A couple days ago I read through the official National Plan for Welsh, which if I understand correctly has been published yearly since the Official Languages Act. I also am currently reading through the draft National Plan for Gaelic, just released this past week, which sets out very detailedly and specifically goals which are to be accomplished before approaching deadlines. It struck me that I've never read something like this for Irish ... does it exist? If no, why not?

My impression was that the state of Irish is not nearly as perilous as that of Gaelic's. But it seemed that documents like these present a very realistic gauge for how your language is doing, just by determing whether or not you are fulfilling the goals laid out in the Plan.

Some topics addressed in the Gaelic Plan have prompted me to ask, is the government dealing with Gaeltacht areas in Irish, whether they ask it or not? What kind of government business is conducted in Irish? For example, do the local Gardaí on Árainn Mhór speak Irish and deal with the people through Irish? There's all this talking on saving our dear Irish language, but it seems like so many areas are just completely being ignored, and it seems like a joke. Can anyone shed some light on this?

P.S. Aindréas doesn't speak Irish, sorry.

There is the Foras na Gaeilge--which came out of the Good Friday Agreement:

http://www.gaeilge.ie/foras/default.asp?catid=13

But the Irish government abolished the Linguistic Institute of Ireland a couple years ago and that does not seem like a very smart move if you want up-to- date reearch data on the state of Irish.

Who knows? Maybe the Foras and the ITE were stepping on each others toes and the ITE lost the fight for funds.

But Ireland does not need a National Plan--it has the Leaving Cert! :-)

In Gareth King's 1993 editon of his grammar, "Modern Welsh", he gives a brief take on the state of the Celtic languages and it runs like this:

"All the living Celtic languages today face an uncertain future. Irish is probably beyond help simply because of the small number of speakers (not more than 30,000); the situation of Breton is parlous despite its having the the largest number of speakers (twice as many as Welsh), because of the hostility from cental government and the fact that the linguistic community are predominantly of the older generation. Welsh and Scots Gaelic are in a somewhat better position in that they can still be claim to be the everyday language of particular and well-defined communities."

Modern Welsh, pp. 1-2.

Perhaps this is too gloomy for Irish. I would love to hear disageement about that. Does everyone agree with that figure for Irish speakers? There is a second edition of his grammar out and I have not checked it to see if he has revised his prognosis. (I hate it when they do that, now I am going to have to buy the same book again, but it does look improved) Strangely in his lingustic summary on the Celtic languages he does not directly give the figure for the speakers of Welsh in 1993, but he does give the figure for speakers of Breton--around a million.

I don't know the exact figure but I don't think the number of Scottish Gaelc speakers is too much more than 30,000. But I suppose he is banking on "insularity". All I can find on the book shelf right now is "one and a half percent of Scotland's population" in Roibeard O Maolalaigh very good introductory book on Gaelic, "Scottish Gaelic in Three Months". Indirection must rule among linguists.

I think a '91 (or thereabouts) census in Scotland gave the figure around 58,000. Down 10,000 from 10 years prior. And this was not people using the language daily, only those who claimed to speak it.

King's figures seem rather low and his attitude seems unfoundedly negative. Everything I have read tells me that parts of the Gaeltacht are much stronger Gaelic speaking than anywhere in Scotland, even the Western Isles. I'd definitely like to hear what others think, especially if someone has experience with Scottish Gaelic that they compare to the situation with Irish.

From an article in the Herald, we get a figure of 58,852 Scottish Gaelic speakers from the last census in 2001. It is an interesting article:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/67790.html

That number is down from the Ó Maolalaigh figure of 1998.

We were going at about the same figure at about the same time.

For Welsh, the Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg site gives this number, again by indirection:

"According to the census of 2001, 20.8% of the people of Wales speak Welsh."

A 1985 book using 1981 census data, "The Irish Language" by Máirtín Ó Murchú, estimates that no more than 25,000 of the Gaeltacht population now use Irish consistently in day-to-day communication.

King must be focusing only on the Gaeltacht.

Ó Murchú does make the point that Irish is not confined to the Gaeltacht.

25,000 is what percentage? That would seem accurate to me, but yes Irish is very much not confined to the Gaeltacht. I've read multiple places that gaeilgeoirí are in the minority in the Gaeltacht anyhow, which is terrible. Again, I'd like to hear some other opinions on people who have direct experiences. Thanks for the quotes William!

