Hello,

I have been visiting this site for a while now, reading the various threads and I thought I might share a glimmer of hope...

Recently, I saw an infomercial on late night television about the Rosetta Stone Language Programs and how they recently created a Mohawk program to help stop the death of the language. And instantly I started to think about how something like this could really help Irish. So, I sent an email to Rosetta Stone asking them if they had ever considered creating an Irish language program. After all, they use the same core program for all of their languages. The only thing that changes are the fonts and native speakers. So it couldn't be that hard to create a program for Irish because 3/4 of the work is already done for us...

The response I got was really uplifting:

"...Unfortunately, we don't have an Irish Gaeilge Rosetta Stone product available. However, judging by the number of requests we've had just in the last few months, it should be at the top of our list! It is definitely a
project that might be of interest to us, especially if there were to be an organization or group willing to provide language expertise and assist with development costs.

If you know of an organization which would be interested in such a project, please let us know. We would love to hear from them! If I can send you or others more information about our Endangered Language Program, please let me know..."

Now I ask the people here...can we help? I know there are people here with the knowledge to assist, and more the enough passion to try.

I have to be honest, the part of the letter I left out were the answers to my questions about the reasons why a Welsh program was created and not an Irish program. The company is a private one, and they have policies as well as a strong wanting to avoid politics. And sadly, Irish just has too many "issues" with it. They could not create an all inclusive "Irish program" without starting dangerous fires like they can with the other languages being offered. However, with their Endangered Language Program, they could create specific dialect based products and avoid the politics!

In fact, in the letter the lady said that they have been toying with the idea of a Connemara program because they have noticed that this is the Irish dialect they are getting the most requests for.

I would like to know what the people here think? Or more important, are the more senior and fluent speakers here interested in this idea? Here's the thing, the lady said that they only need a few speakers usually four or six people. The only requirement is that they be versed in the dialect being presented, that there be as many male speakers as women, and that the speakers have the ability to clearly speak for recording purposes...

This is a very interesting time, I have read so many threads here about ways of pitching in and making changes...maybe this is our chance to really do our part for the language???

Thank you for writing in to them. I have checked the rosetta stone site every month for the last two years, hoping to see Irish added (and wondering about the welsh as well), but never took the initiative to write.

She asks for organizations, have you ever thought of putting them in touch with Daltaí...while DnaG would probably not participate directly they would be a great resource for getting them in touch with native speakers of whatever dialect.

At the risk of giving offence to many I'll give my honest opinion: use the Official Grammar and Spelling for the words and grammar structures and choose speakers from each dialect for the recordings. In that way the product will be saleable to the youngsters learning the language at school in Ireland. They have to cope with the sounds of each dialect but they have to write in the Caighdeán unless they know one or other or all of the dialects -- if a phrase or structure is correct in any dialect it is acceptable for examination purposes in both written and oral Irish. There are no wrong phrases if they are correct in some dialect or other. But students at Leaving Cert in Ireland -- thousands of them every year -- have to pass an aural comprehension test and all the main dialects are represented. This is a perennial "deilín" and probably not worth discussing again. For a product that is to be sold I suggest it should appeal to the mass of students who have to be aware of each dialect and be able to understand them all. They only need to speak one of course. The differences are not so great as to create much of a problem.

if it were something being done by or for the government I'd agree, but from what I've seen of the other stuff done by this company, selecting a dialect and running with it (like Pimsleur) is probably what they'll do if they do anything at all.

I'm a big big supporter of the use of a standard for students, and as such I'd like to see that as well, but I have also seen this software used for french and spanish (and english in esl classes) with monumental success. If the price for having rosetta stone software in irish is that a dialect must be used then so be it...for it's far better to have that than nothing at all.

getting it done at all is no small victory - i don't know that we'll get more of a say in it than that.

In response to the answer to Gavin's e-mail to the company:

No one I know of considers Irish itself to be a political issue. I suppose some might, but it seems like most wouldn't unless they are intimately connected in some way with the alluded to situation, even that not necessarily guarenteeing such atribution.

Correct me if I'm wrong le do thoil. Could someone please tell me how to pluralize "do", GRMA.

