Could somebody please tell me whether there's an audible difference between the following two pronunciations, and if so, what it is?

Tá an páiste ag ól (The child is drinking)

Tá an páiste ag gol (The child is crying)

I suppose the ó (with a fada) would need to be held longer than the o with no fada, but aside from that is there anything I should be hearing?

GRMH!

Here is how I pronounce them:

ag ol (drinking ) = egg ole.

ag gol ( crying ) = a gull.

Hope this helps

To avoid the confusion between drinking and crying, you could use "Tá an paiste ag caoineadh." where "caoineadh" means crying also. This is the form I learned using Buntús Cainte.

Is there not a difference between "ag caoineadh" (keening, whining) and "ag goll" (tearful crying)?

In Foclóir Scoile here are the various words for "cry:" caoin, goil; gair.

In the Irish-English section of the same dictionary, here are the definitions for caoin and goil:

caoin: keen, lament:cry, weep

goil: weep, cry(softly)

So, perhaps others more knowledgeable can provide better information, but I just remember from my Buntús Cainte days, in one of the first chapters, there's the remark about the baby: tá sí ag caoineadh. I'm not an expert on babies, but I don't think they would be old enough to keen or lament.

In Ulster at least, the only difference in pronounciation between ag ól and ag gol is the length of the vowel. No other difference. I guess it's the same in the other dialects (but in these, the "o" is more closed):

For ag ól / ag gol:

Ulster [ə ˈgˠɔːlˠ] / [ə ˈgˠɔlˠ]
Munster [ə ˈgˠoːlˠ] / [ə ˈgˠolˠ]
Connemara [ə ˈgˠoːl̪ˠ] / [ə ˈgˠol̪ˠ] (if I remember well, all broad l's are double, ie. dental in Connemara)

For the purpose of better understanding the differences between, "ag caoineadh" and "ag goll" I would like to report what I've found in Ó Dónaill's Foclóir Gaeilge-Bearla

caoin: 1. Keen, lament. 2. Cry;weep. Example 1: Leanbh ag caoineadh a child crying. Example 2: Chaoin sí uisce a cinn She cried her eyes out.

goil: weep, cry(softly). Ag gol go cráite weeping bitterly. Ag gol na ndeor, shedding tears. Ghoil sí uisce a cinn, she cried her heart out.


Well, I hope I didn't bore anyone to nausea with my extracts above, but at least now I know how to say "cry your eyes out" versus "cry your heart out" . I would be very interested in hearing from persons are familiar with what is used in Ireland for the general "crying." Is it "ag gol" or "ag caoineadh," and are there some dialectical reasons that come into play.

Not that this counts for too much, but to my American ears "keen" summons to mind a heartwrenching wail of abject despair. "Cry", on the other hand, is just that.

The difference between these two verbs is intensity, but they are plainly two different verbs.

For my part, I was seeking the Irish equivalent of "cry", generally.

There is an old Irish tradition of ritual wailing by women at funerals "keeners". They would be described as "ag caoineadh" but never as "ag gol". So I'd put it to you that the differences are contextual rather than dialectical

quote:

They would be described as "ag caoineadh" but never as "ag gol".

Which begs the answer to: Why does Buntús Cainte use "tá sí ag caoineadh" for "she [the baby] is crying?" Is this an error on Buntús Cainte's part or is the translation provided by Buntús Cainte of ag caoineadh meaning "crying" correct.?

There is no hard or fast difference. I associate "ag caoineadh" with sound, and "ag gol" with tears.

---

gol [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach den chéad díochlaonadh]
deora súl a shileadh, caoineadh os íseal.


caoineadh [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach]
gol os ard; gol os cionn an mhairbh (mná caointe); dán in ómós don mharbh, marbhna

I would be very interested in hearing from persons are familiar with what is used in Ireland for the general "crying." Is it "ag gol" or "ag caoineadh," and are there some dialectical reasons that come into play.

All that I can say, is that I only heard "caoineadh" in Ulster. (Maybe "gol" isn't common, maybe it is more literary?)

Go raibh maith agaibh a Aonghuis agus a Lughaidh as an eolas.

Motivated by Aonghus' remark about associating "ag caoineadh" with sound, I figuratively stepped back from the words for a moment to get an idea of what I was hearing and realized that caoin and "keen" sound very much alike.