Well, maths, as they say in Ireland, are not my strong point, so some computer analog trycoon correct me if I am wrong, but taking the best case scenario that we have so far with 30,000 Irish speakers in day-to-day communcation in defined communties with an overall population of 4, 062,235 that would be not even 1 percent, something like 0.74 percent.

Yes, a minority of Gaeilgeoirí in Gaeltachtaí is ominous.

Well, I meant 25,00 is what percent of the Gaeltacht ...

[ EDIT - Wikipedia tells me 85,00 is the approximate populations combined, so we're talking around 30% of Gaeltacht people speaking Irish. That's rather heartbreaking. ]

(Message edited by Aindréas on August 21, 2006)

Hm, maybe if I bump this thread to the top some more people would comment. Anyone?

Its a horrible thought really.. i have always tried to ignore these horrible statistics as they dont really help me too much and mainly make me think about giving up hope on irish altogether, but look on the bright side.. watever or wherever it is

I didn't comment before because I thought maybe everything of use had been said. The thing that I really noticed was those numbers in that Modern Welsh book being a tod off kilter. One million Breton speakers, that sounds a bit over optimistic to me because I have heard smaller numbers everywhare else. Lughaidh I figure is the one with the expertise and knowledge to help us out with this one. And it was odd that the author placed Gaelic as being more healthy than Irish, a statement that I've never heard in all my life. I wonder if a national plan would really help Irish, you know how the government, as in other countries too of course, says lots of things but when it comes to action nothing really happens, so would a document insight the changes needed to give Irish a better future, I'd hope so but I don't know in truth.

Slan agus beannacht

Statisticians are not fair to Irish. They only count the last of non-English speakers. Those who speak Irish because they are not comfortable speaking English. I don't know where I got the figure 25,000 from but I think it may be the figure for such people. Unfortunately these Statisticians ignore people such as myself and my family -- relatives and children -- reared outside the Gaeltacht and speaking Irish frequently among ourselves. Not exclusively but we buy the papers, watch TG4, attend An tOireachtas etc. How may of us are there?

There are really that many people who don't feel comfortable speaking English?????

Even I find that hard to believe and I'm the one who's so devotedly interested in such things. Probably what they're counting is people who speak Irish most of the time in daily life, a number which is dwindling. It does seem though that they should include statistics of people who speak Irish outside the Gaeltacht in the capacity mentioned above.

Slan agus beannacht

I think Irish needs to find it centre; its focus where it the sole communitor medium.

In the Amazon right now, there are small indigenous tribes (sometimes sighted by Brazilian helicopters and planes) who, one may say have a surer linguistic foothold, simply by virture of been a) anti-outsider, and b) in the middle of a reservation.

Just think of many villages around the world where there is easy transmission of the native tongue..

Without some formal structure forcing Irish to do this artifically, as it lacks the same boundaries, well, its disipation time.


(Message edited by admin on August 24, 2006)

Without requiring outsiders who come in to learn the language and use it, the notion of a gaeltacht is doomed to failure. To begin, just like gaelic speakers had been required for generations to speak english in order to survive the same needs to be done in reverse. The same methods that disabled gaeilge and set english as primary language now need to be turned on the foreigners' tongues.

To start,
-all gov't signage country-wide in irish only - i've heard there is a plan to do this already.
-all court and government proceedings in irish only with translators provided for english-only speakers

Then you can get into
-all schools in irish only for all subjects except english (start with the kindergartens and add a grade every year so that in 12 years the program is complete)
-stipends or significant tax breaks for publishers and broadcasters who are willing to make more than 50% of their content in Irish (and greater stipends for those exceeding 75% and 95%)

this notion of "we'll save the language, but english will always be king" is a losing battle. Ideally, gaeilge and english in ireland will enjoy a paradigm much like dutch and english in the netherlands.

right now the only benefit to speaking irish is some esoteric and romantic idea of heritage and culture. but for the language to survive there need to be real and remarkable practical and economic benefits to speaking it.

More people will come to want to speak it when they *need* to speak it.

How is Welsh doing as a language? Are most people fluent, then?

(Message edited by odwyer on August 24, 2006)

Antaine,
The were some very good points you made there.