Beir bua agus beannacht

más é bhur dtoil é - please (literally: if it is your (pl) will)

can you also say "le bhur dtoil?"

As for it being political, when I originally signed up for AOL, I wanted the screenname Saoirse. I was told I couldn't have it, because it was on a list of screennames prohibited by the british gov't (i assume as a term of aol doing business in the uk). In addition, they either had or were pushing for a ban on Irish being used in aol chatrooms because they claimed the language was a "terrorist code" used to "plot violence" that few if any of those monitoring the chatrooms could read. They either had or wanted penalties for using it like police investigation and termination of service from aol. This was in the late 90s (97 or 98 if I remember correctly...I didn't have internet at all before then), well after the Good Friday Accords.

quote:

can you also say "le bhur dtoil?"

Is féidir.

Sorry for taking so long to respond...it was a holiday weekend.

I wanted to give Daltaí and a few others as a point of contact, however, I wanted to ask permission first. I would hate to include anyone who does not want to participate. Also, I am not sure who the people are here I would need to contact here for help?

Taidhgín, I do not think anyone takes offense, however, what you suggested seems to be the very problem they are having. They have a policy that makes it so that they produce products that will reflect the majority of the language being spoken. They prefer to use the "most used" dialects found in modern media such a television and radio. Since there is such a gap between the official standard and the dialects being used...they have not made any Irish products because they do not want to create any problems or confusion among new learners who would be the ones buying the product. With the endangered language program, they can make dialect based products and avoid the troubles.

From what I saw in the letter she wrote me, Rosetta Stone is seeing the Connemara dialects being used more the in media right now. Now we all now that is not exactly true, but if you look at Radio Gaeltacht, TG4, and some of the news media...what do you see the most...Galway. And I think they are guessing that means the Irish spoken in Galway is more dominate than the others right now. We could debate this all night long...but in the end I think we need to go with it while we can. It may not be perfect, but it is a start in the right direction.

But I am still wondering who here is interested? I have the contact information for the lady in charge and is interested in making the program. I am not fluent enough to contribute much help...but I would gladly be the person who does the introductions.

I think choosing one dialect over another may actually do more harm than good, since it would be at best slighting the other main dialects and at worst an outright insult to them. A better approach would be the one used by "Turas Teanga" where all three major dialects are included quite seamlessly. As Taidhgin has indicated above, the differences are not so great as to create much of a problem.

Well one can use 'ye' for bhur, "will ye stop?" -it avoides the need for you(pl), which is clunky

It's also a pity that no one is interested in the Connacht dialect; only Conemara, Donegal, and Munster

Cúcúc...

Please do not think anyone is proposing one dialect over another...that is not the case. What is being proposed is a dialect based program for Irish. And because it is dialect based program, it will tailor itself to that dialect.

The reason why Connemara Irish is being suggested is due to its popularity in the media and learning resources such as Buntús Cainte which is one of the most well known products on the market.

In theory, I would like to see the standard with its proposed pronunciations be used. I think there is great potential for a central dialect, but right now that is just not the case...due to the general rejection of the standard by people, who knows what the future holds..."we can't live in tomorrow, only in today."

To really make this work, we would need to make a program for each major dialect (Ulster, Munster, and Connacht). However, we have to start somewhere, and they are willing to discuss the possibility for Connemara Irish.

If there is no one here who is willing to participate that is OK...maybe we can network a little. Does anyone here know specific organizations who might like to help? I would need a point of contact to get a hold of...

I'll be happy to see Rosetta Stone do any dialect they want to, full stop. The result can only be to the good of the language.

I think the reason you haven't had any volunteers may simply be that native Connemara speakers are a bit thin on the ground here. It seems to me as though we've got quite a few Connemara learners at various stages (myself included), but not too many people whose speech you'd want to record as a model.

I'm studying under a native speaker, so I'll mention the idea to her later this week and report back if she shows interest. (She's teaching full-time already though, so she might be too busy unless it were to be a summer project.)

Abigail

quote:

The reason why Connemara Irish is being suggested is due to its popularity in the media and learning resources such as Buntús Cainte which is one of the most well known products on the market.

Actually, Buntus Cainte uses "standard" Irish not Connemara dialect.