So, off to www.dictionary.com (peer reviewed or not ) and found the following:

keen:

–noun 1. a wailing lament for the dead.
–verb (used without object) 2. to wail in lamentation for the dead.
–verb (used with object) 3. to bewail or lament by or with keening.

[Origin: 1805–15; < Ir caoine (n.), caoin- (v., s. of caoinim) lament]

Also at www.dictionary.com is an entry from the American Heritage dictionary that indicates "keen" is of Irish origin. So, based on the above, my initial thought that the Irish word caoin was derived from an English word "keen." may be 180 degree out of sync. That is, could the English word be derived from the Irish word caoin?

I'm uncertain as to whether the following resource is peer reviewed, but just another data point, this time from http://www.englishirishdictionary.com/.

I typed in "cry" and got the following Irish translation:

quote:

caoin, goil, bheith ag caoineadh or ag gol

Without doubt "keening" is derived from "caoineadh" not the other way around. Regarding Lughaidh's point about "gol" being uncommon and perhaps literary, that is certainly not the case. In conversational Irish in schools "Ná bí ag gol" would be a common comment by teachers both in my day and at present

Aonghus might have something in his sound/tears take on it

Regarding Lughaidh's point about "gol" being uncommon and perhaps literary, that is certainly not the case.

I just said that about my own experience of Donegal Irish. I dunno for other dialects. In Donegal, so far I've never heard "gol" from people. I've learnt that word in books and poetry only.

In conversational Irish in schools "Ná bí ag gol" would be a common comment by teachers both in my day and at present

What is used in schools doesn't mean anything: loads of teachers (and even more pupils) speak bad Irish, they may use words that don't exist in the Gaeltacht, use literary words in their everyday language, and make loads of mistakes. What is important is the language of the Gaeltacht. What is used by learners outside the Gaeltacht doesn't give any evidence of anything.

Seo fiainaise dhuit, a mhic.

---

ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Mo Dhá Róisín


go rabh sin thíos ins an roilig, ag gol ar cheann do na h-uaigheannaí, fa

sibh sgéal beag fa'n t-sean-mhnaoi atá ag gol ar an uaigh, fa'n fhear a bhfuil


ar sise ag iarraidh buaidh fhághail ar an ghol.


Bím ag osnaighil go bhrúighte 's ag cruadh-ghol go daingean



ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Caisleáin Óir

Bhí Babaí sa chlúdaigh agus an gol ag briseadh uirthi.



ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Micheál Ruadh

tach nó cainnt uasal; agus b'fhéidir an gol ag briseadh air corr-uair le tréan b



ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Cioth is Dealán

Ach goidé an mhaith díthe bheith ag gol 's ag osnaighil.




ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Scéal Úr agus Sean-Scéal

an chrioth a bhí ar a chorp go rabh sé ag gol, agus gur chosamhail é le duine a

ngantach a bhí ann, dar liom; Franncach ag gol is ag guidhe ar uaigh Gearmánaigh




ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: An Teach nár Tógadh


Shuidh sí annsin léithi féin ag gol go deachaidh an carr as a h-amharc i


ag gol
Séamus 'ac Grianna: Le Clap-Sholus
1 - 2 as 2

shuidhfeadh ar a' chladach a' gol agus ag amharc i n-a diaidh go brónach go n-i

Ní hionann sin is a ráidht go bhfuil an briathar "gol" coitianta sa chaint i dTír Chonaill. Agus níor úrt mé nach rabh sé ar fáilt ins a’ teangaidh liteartha! Níor úrt mé ach nár chuala mise féin ach "caoineadh" i nGaeltacht Thír Chonaill nuair a bhí mé ann, sin a’ méid. Is féidir go bhfuil sé ag bunadh na háite, ach nár bhain siad úsáid as nuair a bhí mé ann.

Ceist agam ort: an bhfuair tú ’n taiscidh sin téacsann ar an idirlíon? An dtig leat inse domh cá bhfuair tú sin? Tá cuma shuimiúil air!

De réir chosúlacht, fuair Aonghus na somplacha seo i dTobar na Gaeilge, mar gheall air nach bhfuil aon fhoinse eile de théascanna leictreonacha ar an nGreasán, dair liom. Léim an Díreánach sa bhfoirm leictreonach a bhain mé as an gcorpas seo. :)

Tá an cheart ag Peter.