I am in total agreement with what you said and think that it is the only way forward. But the schools thing is not so simple. Because of the influx of foreigners in the country. Them having to learn a new language would be unfare. You may tough, they want to come here! ( i say the same) but the irish governemtn are a bunch of softy winge bags that cant say no to anyone, they also cant make a single decision without been supported by the EU, Britain or that eejit acros the water.

I think your ideas are nobel, and shared by many a people ondaltai and here in ireland, BUT there is also alot of irish people who couldnt give 2 shits about irish, or tradition. Why do you need this when you have money anyway? ( read september 1913, by W.B. Yeats, this will explain it betteR)

Im rambling on now, so i will stop...

Many of the more extreme measures required to cause people to "need" to use Irish -- i.e. to force people -- are neither possible nor desirable. Níor mhaith liom maireachtáil faoina leithéid de réimeas. [I would not like to live under such a regime.] Such measures would make life unbearable for many Irish people never mind those from other parts of the world who chose to live here and contribute to our economy.

I think we in Ireland have a more relaxed attitude. The English-only speakers do not object to Irish being the First Official Language in the Constitution, nor to it being recognized by the EU, nor to it being taught in all schools up to Leaving Cert, nor to the establishment of numerous all-Irish schools in all counties, nor to Irish being broadcast from most radio stations and to the existence of TG4, nor to the existence of little enclaves where generous grants and subsidies are available to families who speak Irish. I think we are doing fairly well.

I think regime is a bit of a harsh word to use. It would be a country wide teaching method. You are right in saying alot of people do not feel the need to speak irish, but i'm sure if irish was advertised correctly, it would inspire pride in alot more people.

Because we have had this economic growth spurn , I think now would be a great time to really push irish advertisement. Not force people, but really put some effort in so everyone can see it. Everyone is so busy now a days that they dont see irish. It doesnt come into their thoughts, therefore why would they learn it... Ordinary people who cant speak irish have no real options open to them, they have no will or encouragment from anyone, it needs to be a matter of national pride, and TBH its not at the moment. There is nothing on the TV's bar TG4 (which alot of people ignore cas they dont know wats goin on) about irish, nothing.

Im sure with a good push from the government, with INTELLIGENT advertisement, they really could give people something to be proud of, being irish and being able to speak your mother tongue. Irish should be a fashion statement to the world that we are not sheep, and jst do what the next fella is doin..

You never know, irish could be fashionable!

so...do the school thing first. Five-year-olds can pick up the language through immersion at school without even trying. Like I said, add a grade every year (to make the transition easier both for teaching staff and the students already in the english language education system) so that in less than fifteen years, all students in ireland ready for university will be fluent, without ever having had to take it as a second language class (although there'd be an "Irish class" for the finer points just like english speaking schools have english classes.

Once you've produced a generation fluent in both irish and english, then signage, government proceedings etc will be much less of a hassle.

And you're right, most english speakers don't mind stuff being done to benefit irish - as long as they themsleves don't have to do anything (particularly learn or use it). So you dump a bunch of money in the gaeltacht along with a flood of english speaking tourism and immigration, prompting the natives to use more and more english for economic reasons. Really now, what good has the money done?

true true...

I think before you even consider the whole school thing, you have to revise the whole teaching system.. Starting witht eh teachers who areCRAP at irish(well alot of them anyway)
Need top class teachers, from gaeltacht areas if possible. BIG BIG money should be paid to teachers who teach irish. And grants for students who take it in college.. BIG grants. Take some money out of the "gaeltacht fund", pump it into revitalising the irish teaching system that is in the schools. Also better facilities for some of the poorer colaistes around the country that offer immersion courses.

Road signs in irish. (Really really small english underneath it :) ) etc.. bla bla bla..




Also take a leaf oput of rath cairns book back in the day.. Give grants to familys who have moved out of the gaeltacht area and get them to move back.. give them a few acres, few chickens, a sow, and we're flyin'! :-)

(Message edited by niallmac on August 25, 2006)

You two are on to it and I only wish someone from the government read these posts because we all know what we want, but it probably won't do anything unless someone with some measure of influence takes it seriously.

Antaine's school suggestion is the best in my opinion, adding a grade each year and so forth. I suspect that a lot of teachers would make a scene about how they just aren't good enough at Irish to teach in it. But Ireland is probably the only country in which you don't have to be able to speak the first national language, so lets change that.