I like Cúcúc (formerly Mac Léinn na Gaeilge) and Tadhgín's idea about incorporating all three dialects - it is by far the fairest and best solution and is obviously do-able; I, for one, hope that they consider writing to "Rosetta Stone" with their suggestion.

quote:

It is definitely a project that might be of interest to us, especially if there were to be an organization or group willing to provide language expertise and assist with development costs.

When I first read the quote above that Gavin provided above, I thought how clever that a for-profit company ask for financial support to develop one of their products. But then I decided to go to their website and find out a little bit more about this company. I was pleasantly surprised to read the following from their Endangered Language Program:

quote:

The final product is owned by you. Distribute it as you wish: in schools, in homes, or online. Sell through the Rosetta Stone web site with royalties, sell at cost locally, or distribute it free to your community. You are creating a permanent asset for your community.

What a nice concept! If I understand correctly, this company is willing to help develop the software and then allow the endangered-language group to make the profit from the software.

Although my main learning focus is the Connaught dialect, I would feel inclined to support the other dialects equally. So, if what Abigail writes above is correct about the scarcity of Connemara speakers, and that we need to start somewhere, perhaps our chances are better with finding Ulster or Munster speakers and start with one of those dialects instead. Maybe we should introduce the folks at Rosetta Stone to the various Belfast and other Ulster-based language resources and they might think about supporting that dialect instead.

So, I suppose if we had to choose one dialect rather than having nothing at all, then so be it. But if Daltaí were to consider this idea, I think the income to Daltaí generated by developing this software and then being able to sell it would help Daltaí further promote the Irish language.

It's not that they're scarce in general! There's no great shortage of them in, say, Leitir Mealláin or Ros a' Mhíl. :-) It's only that I haven't seen too many around here specifically.

(I'm a bit of a newcomer, though, so maybe they're here and I've just missed them.)

I'd like to present another angle in regards to which dialect should be chosen with Rosetta Stone. When I hear or read the phrase "Endangered Language" I can't help but think of the similar phrase "Endangered Species." So I'd like to make the following analogy between species and language:

Say there were three endangered species that needed support to prevent their extinction, but you only had funds/resources to spend/focus on one of them. Let's say for example you have 1000 spotted owls, 500 humpback whales, and only 10 manatees left on the face of the earth. Which species should you spend your resources on? I think the answer would be the one that is most endangered. In that case the choice would be the manatees. Perhaps the same logic, if true, should apply to the Irish language. Since it appears, at least to Rosetta Stone and others that the Connemara dialect is the most popular, based on requests from inquiries and their perception of media presence, the Connemara dialect may be the last one of the dialects to be considered. Which then leaves the choice between the Ulster and Munster dialects.

Again, I would prefer to see all dialects supported equally, but if we need to choose one, perhaps it should be the one that is most endangered.

Cúcúc...

I think you misunderstand what the pourpose of the Endangered Language Program is...it was originally created to help LCTL (Less Commonly Taught Languages), and most importantly, endangered languages. So, I understand your thinking...however the program is designed for them to get around the policy which limit them to only producing products which will only sell where there is a higher demand such as the major languages...you have to remember that they are a business trying to make money. While they do want to help, they also have to help themselves.

Yes the title says "Endangered Languages," but it is just the name for the program, not a form of logic.

If there is one group of people who could really profit from this idea, it would be the Ulster speakers...this program with the aggressive push to bring Irish back to the North could be the spark they have been needing. One of the primary areas catered to by Rosetta Stone projects are the school systems. Imagine what could happen if an Irish program such as this was used in every school???

But again, you have to remember that is a long shot...if they make a program it is going to be a dialect choice. And right now it will most likely be Connemara Irish, what we need is to start something...

Maybe they should choose out the dialect that is most lacking in learning materials, that way people who want to learn that dialect would come to them with less potential competition. Also they'd be helping the dialect to gain more speakers, of course, and covering an area previously lacking in avariety of resources.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I don't remember any offense being taken at Pimsleur using Munster dialect.

We can't expect companies to make materials three times over when Irish is such a marginal market to begin with. Likewise, mixing all three into everything can be very confusing for a learner. Yes, Turas Teanga does it, but Turas Teanga is not geared for absolute beginners.