Chuige seo a bhí mé: caint na ndaoine atá ag Máire. Ní raibh tusa chomh fada san i dTÍr Chonaill gur féidir leat bheith cinnte nach bhfuil gol sa chaint acu.

Is dóigh liom go bhfuil gol níos gaire do "weeping" an Bhéarla ná "crying".

I'm not sure I fully understand the problem, some posts even seem to suggest that the difference here is so small that it could even be better to use a different word.

The difference here is the same as in

The man lives
and
The man leaves

This thread is getting more interesting by the day! I hope I didn't give Domhnall the impressiona that in any way did I find "ag gol" incorrect, inappropriate, outdated, etc. It's just that as a student, I had only come across "ag caoineadh" so I'm very glad to learn of "ag gol" as a possible choice for what we humans do when we get emotionally upset, that is, we cry, or sob, shed tears, and sometimes keen and lament.

I did find "ag caoineadh" used in O'Siadhail's "Learning Irish. It's the only word listed for "crying" and can be found in the dictionary section in the back of the book and also in Chapter 26, in the text section title "An Clampar" (The Commotion). The story's basically about a party attended by football (soccer) players at a guy's house. Somebody get's a little to rowdy, a fight breaks out and the cops (gardai) come, but everyone calms down in time. The next morning, the guy wakes up and seeing the chaos in his room, he says it's to make one cry, using ag caoineadh. Although this is a single reference point of "ag caoineadh" being used in a Connaught sub-dialect, it does at least show it's use in that area.

I appreciate the opportunity to learn from all who have posted regarding the use of "ag gol" and "ag caoineadh," and think that Aonghus' point of "tears versus non-tears" is what may separate the two.

In regard to Jonas' posting, I'd like to first say it's good to see you posting again! I know that this discussion may be focusing on a minor point, but as a student, I'm grateful to be able to learn new words, (thanks Domhnall!) and learn the differences, albeit minor, betweeen words that I already know.

Jonas, I didn't understand your example in "the man lives" versus "the man leaves." In the former, the man is living, in the latter, the man is exiting from some place. Could you elaborate?

I thought he was referring to a similarity in the differences of pronunciations.

The man lives/leaves ... Tá sé ag ól/ag gol

at school we were always taught that
ag gol= crying
ag caoineadh = weeping, keening in despair
pronunciation wise
ag ól = eg ole
ag gol = eg gull.

Céad míle fáilte a Shaygirl, agus go raibh maith agat as an eolas!

To address Jonas' posting above, this thread has been expanded to include the discussion of what is the general word for "crying" in Irish, if there is such a general thing.

The resources I've indicate in my posting above had given me the impression that "ag caoineadh" was the general term for "crying." I got this impression since in my dictionaries, the online dictionary www.englishirishdictionary.com, Buntús Cainte, and Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish," "ag caoineadh" is either the first entry, as in the dictionaries, or the only entry for "crying."

But I'm sensing that the general term for crying is really "ag gol."

To my mind, the best thing to do when you want to know if a word is used and with which meaning, is not to look at books and see what is said in them, but to try to know what Gaeltacht people really say and how they say it. Quite often, there is a big difference between what is in the books and what Gaeltacht people say. Most books don't deal with the language of the people, but with Standard Irish. Gaeltacht people DON'T speak standard Irish.

Try to ask a Gaeltacht speaker what is the difference between gol and caoineadh.

An bhfuil tú ag rá nach cainnt na ndaoine atá ag Máire?
I gcanúint Thír Chonaill a bhí na sleachta ar fad a thug mise thuas.

Ní hionann gol agus caoineadh. Ach níl aoinne ón nGaeltacht anseo, mura bhfuil Mick Rua fós linn.

Ceist mhaith a bheadh anseo do "leagan cainte", ach faraor chuir RnaG deireadh leis sin.

Píosa spraoi ó googlefight:

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=%22ag+gol%22&word2=%22ag+c aoineadh%22

Is minice daoine ag caoineadh ná ag gol!

quote:

Try to ask a Gaeltacht speaker what is the difference between gol and caoineadh.