Slan agus beannacht

absolutely. Teacher, while not necessarily native speakers, will need to be fluent.

If knowing and using Irish can be made to directly or indirectly put money in people's pockets they will want to learn it, plain and simple.

I just don't think it can survive indefinitely in a marginal position next to a language as huge as english. Ultimately, if Irish is going to survive the next 150-200 years it must gain back its primacy.

The EU has provided benefits by updating agriculture and allowing an economic boom. But the "open borders" thing is as much a disaster culturally for Ireland as it is here in the US.

I wonder if there are not EU or UN monies or programs available for countries trying to save endangered indigenous languages.

It is sad but true. People will learn whatever language will benefit them financially. Why do so many people in the US want to learn Spanish? Because you can get a better job if you know it because you are a valuable asset to the company, making it so that business can be done more effectively with Spanish speaking customers. It is considered to be the most usefull language and so kids learn it in High School even if they don't have an interest in it, as opposed to French which might not get them a job over the nonFrench speakers.

So Irish does indeed need to become financially appealing in order to entise people into speaking it, sad really, but its how things are in our world.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I agree with Niallmac on the need for Irish to be visible. I look forward to the Official Languages Act making a difference here so that Irish will be used and not in "italics" which are used in English to indicate "foreign". Give equality to Irish in signage.

Regarding having the infant classes taught through Irish that was the rule from the 30s onwards -- through the 40s, 50s, down to the early 60s. Then Lemass (I think ..?) closed the Coláistí Ullmhúcháin. These were special preparatory boarding colleges that prepared youngsters for entry to the Teacher Training Colleges many of which taught through Irish in those years. Any teacher who emerged from a Coláiste Ullmhúcháin had / has fluent Irish.

At the same time -- early 60s -- the rule regarding teaching the infants through Irish was relaxed "if the teacher felt the objective of teaching Irish could be better achieved ... blah .. blah .. blah ..." Later on "free education" as introduced and the last attempts to teach the "A-stream" in ordinary secondary schools through Irish was abandoned. When "compulsory Irish" for the Leaving Cert was removed in 1972 (?) it seemed like the end for the language but ... surprise! surprise! ... parents started to demand education through Irish for their children and the Gaelscoil phenomenon began. It began with one primary school and now there are -- how many? -- 200? -- more? Who would have imagined it back in the 60s.

I agree that the use of Irish needs to be encouraged in every way possible -- especially with bilingual signage and generous support for arts and recreation through Irish. Irish-speaking youth organisers need to be apointed in the Gaeltacht areas and good facilities need to be provided for potential Irish-speaking communities outside the Gaeltacht such as Áras Crónáin in Cluain Dolcáin and Áras Pobail Ráth Cairn. Even Baile Gib which had been given up for lost as a Gaeltacht area still has more young Irish-speakers in it than any similar area in Meath and could well surprise future generations if the State support for the language is sustained and pursued imaginatively. Indeed there were other areas in Counties Meath and Kildare where Gaeltacht people were settled which were never given any recognition as Gaeltacht areas. It would be interesting to survey them to see if the language survived down through the two or three generations.

If I were Taoiseach I would repeat the Ráth Cairn project over and over again and not merely in remote rural areas but also in the cities and towns.

Regarding teachers being poor at Irish: at least they are expected to have some Irish at present. The Primary teachers' union, the INTO, has fought the Irish-language requirement down through the years and even now is seeking recognition for teachers trained abroad who do not know Irish. Obviously if Irish unity were to come about the position of the two language communities would become much clearer. With a million Unionists hostile to the Irish language some modus vivendi would have to be reached. I think this objective underlies many decisions although it is seldom stated. Fine Gael's leader Enda Kenny plans to make Irish optional for Leaving Cert. His fellow party member Gay Mitchel is wondering if we could find a place for the British Monarch. The Republic of Ireland President travels regularly in the North. There are interesting times ahead.

I would like to add that I am in agreement with most of what has been said here...

However, I think the school approach, as well as the government approach, has failed the Irish language. It is not producing the results needed for any serious revival of usage. Students are treating the Irish classes like any math or science class. They learn only what they have to in order to get out of there, and then they data dump what they learned often wih negative emotions towards it. The government is too busy with the politics of the language, that they refuse to take any serious actions to preserve it, let alone promote it.

