red and white bunting (are these the town colours)."

Could be. At least they are the colours of good old England, very appropriate...

It sounds like a frightful mess, I bet that if you don't vote the way they want you to, they'll hold it against you since they see who votes how.

Is "D-day" an Aoine seo chugann dar le Radio na Gaeltachta ar maidin

Comhghairdeas, a lucht LÁ.

Cill Rímhinn a bhí agaibh inniu.
(Féach thuas)

Ó! A dhiabhail. Tá an Sasanach ag amharc orainn:

1925314%2C00.html?gusrc=ticker-103704,http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/st ory/0,,1925314,00.html?gusrc=ticker-103704

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest

go there and click on the ireland graphical text under 'World latest'

Ag druidim le sprioc:

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1389&viewby=date

quote:

The ballot was not secret and each valid vote will have the name of the voter and of a witness. However, while the count will have to be in public, efforts will be made to keep the public from being able to see who voted which way, Mr O'Sullivan has said. The plebiscite is expected to be carried, since the people of the Gaeltacht hinterland have not been allowed to vote on the matter, and the vote has been confined to ratepayers and residents of An Daingean town.

Only some residents it must be said - only parts of the current built up area got the vote.

Is dóigh liom, i ndáirire, nach mbaineann an cheist le Gaeilge, baineann sé le fimínteacht an dá thaobh.

cloistear Gaeilge ann cinnte, mar a chloistear Polainnis i mBailre Átha Cliath. Ligtear orthu go bhfuil Gaeilge acu, agus tá ag dream acu. Ach an mbainfí an greim óna mbéal, beag an baol.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1020/daingean.html

No surprises (faraor)

Hah, It figures!

I will make it a point to definitely NOT visit "Dingle" when I am in Kerry next summer.

I wonder if there are any plans of organizing a boycott - That would certainly be ironic!

1005 "Yes"
70 "NO"
20 "Spoiled Votes"

Scríobh WFM:

I will make it a point to definitely NOT visit "Dingle" when I am in Kerry next summer.
I wonder if there are any plans of organizing a boycott - That would certainly be ironic!

You shouldn't look at this as being entirely the work of those preferring "Dingle" as the name. Many people also wished "Daingean Uí Chúis" restored instead of the vague/informal/misleading "An Daingean".

There is undoubtedly also an element of indignation at having a name "imposed" upon the town, so some of the "yes" votes may simply be a surrogate for a raised middle finger.

quote:

Many people also wished "Daingean Uí Chúis" restored instead of the vague/informal/misleading "An Daingean".

Restored? Ní logainm fíorstairiúil é Daingean Uí Chúis ar chor ar bith. Is ainm é a tháinig isteach le hathbheochan na Gaeilge céad bliain ó shin, nuair a shíl daoine go raibh logainmneacha fada mar sin ní ba ghalánta. Féach an méid seo a scríobh Séamas Ó Brógáin, saineolaí logainmneacha:

Ainm oifigiúil is ea "an Daingean." Agus ní giorrú de "Daingean Uí Chúis" é an t-ainm sin, ach a mhalairt ar fad. Is iad na foirmeacha is sine agus is údarásaí (seachas na foirmeacha is giorra) ar ghlac an Coimisiún Logainmneacha leo mar ainmneacha oifigiúla. I rith na gcéadta bliain cuireadh píosaí breise le hainmneacha éagsúla: Nás na Rí, Aonach Urmhumhan, srl. Níl na foirmeacha sin níos sine, níl siad níos cirte, ach níl sé ceart (i mo thuairimse) tuilleadh poiblíochta a thabhairt dóibh.

Bheadh seisean le ceangal ag cloisteáil vague/informal/misleading uait!

quote:

I will make it a point to definitely NOT visit "Dingle"

Tabhair cuairt ar an ainm eile mar sin! Agus cuir do shuim sa teanga in iúl dóibh. Ceannaigh leabhar Gaeilge sa Chafé Liteartha. Bain triail as do chuid Gaeilge sna siopaí.

Well, you've got a good point there, a Chionaodh.
I personally prefer "Daingean Uí Chúis" to either "An Daingean" or "Dingle". I wonder how it would have fared by itself instead of being lumped together with Dingle; this all looks very fishy to me without Daingean Uí Chúis being offered as a third choice.

"Daingean Uí Chúis" is the form I remember seeing on signs in the vicinity during the '80s & '90s -- I don't presume to say (nor was I implying) that it's the oldest form, but it's one which isn't duplicated in other areas.

That said, I often heard people in that region use "An Daingean" in informal reference to the town.

The reason for my choice of words --

vague/misleading: the name "An Daingean" occurs elsewhere.
informal: it's what the locals call it, but not what was on the signposts.

That's it. The choice isn't mine, as I'm not from there. But the choice should reside with those who are. Unfortunately, this vote today doesn't serve any purpose for people of that area other than as a means of expressing an opinion.

Badly.

This was only ever about the name "Dingle" - Daingean Uí Chúis was lumped in to pretend that "An Daingean" was a incorrectly and unjustly imposed name - which, as Dennis pointed out above, is simply not the case.

"An Daingean" has been the authoritative Irish name all along, and is the form most usually seen in Irish. It was endorsed by An Seabhac in 1927, and the extensive research of the Placenames commission endorsed it also.

Cionaodh,

There are many duplicate placenames in any country.

"An Daingean" is only used in one other place in Ireland; and there it is used without the article, Daingean, Co Offaly. Hardly likely to cause confusion since it is in an entirely different part of the country.

There are places called "Kill" in nearly every county, and dozens of Kilbride's etc.