When you get something to teach english in the US, it uses Standard American English (in Europe it would use the British counterpart), almost all French learning materials I've seen over here use the Parisian dialect exclusively. There's nothing wrong with either selecting an academic standard (expecially for absolute beginners) like Buntús or teaching students the largest or most spoken dialect.

Sorry for the rant, but this dialect vs dialect stuff drives me clear up a wall. Whichever dialect they choose, they will be producing some fantastic learning materials for Gaeilge! Which is, after all, the whole point.

Please don't forget that the existence of three dialects is somewhat artificial in that it required the near-death of the language and extreme isolation of several pockets from each other. As the language grows and becomes less isolated I'm not sure if *trying* to preserve the separate dialects should be a goal. My feeling is, teach a standard, and if the dialects maintain themselves, wonderful. If they begin to mesh together with each taking on characteristics of the other or the standard, also wonderful. As long as they remain mutually intelligible it shouldn't matter. These things ebb and flow over the centuries as part of the natural changes undergone by a living lanugage.

Antaine, well said...

Actually I am suprized at what I am seeing here. The responses given, and the lack of responses given by the numbers I knew are here and visit here on a regurlar basis...almost suggest a negative opinion of such a venture.

If this is the case...then the Irish language is doomed.

How can it survive if we the supporters of the language, aren't willing to try and help even if it goes against our personal wantings for the language?

To quote John Adams..."will we allow it to be whipped and beaten it until its very spirit is broken?"

quote:

If this is the case...then the Irish language is doomed.

It's only been an obvious fact for a few centuries that the Irish language needs to be revived in Ireland. If Rosetta Stone had any altruistic concerns towards the Irish Language, they would have chipped in and helped a long time ago. I think you said it best in your correction of mine initial impression - "While they do want to help, they also have to help themselves."

On the other hand, Daltaí and its many volunteers have done a great service to supporting the Irish language. It's also a non-profit organization, so I have some trouble understanding how this non-profit organization is supposed to supply financial support to a for-profit organization whose goal is to make money for themselves. Don't misunderstand what I'm saying; I'm all in favor of the free enterprise system here in the States.

The Irish language will succeed with or without the "help" of Rosetta Stone. The Irish language will succeed because of folks like Daltaí, the Irish government and it's people and others who are willing to support the language without having to profit themselves.

Cúcúc, I can't agree with you on this...

True the decline of Irish has been happening for centuries, however, never in all that time have we had the resources and ability to revive the language than we do right now. And frankly, the world is saying in action what they deny in words...maybe Irish is too far gone.

The problem is that Irish isn't succeeding...at best it is holding its own. Folks like Daltaí are failing because they are fighting a losing battle. And while this may be noble in an "Irish sense," it is not very helpful.

I never asked, nor was it being asked for financial support. What we could contribute is the one thing they need the most, people who can speak the language and are willing to share their knowledge...but I couldn't even get a single person here to say "Hey that's a good idea, I might be interested." And that has been the very flaw of this site...people talk about what needs to be done, but so few are doing anything about it. I am guilty of this also...that's why when I saw a glimmer of being able to do something, I at least tried.

Anyone that studies the death of a language knows there is a certain point of no return...Irish is bordering on that point. Those who are trying to keep it alive are thinning in number. If you expect a government to help...then you misunderstand the purpose of a government. Their job is to look after the well being of their state...so what would you do if you were them? Cater to the whims of thousands, when they have to deal with the whims of millions? There is very little they can do to help...

If you think that the schools are going to be the answer then let me ask you this? Why haven't they done it yet? They have more than enough time to positively introduce the language into society, and yet they fail why? Because they treat Irish like they do a chemistry class. You have to take it, so get it over and be done with it.

And groups like Daltaí...they can't because they don't.

If what I say offends you, it was supposed to.

Do not get me wrong, I have nothing but good things to say about Daltai and those few small groups who have taken it upon themselves to try and fight. But they are not an army...

Now I know I am preaching...and I may very well be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last time. But I honestly believe that "those with the ability to take action when needed, have the responsibility to take action when needed." If we don't, then we have no one but ourselves to blame.

quote:

If what I say offends you, it was supposed to.