I have said this before, and I will probably say this until the day I die...right now the only thing that can save the language is a good PR campaign through the use of modern media. And by that I am talking about the most influential media there is...the television.

Don't get me wrong, Radio Na Gaeltacht and TG4 are very nice, but how many young people are actually watching and listening? Is it enough to increase the numbers? I don't think so...

I can not understand how Irish has taken a back seat in the modern world? With television, radio, movies, and magazines...it is absolutely heartbreaking to see a country and culture known for its artistic richness and boldness refuse to utilize such limitless potentials and means to express itself in her native language that she claims to want?

Recently a DVD has been made with a collection of short films in Irish. And people think this is a good thing? How long have DVD's been out that they could have been doing this all along? You can't say they didn't have enough material because they have been making short films in Irish for a very long time!

I went to a local independant film showing a few months ago and the feature film was a movie from some remote place in the Sahara. It was in some tribal language that I had never heard of...but during the film they told us that there are only a couple hundred people in this tribe and that their culture was dying out...now let me get this straight, a poor African tribe in the middle of the desert can put together a feature film in a language only a couple hundred people could understand...and the best we can do for Irish is a six minute animation???

What is Ireland afraid of...success???

Ireland is a modern affluent society like the US. They don't see a point to putting in all that work for something they frankly don't need.

Listen to the people who live there and are fluent. It's so difficult to get services in Irish even though it's mandated by law. What services are available are put together by people who don't speak the language well. They wind up using english anyway.

So for the average person in Ireland, the benefit to learning Irish is what, exactly? We all know that there are benefits, but nothing that can be seen or felt in the short term - which is all people care about.

Yes, PR is essential.

Schooling is essential...it needs to not be a foreign-langugage class but complete immersion from the earliest days.

Government is essential, but it needs to be used throughout.

To participate in government during the british days you had to (among other things we won't get into here) speak english (and in practice, english-only was used). This created an english-speaking elite who had more opportunities than those who didn't speak it. As such, people left irish over time feeling that english was essential to their futures.

Do the same for Irish.

english had a PR campaign, but not an active one which said "english is cool"...they had a passive one, where everyone who looked around said, "if we can't speak english we'll never get ahead"

Ireland is a nation of smart people. Why is it that so few seem to grasp the idea that the brits left (most of) Ireland with a blueprint for language shift. What was once the weapon used in an attempt to kill Irish can now be used to save it in less extreme, but no less tangible measures.

Cad faoi Plean Idirnáisiúnta don Ghaeilge?

The problem IS! that irish people are thought irish wrong, simple as that. Irish, is a spoken language, being able to comment on poetly as gaeilge is TOTALLY irrelevant if you cannot trually understand the poetry. It really angers me how the gov think that having poetry and pros on the Teastas Soisearacht would ever be beneficial to kids who cant feckin speak irish! **ANGRY

It wastes alot of learning time.

Actually, some people say that more time and effort should be put into teaching irish at a younger age ie. less than 13 years of age, but the last thing we need is a bunch of kids who are fluent in irish but can't tell their 9 times tables or where belgium is

Its a case of whether people actualy commit to irish and in some kids cases sacrifice the knowledge of maths or geography to give a stonger understanding of irish OR continue on as we are going where are kids are getting stronger and stronger in other subjects and demoting irish to a lower class subject that is not required for the only thing they need right now, "points for college", or 'get outa here as quick as possible as easy as possible to start my apprentice'

Ná bac leis an Rialtas. Tuige nár mhaith leis an Gael Gaeilge a labhairt?

is iomaí daoine mae gaeilge a labhairt ach níl go leor áiseanna ar fáil don daoine go mbíonn réidh le ullamh chun gaeilge a foghlaim.
Agus, tá a lán daoine nach bhfuil an eolas nó tecnolaíoscht nó áiseanna agaibh a deir is maith liom gaeilge nó is fuath liom gaeilge. níl an rogha agaibh, Ní feiceann siad Gaeilge gach lá, níl aon cúis maithe mar gaeilge a foghlaim, ach le déanaí, feicim gur rud faisiuin gaeilge, agus ceapaim gur rud iontach é!
Go raibh maith agat a Hector!


céard faoi a bhfuil mé ag caint?

tá mé ag babailte!! ;-)

(Message edited by niallmac on August 29, 2006)

Aontaím libh go hiomlán.
In Ireland we have a situation where to become a qualified teacher at primary school level, a very high level of irish is necessary. I don't doubt for a minute that the vast majority of teachers are fluent irish speakers. However, in teacher training colleges, irish is taught in a professional sense rather than a way in which teaching would be done through the medium of irish.
Is mór an trua. It is here where the changes must begin.
Beir bua...