I have only (in the last 4 years, being there every summer) seen "An Daingean" on signposts and on the signs in the town.

And all signposts west of Lispole have read "An Daingean" since 1973.

Well, you've got a good point there, a Chionaodh.
I personally prefer "Daingean Uí Chúis" to either "An Daingean" or "Dingle". I wonder how it would have fared by itself instead of being lumped together with Dingle; this all looks very fishy to me without Daingean Uí Chúis being offered as a third choice.

It's a nice town, a WFM -- don't let this little spat keep you away.

Although some small percentage of the "yes" vote may have been about preferring "Daingean Uí Chúis" or about protesting the imposition of "An Daingean", I would guess that a sizeable percentage of voters simply wanted to restore the status quo ante, including the use of "Dingle" as the primary identifier.

Just to recall the Act about which the brouhaha is, here is (the very modest, in my opinion) relevant section:-

http://www.acts.ie/ga.act.2003.0032.6.html#partv

(2) I gcás ina ndéanfaidh an tAire dearbhú faoi alt 32 i leith logainm i limistéar Gaeltachta, ní bheidh aon fheidhm ná éifeacht a thuilleadh leis an leagan Béarla den logainm amhail ar an agus ón dáta feidhme ach sin gan dochar d'aon ní arna dhéanamh roimh an dáta sin nó dá éis lena n-áirítear úsáid an leagain sin seachas a úsáid—
[EN]

(a) in aon Acht den Oireachtas a rithfear tar éis an dáta feidhme nó in aon ionstraim reachtúil a dhéanfar tar éis an dáta sin faoi aon Acht,
[EN]

(b) i cibé léarscáileanna, arna n-ullmhú agus arna bhfoilsiú ag Suirbhéireacht Ordanáis Éireann nó le cead uaithi, a bheidh forordaithe, nó
[EN]

(c) ar chomhartha bóthair nó sráide arna chur suas ag údarás áitiúil nó thar a cheann.

(2) Where the Minister makes a declaration under section 32 in respect of a placename in a Gaeltacht area, the English language version of the placename shall no longer have any force and effect as on and from the operative date but without prejudice to anything done before or after that date including the use of that version other than its use—
[GA]

(a) in any Act of the Oireachtas passed after the operative date or any statutory instrument made after that date under any Act,
[GA]

(b) in such maps prepared and published by or with the permission of Ordnance Survey Ireland as may be prescribed, or
[GA]

(c) on a road or street sign erected by or on behalf of a local authority.

---

The OS maps concerned are the large scale ones used for Planning, i.e. up to a scale of 1:9999

The Minister asked for, and obtained agreement for most map producers to use both versions of Gaelatcht names on tourist maps.

There is nothing to stop Dingle being marketed as Dingle, and the Minister has stated this publicly over and over.

Tá baile beag i ndeisceart na Fraince leis an ainm Montcuq. Maith go leor a deir tú... ach tá an fuaimniú ceannann céanna ag Montcuq agus atá ag na focail "mon cul"... a chiallaíonn "mo thóin"!!! Fuair mé cárta poist ón áit sin ó chara liom an samhradh seo. An gá a rá gur carte postale scigiúil a bhí ann?

Ach tá daoine an bhaile sin an-sásta leis an ainm, de réir dealraimh.

quote:

Daingean Uí Chúis was lumped in to pretend that "An Daingean" was a incorrectly and unjustly imposed name

What a underhanded trick!

quote:

It's a nice town, a WFM -- don't let this little spat keep you away.

Okay, since the vote was set up in such a corrupt way, then I guess it is still okay to visit there. But I will also let people I talk to, know that a lot of "tourists" go there because they value the culture. If they want to attract visitors, then I don't think it's a good idea to do what they just did. I think there are more concrete ways to support Gaeltacht culture than to just prop up a service economy (which is not good, long-term economic policy, by the way). Okay enough ranting. I'll go and see for myself.

"I don't think it's a good idea to do what they just did. I think there are more concrete ways to support Gaeltacht culture than to just prop up a service economy (which is not good, long-term economic policy, by the way). "

Down in Kerry and west Cork, they are symbolic of the greedy short term buck mentality that is always ready to appear in Ireland. A Gaeltacht should be a plus, one would imagine.

I recall someone from Cavan telling me about how fish stocks were allowed to be decimated in lakes in the lakelands as it suited a few people. Now guesthouses have no visitors

A Wfm, I would say to go to An Daingean because it is a nice town, and stay at Kirrary. If you do stay ther then say hello to Ilene from Riona.

The only thing to be wary of in this town is all the confounded stray dogs who run around and eat out of garbage cans and so forth. I'm skittish of dogs so I found this and the lack of leash laws rather unpleasant. Other than that you'll be set.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Okay Riona!

I'll be staying in Kirrary and I'll say hello to Ilene for ya when I go

An pobalbhreith sa Dhaingean.
Tá fimínteacht beo beathach ann

Ainm nua do Daingean, bfheidir; "Is Cuma"

"Ainm nua do Daingean, bfheidir; "Is Cuma""

Go cinnte, an bhfaca tú an nuacht i rith an deiridh seachtaine? cuireadh an cheist do mhuintir Corca Dhuibhne faoin ainm agus ní raibh aon rud le rá acu ach "is cuma liom really like ya know what I mean".

Rinne mé dearúd a rá go raibh an scéal seo ar an mBBC World Service. Is dóigh go rachfaidh an phoiblíocht seo ar mhaithe le toicí Dheangain Uí Chúis

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=1402&viewby=date

This is not actually a softening of the Minister's position - it has been his position all along, but it was ignored up to now.