Gavin,

Nothing you have written has offended me. It's tempting to suggest that you try harder to offend me, but that would be encouraging you to break one of this forum's rules that relates to keeping postings polite.

quote:

Folks like Daltaí are failing because they are fighting a losing battle.

Really? Do you have any data or other evidence that supports this claim?

quote:

I never asked, nor was it being asked for financial support.

I got the notion of financial support from your initial posting above where you indicate that a Rosetta Stone representative said "It is definitely a
project that might be of interest to us, especially if there were to be an organization or group willing to provide language expertise and assist with development costs."

quote:

If you expect a government to help...then you misunderstand the purpose of a government.

Although I'm not that smart, I've been successfully employed in the engineering field in large part due to the excellent public schooling that I have received from kindergarten to the Ph.D candidate level. All of my education has been due to this government's role in providing such a fine educational system, so I think that the government has been a big help in providing me with an excellent education. In regards to your remark about chemistry, I learned alot from my chemistry class, some of which I apply on a weekly basis.

quote:

If you think that the schools are going to be the answer then let me ask you this? Why haven't they done it yet? They have more than enough time to positively introduce the language into society, and yet they fail why?

Again, I'd like to ask you if you have any data or information to support your claim that the Irish schools have failed. I would speculate the exact opposite, considering the rise of the gaelscoileanna, the increasing presence of Irish radio and TV, and all of the internet resources available to us now.

Gavin, a chara:

My suggestion would be to send along the Rosetta Stone reply you received
to NUI Galway. They certainly would be able to do the job, or could refer the letter along to the right parties.

Ádh mór,
Paul

Gavin, a chara:

Here's their website address:
http://www.nuigalway.ie/gaeilge/arasnagaeilge/

Beir bua,
Paul

Cúcúc

I did not want to sound like I was targeting you...I know that I can be a little over passionate about this, and I often let those passions get the best of me. I did not want to offend anyone, but rather make a point.

My claims are based on my oberservations...so I will admit that I could be wrong.

My ovbservations are based on the numbers, and the general answers that I get when I speak with people in Ireland about Irish.

Not the most scientific I know, but effective. Take any logic class and the first thing they tell you is that an arguement exists only on the condition that the premis are true. And if a person gives your "their" personal answer, then the support must be given the value of truth on the grounds that a person cannot falsify their own personal opinion. This is as true today, as it was in ancient Greece...

But the majority of my claims are based on the official census numbers....there was a post not too long ago about this concerning the census. Where someone noticed that the questions being given were not very good because they left a large room for error.

If you look at the census right now...you can clearly see that the numbers for people who can speak Irish, as well as the numbers for the people who can not speak Irish...are rising. This of course is due to the rise in the populaiton of Ireland. However, if you look at the numbers, the numbers for those who can not speak Irish are increasing faster than those who can.

And that is a failure. Especially if more and more Irish is being pumped out of the school system.

Which by the way, I was not saying that the schools themselves were failures. I was saying that the assumption that more people will start speaking Irish because they had it in school is failing us...and why do I say this? Because more and more students are taking Irish in schools, yet the numbers of those who can not speak Irish is rising...when it should be going down. This is a failure in my opinion.

Gavin,
may I suggest that you get the Rosetta course for another language and make up an irish version yourself.

From what I can see, the series is similar for all languages. There is no proof of its ability to teach any language effectivly -I just say this so that you dont get too mad on the basis that the system would do wonders, if only it was applied. If you make it up, it can then be tested.

If anyone has a copy, if you can detail how it works, it can be compared to other teaching methods

Bearnaigh,

From what I recall from seeing it when I was teaching, it seemed to be a cross between pimsleur and byki, with a visual context component (where pimsleur has just an audio context). I don't know if Gavin's gotten to play with one of them more than I have and might have a better description.

Different methods work differently for different people, but it really, *really* seemed to help the kids who were using it in both their second language classes as well as those in esl classes (english as a second language). The esl kids did have the benefit of having near-immersion in the language as well (everywhere but home), but the kids taking french, spanish and italian did not.

Antaine,
I agree that different methods and different strokes at needed; I just suggested that a) if it is a system that is applied to different languages, if must be modular. There fore any langugae could be used if one chnages the content; b) a trial run might be needed -a mock-up, if you will, before any natives and the company Rosetta are involved.