Muise!

Cad faoi Plean Idirnáisiúnta don Ghaeilge?

An bhfuil éinne ag éisteacht?

Táimid ag éisteacht ... D'fhéadfaí "World Heritage Site" a dhéanamh den Ghaeltacht agus athchruthú a dhéanamh ar shaol na meán-aoiseanna i láithreacha oidhreachta ar fud na tíre ina mbeadh gach gné den chultúr Gaelach á chleachtadh: filíocht, ceol, cogaíocht sr. Leithscéal ar bith le Gaeilgeoirí a chruinniú le chéile is a chur ag obair is ag caint Gaeilge....

[athchruthú - recreate; saol na meán-aoiseanna - life in the Middle Ages; láithreacha oidhreachta - heritage sites / centres]

Even if the old traditional Gaeltacht has vanished in many parts of the country new "Gaeltachtaí" have appeared: Ros na Rún (think of all the actors there using Irish; drama programmes on TG4 etc. Gaelscoileanna. All that remains now for us is to think of other occasions when people can be assembled with the specific purpose of using Irish. Once the language is in use it will be learnt. We need to use it more and more.

Maybe some kind of irish music festival where no english would be spoken (except for the music) but the majority of the music would be trad acts, there are hundreds out there tryin to get a head start that would be good.

It could be held in some park some where. i would call it.. Fleadh Ceol na hEireann Fleadh Niall Nóigiallach

sounds good to me

the problem with that is that gaeilge needs to attract english speakers in the country to pick it up and use it, and whenever you get a large group of mainly english speakers who havent' learned any irish yet in one place, guess what language they're going to speak.

to limit it to fluent speakers would be preaching to the choir...

One effect of Raidio na Gaeltachta and Teilifis na Gaeilge later TG4 was to shoot the idea that "Irish is a dead language" dead in the water. That phrase is seldom heard now. Monoglot English speakers are not so comfortable about their superiority any more. Schoolchildren know the language exists even before they meet it in school. They see it on roadsigns and they hear it on radio and TV. There is no instant solution but steady progress is being made. Nevertheless the main objective must be to maintain and revive the language in those communities where it is accepted as a public language for religious services and public occasions, community sports days, political meetings etc. If Irish sinks from view in those areas there will be little hope of bringing it back.

dheara, téigí amach agus labhair í. Sin mo Phlean Idirnáisiúnta na Gaeilge

I must agree with Taidhgín,

However, I still feel that the youth can be reached if they are treated as youth...why is it we can reach them in every corner of advertising except Irish. We know what they like, and what they don't like...yet we do not play on their likes when it comes to Irish. It is getting better, cartoons are out in Irish, but still has anyone actually sat down and watch these things? They are definitely for the age group 3-6...maybe if we tried to expand this idea to 3-12 we might see an increase in interests. I mean let's face it, children change their likes with each new show they see, but if they all had a common theme, oh I don't know maybe the Irish language, then maybe it wouldn't matter what their current fancy is because they would be increasing and promoting their knowledge, usage, exposure, and most important...acceptance of the language.

Ná bac lena bhfuil daoine ag caitheamh leat, Téigí amach is labhair Í.

I agree that getting young people into the language is really important because they're the next generation and they will be the ones who either use or lay aside the language. More kids shows would definitely be a grand idea. Also its good to have more variety in general. The more different types of shows there are in Irish, the more people will watch TG4 and gain an appreciation for the language and its validity and importance.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I was just thinking about some of the different options out there for Ireland's ability to promote the language in an official means...

One of the things that I thought was an interesting approach, and seems to be holding its own in Wales, is the employment rerquirement of being able to speak Welsh.

Now this is not for every job, however, it is a key factor in getting a job in some cases. And I was thinking about how such a thing could help promote the Irish language also.

If the language could be used as a determination factor in employment, do you think people might more inclined to have a proficiency in it???

I am going to use Spanish in the United States as an example...