Unfortunately, we don't have any Gaeltachts here in New Joisey - we're working on it. But I did the next best thing; I asked the folks here at Daltai and I appreciate the responses and in particular your response Lughaidh above, about what the Gaeltacht speakers use in Ulster. I see your point about relying on books too much, but do you think Ó Siadhail's "Learning Irish," which I referenced above would qualify as to what Gaeltacht speakers say, at least in that area of Connemara?

A Aonghuis, that Google fight thing is hilarious - thanks! I laughed so hard I almost cried, or keened, or sobbed, or ...... well you know what I mean!

Chuir mé ceist ar Freagra, (agus níor fhreagair siad go baileach é!)

quote:

Is éard atá i gceist le caoineadh ná gníomh a dhéantar nuair a fhaigheann duine bás. 'Lamentation' atá i gceist. Ba thraidisiún é in Éirinn fadó go mbíodh mná caointe sa teach tórraimh nuair a fuair duine bás. Mar sin is 'lament' atá i gceist i ndáiríre le 'ag caoineadh'.

Agus is ag sileadh deor atá i gceist le bheith 'ag gol'.

Mar sin bheadh an ceart agat.
Freagra!
seirbhís ó acmhainn.ie
urraithe ag Foras na Gaeilge

A Jonas,

If you're still around, I hope you are to be sure, I just wanted to tell you that I missed you very much and I hope you'll not leave for so long again.

Beir bua agus beannacht

An bhfuil tú ag rá nach cainnt na ndaoine atá ag Máire?
I gcanúint Thír Chonaill a bhí na sleachta ar fad a thug mise thuas.

Is amhlaidh atá ’s agam sin. Ach is dóigh liom go bhfuil duifear eadar caint na ndaoiní agus a’ Ghaeilg a scríobhas Máire. Stíl liteartha atá aige. Níl mé cinnte go mbeadh a leaganacha cainte agus a fhoclaí coitianta ins a’ ghnáthchaint, go háiríd ins a’ lá inniu.

quote:

Stíl liteartha atá aige

A mhalairt de chlú atá air in Éirinn.

Is cinnte go bhfuil roinnt des na leaganacha cainte imithe ó shin. Ba bhreá liom an cheist a chuir faoi bhráid muintir na gaeltachta. Bheinn sách cinnte go bhfuil "ag gol" acu go léir, cé go bhfuil tuairim agam go bhfuil sé níos coitianta thiar agus ó dheas ná ó thuaidh.

Is mór an trua go bhfuil deireadh le "Leagan Cainte"; bheadh an fhreagra acu san.

Tá "ag gol" cloiste agam ó chainteoir dúchais Chonamara. Níor thuig mé uaithi gur focal liteartha a bheadh ann ar chor ar bith. Ag caint faoi ghasúir (.i. leanaí) a bhí muid.

Níl a fhios agam cén dealú a dhéanfadh sí idir "ag gol" agus "ag caoineadh." Caithfidh mé an cheist a cur uirthi, agus muid ag caint arís...

Abigail

ag gol = egg gull agus ag ól = egg ohl pronounce the -OHL as Geman name KOHL,
ag gol is used when someone is crying silently as in bereavement or some personal crisis but caoineadh is used when a person cries loudly / loud enough for people closeby to hear

GRMA a Mhick Rua.

Bhíos ag seoladh focal.ie aréir agus labhair mé le Peadar Ó Flatharha agus Caoilfhionn Nic Phaidín faoin gceist seo.

Bhíodar araon den tuairim nach bhfuil "ag gol" sa chaint thiar ná ó thuaidh, ach fairsing ó dheas.

A mhalairt de chlú atá air in Éirinn.

Char chuala mise Gaeilg mar sin ó bhéal a’ phobail nuair a bhí mé ann, ach amháin ó bhéal na seanchaithe. Gaeilg speisialta atá acu sin. Tá duifear eadar caint na ndaoiní óga agus cionn na seanchaithe.

Tá an cheart agat, dar ndóigh.

Ach éiríonn daoine óga sean!

Agusín: Labhair mé le Pól Breatnach freisin, a chaitheann treimhsí fada ar Inis Óirr; níor chuala sé "ag gol" ag na daoine ansin ach oiread.

Dúirt Peadar go raibh "ag gol" le clos in amhráin; ach bhí sé den tuairim gur ón Mumhan na hamhráin céanna.