Anyone recall back to school projects? Mock-ups always lead to better results as you can iron out the flaws. I'm not discounting the idea, but my personal experience leads me to be clear on the need for developmental feedback. After all, if its worth it, it will take time.

Gavin,
I was making suggetions. Maybe you would enjoy making the course yourself. In a dispersed setting such as the net, people will not always respond to such a suggetsion, as their work will get added into the mix, while they dont know who the people are, while at the same time, someone (Rosetta) is making money off their backs. That is why I *suggested* perhaps making it open-source so that others can then add into it.

If media-wiki software is used, then everyone can chip in, and the mistakes can be evened out over time.

Gavin, there's an organisation based in Nenagh, Co. Tipperary, funded through the VEC, which has its primary aim the promotion of Gaeilge in everday life (commercial/school/church) in North Tipperary. They also write and edit school books. I think if you were to contact them that they may be very interested in assisting Rosetta in whatever way they can, though their expertise would lie primarily in the Munster dialect.

Maith thu as an obair maith,

Daithi

Daithí Mac...

I will gladly add them to the list. In truth...right now I would be happy for any group, or dialect for that matter, to show interest.

I have been contacting various groups from across the world (Oideas Gael, NUI, House of Ireland in San Diego, Irish Language Assoc. of Australia...) and getting feedback from them. Unfortunately, I am getting the same reception from them that I received here.

Most of the people want to see something done, but not in a single dialect...another interesting theme in the feedback I have been getting is that the groups do not want get involved with Rosetta Stone. While they may phrase it differently, a serious concern I have noticed is that people feel that because Rosetta Stone is a commercial business, they are only in it for the money and don't care about the language.

My answer: Yes they are a company, yes they want to make money...but they are not evil. If it is bad for Rosetta Stone to use the Irish language for money and attention, then groups like Oideas Gael, Áras Mháirtín, and Gael Linn must also be considered wrong because they are also using the Irish language for money and attention. They aren't doing it out of the kindness of their hearts...it's business and they charge you for it. Now you do get a little more cultural experiences out of these courses, however, it isn't the Irish culture that's in danger...it's the language. And that is exactly what we need to concentrate on.

Their program does not allow for the switching between the dialects. The only way to get around that would be to create a seperate program for each dialect, or use the standard spelling with the proposed pronunciation for the standard. But I did not want to go that direction, because most people tend to like dialect differences. "Adds Flavor" was one of the comments I saw here.

Now to answer the questions posted earlier, yes they use the same standard format for every language. Why? Because research has shown that it works. That is why it is being used by governments, educational institutions, and homes around the world. Some can say that the "standard" format isn't a good idea for Irish because it doesn't show the spirit of Irish...to that I say if it works for every other language, why can't it work for Irish? Is Irish really that special?

I will give you the same story you can find on their website about the program...but basically they follow the immersion method of learning a language. "Total Immersion® instruction through the Berlitz Method®, a conversational approach conducted entirely in the target language" as it says on their site...

I would like to make a program for Irish...and feel that it is very crucial for Irish to start making its mark on our computer driven society. But I am not a computer person, nor would I even know how to start such a venture.

I just saw that there is a place out there that offers a computer program to help preserve endangered languages, and I thought that a language like Irish, which has the potential to take advantage of it might want to. I saw that the Welsh did it, and it seems to be working for them, so why couldn't it work for Irish?

But I guess I was wrong, the general feeling I am getting from the responses is that Irish isn't ready for something like this...or that people aren't willing or wanting to try.

"the Berlitz Method"

ahmm; that's over 100 years old. I don't see anything special there and I'm confused as to how one programme can turn around the number of speakers.

There was a confluence of factors leading to the drop in Irish speakers, why you think you can turn that about has not been made clear.

As for telling the people they are lazy; last week I spent two nights in the north of Ireland, and in one afternoon spent 50 euro on photcopying old dialect studies, all on the recomendation of Lughaidh of a particular library. I'm willing to put my money where by mouth is.

That is why I say "make it yourself" and dont boss people about. I know you are enthusiastic, but you dont even offer a mechanism for people to add to your plan. As I said, how can people contribute? Maybe an easy route is to do it Wiki-style. Why? This is the net. The question, as I see it, is how to allow people to add to the project without otherwise providing a channel for contribution?

Be positive and try to carry people along by contributing. Plant the seed first yourself. I'd like to see the idea suceed, but I think that nobody is going to contribute unless it is transparent and distributed/federal in structure. Rosetta can make money by risking it on the open market, but those that make it need some way to contribute that is tangible and does not manipulate them.

Bearnaigh...slow down a sec.

I never called anyone lazy. What I said is that there are a lot of people out here who are alwasys talking about ways of improving things but never do. When I mentioned an idea, just as a possibility...I got either a negative response or none at all. I think it odd when groups of people who are vocal about taking action suddenly get silent when the possibilty of action occurs.

Also, never did I say this was a cure to any problem. As I said before, this is a possibility, and it has helped others. If it didn't work, no one would use it or promote it.

With the exception of Turas Teanga on standard DVD...name one Irish learning material out there that really exploits the uses of modern technology? There aren't any, does that make sense?

Let me ask you Bearnaigh, all that research you did, the library, photocopies, the old dialect studies...how did all that work help the language? Granted you gained knowledge about how it was...but what did your research tell you about how it is???

More important...what did your research tell you we should do to help the language???

You can't move forward, if you are looking backwards.

Gavin, I'm just coming into this conversation. I looked at the Rosetta Stone website. It looked really cool and I saw it as a product - granted made to order- that is like a computer game that teaches a language. But I didn't see how much the price is. Also I'm unclear on what the above argument is for. What action are you proposing from other members of daltaí? I think that the fact that it is commercial is fine. But you have to recognize that it is a product and therefore the person/people who buy it get what they want in terms of dialect etc. or whether to do it at all. So we really don't need to agree. I'm all for new products and software but in the end the way to learn a language is to study and to travel to where the language is spoken. If Rosetta Stone was in Gaelic, I'd probably own it now but meanwhile with Skype and the internet, native-speakers are available already so I don't feel passionate about it.

With the exception of Turas Teanga on standard DVD...name one Irish learning material out there that really exploits the uses of modern technology? There aren't any, does that make sense?

If you have to ask that, you haven't done much homework.

Ten or so years ago I contributed to Irish language software products by Liberation Philology and Transparent Language. The former is still available and the latter is still in production, the last I heard. There is also a Eurotalk programme for Irish, and another called First Steps in Irish (no relation to the book of the same name). Fluirse has just released two programmes aimed at younger learners. Gavin, these are just a few off the top of my head. If I wanted to do some Googling, I'd find several more which I'm misremembering at the moment.

Turas Teanga is wonderful, but isn't intended for beginners. It was preceded, however, by 30 programmes of "Now You're Talking" (available on videotape), which also had available a textbook & cassette tapes, and that course WAS intended for beginners.

Again, all of this in the past ten years, all off the top of my head, with, I am sure, a number of omissions which others will be only too happy to remedy.

As Bearnaigh suggested, if you're passionate about Rosetta Stone, get something going and then ask for specific help. Vague entreaties about the project will get few (if any) volunteers.

But in conclusion, please stop implying that we haven't already been doing the kinds of things you're championing. Having given many hours to such projects, I take exception to your assumption that people here are indifferent. Since you're a newbie, you might be forgiven for not knowing about the several projects in the past few years which were conceived here AND executed -- all by Daltaí Board members, including audio recordings, text materials, and even a full transcript of the Pimsleur course.

Before you start pointing fingers, do some homework.

Gavin, I think you may be overlooking one factor in the response here. Many of us -- myself included -- simply realize that we aren't able for the kind of help that would be needed.

I've been studying Irish for nearly two years now. I'm able to speak and be well understood, and what I'm speaking is recognizably a Connemara dialect, but I certainly don't sound like a native Connemara speaker just yet. So for me, this isn't a question of enthusiasm or commitment or money-where-my-mouth-is, but rather of whether it's even ethical to inflict my pronunciation on hapless fellow-learners!

So maybe if we're still kicking the idea around 5 years from now, I'll be able to help...
In the meantime, I still consider myself well qualified to hold opinions and carry on arguments, of course. Fluency has nothing at all to do with that.

Abigail

"Bearnaigh...slow down a sec"

I wasn't shouting!


"With the exception of Turas Teanga on standard DVD"

Where is it available? (I'd like to buy it). RTE wont sell it; its not in shops...


"name one Irish learning material out there that really exploits the uses of modern technology?"

Well as a minority language, it is no surprise that there are less examples. While I agree, perhaps Irish was slow to embrace CDs and DVDs, but all one can do is now use modern technology, and I suggested one.

"all that research you did, the library, photocopies, the old dialect studies...how did all that work help the language"


None. How could it? My remark there was to point out I was not lazy; I have no saviour complexes (I hope). Your plan also will help no one unless it is used. I see it like a chain -as well as creating a product, it has to be delivered to the user, used (most language courses are soon forgotten about), those people must then use it, they must use it in numbers to increase speakers, then must marry other speakers and settle down in irish speaking communities and have kids...

That is impact. You have set yourself a hard task where you cant control how people will react to he project. It seems effect is been mixed up with cause -language courses are popular in Wales as a) they are interested in speaking Welsh, b) legal and social constraints force some that would not have otherwise learnt it to do so.

That's all I ahve to say on the topic. All the best.

Scríobh Bearnaigh:
Where is it available? (I'd like to buy it). RTE wont sell it; its not in shops.

I bought mine from RTÉ, a Bhearnaigh -- I'm not sure where you got the notion it wasn't available from them, as they promoted it heavily when it was first released. It's also available from most record shops; see the following quote from RTÉ:

The DVD set is available in stores nationwide, including HMV, Golden Discs, Tower Records, Virgin and Easons.

For those outside of Ireland, you can also now get it from Litríocht.com and Oideas Gael.

i got my from litriocht.com

Here's the link to RTÉ's shop where you can buy Turas Teanga:
http://www.buy4now.ie/rte/productdetail.aspx?pid=936&loc=P&catid=7.6

I would be quite excited if Rosetta Stone brought out a programme for Irish. I used it for learning Danish and it was quite effictive. Its a total immersion style of learning and dosen't use much english, it was also the most user friendly language software I ever used and I went through a few. It would be the ultimate and easiest aid for the self learners of irish I believe.

Just got TT in the post. Initial reactions are:

the music at the beginning is a little corny

No Irish subtitles, why? Why not have both?

Since I ahve to cut out the learner speech, 45 euro for only natives (something seen on TG4) seems a little steep; at least the subtitles can go on or off

Still, it can be fired up as needs be, and has 3 dialects. Unfortunatly, I dont see any real Connacht dialect, only Conemara

Agus cá bhfuil Conamara, muna bhfuil sé i gConnachta?

http://www.udaras.ie/Images/gaillimhA.jpg


(Message edited by aonghus on September 15, 2006)

(Message edited by aonghus on September 15, 2006)

quote:

I dont see any real Connacht dialect, only Conemara

What are they, then?

(Message edited by Peter on September 16, 2006)

Here's some information on the Connaught dialect from Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connacht_Irish


N.B. As in any encyclopedia, peer-reviewed or not, the information can be prone to errors. I just thought I'd share the article and ask for help in locating errors, if any.

I was speaking about the old dialect of Connacht, as left in Mayo, and how it varied with respect to modern Conemara, not that there was a complete break

The fact is that if a company makes a product, they usually want to make a profit, unless otherwise specified. I don't really have any problems with this, it is life after all in a world whare we go to work and have to bring home a paycheck. Just so long as the product is quality and a decent buy.

Above was mentioned the fact that many people don't respond to general inquiry with willingness to help because such inquiries are vague and unspecific. If it was for sure that the company was making the product and they needed specific help in designated areas, then people and/or organizations would probably be more willing to give asistance.

Lots of people around here are very busy and don't have time to commit to large scale venture such as is mentioned, translations here for all of us are the most they can fit into already busy schedules.

Abigail is quite right in that many of us are not at a point whare we would be of much help in a situation like this.

In short Gavin a chara, There are probably a number of reasons why you aren't getting the responses you are looking for. We are all listening and I'd assume that most of us would support such a venture as a new language program.

Beir bua agus beannacht