Right now, many employers are seeking employees who can speak Spanish to fill jobs that could require bilingual situations. One of the major questions on most applications concerns your ability to speak Spanish. Granted it is a simple, "Can you speak Spanish, Yes or No?" But there have been recorded instances where that was the difference between two equally qualified potentials.

Does Ireland have anything like this? I have heard stories about employment in the Gaeltacht regions and certain types of jobs such as the Garda needing Irish, but are there such requirements in a average job in the major cities?

I think on the whole the answer is no, John. From everything I hear occupations and jobs that require Irish (yet that are not themed on Irish) are pathetically lacking in the public sector and government. I don't even think dealings with the Gaeltacht from outside administration are conducted in Irish, which is ridiculous. I think people have been pleasantly surprised at how some parts of Galltacht have managed to not completely slaughter Irish, so my opinion is that the government needs to concentrate more energy into making each and every current Gaeltacht a fíor Gaeltacht. I sometimes don't think it's such a vague task as so many seem to make it out to be. There are very specific, defined small steps that can be taken in this direction, and I don't understand why it's not happening. I'm really curious about what more knowledgeable people have to say about this, which is why I asked such question about the Gardaí and related. Others please share what you know on these kinds of issues!

quote:

Granted it is a simple, "Can you speak Spanish, Yes or No?"

To weed out those who really can't speak Spanish, maybe the application should say "Hablas Espanol, si o no?"

If I ever start another company here in the States, I'm going to make Irish as the "bilingual" requirement: An bhfuil Gaeilge agat, tá nó níl?

Well...

I may have over simplified it a little, but that's about it. Some of the applications that I have seen have also changed over the years. My first job was at a fast food place, and they asked if I could speak yes or no...now I think they get a little more specific, like are you fluent in Spanish...

It is a shame, this is a little push the governemt and business could do. They don't even have to make a big deal about there being a requirement...people will do that on their own.

For instance, here in the States...classes are being offered at both second and third level educational institutions on how to get a job. Everything from the "what are you looking to do stage" to the creation of a resume to the practice interview. They really go in depth on how to get above the competition, from the skills currently being searched for, the clothes to wear, even the manner in which you shake a person's hand are taught. But one thing that I have noticed, is that in all of these classes, they harp on skills that set you apart from people and the ability to "speak another language is a biggy for impressing people."

In fact, it is such a biggy...most employers are paying their people to learn Spanish and sending them to school to learn it. Imagine how many Irish fanatics would come out if they got paid to learn...or...even know the language.

Right now, Ireland and the US are in a similar situations. There is a minority language that is trying to make itself known and one of the ways it can get some positive exposure is in the advancement of employees in the work place.

But as I said, it is just a thought...

From what I've heard, correct me if I'm incorrect le do thoil, there used to be stricter requirements for knowledge of Irish in public sector jobs, though I doubt that they were always enforced. But now they've relaxed most of those, making it a lot easier to get by with less Irish, officially and not just "we'll pass you anyway" stuff.

Two or three areas where Irish was a requirement have been relaxed in my lifetime: the Civil Service; the Secondary Teachers, and now the Gardaí. Irish seems to be optional for them with disastrous results in my opinion. Members of the legal profession still need a knowledge of Irish to qualify but they are protesting as are the Primary Teachers. The difficulty of serving the Gaeltacht in Irish is that Gaeltacht speakers of Irish do not expect it and almost welcome the opportunity to show off their English to important outsiders. They have a world view of their own and English is central to many parts of their lives and they have no inclination to change that -- especially if those they are likely to be dealing with have insufficient Irish to give a really good service. Us learners of Irish find it difficult to appreciate real life in the Gaeltacht.


Tá an ceart ag Fe_arn: caithfimid féin an teanga a labhairt oiread agus is féidir linn.

Something you said there caught my attention, I've seen it before and thought it interesting. You said that the Gaeltacht people want to show that they've got good English. Does someone doubt that they do? Believe me it is well-nye impossible to find any information about those few who don't, so few and far between they are, so why are people feeling the need to show they have good English. Maybe I misunderstood you.

7 more days.

There are areas of the country where the people with very little education speak a language that is neither English nor Irish. All the Irish they know is a few isolated words and phrases that have come down to them, their English has been learnt from people who had little formal education themselves. John Millington Synge wrote his plays in this "Kiltartanese" but the printed word misses the fact that the English words are actually pronounced according to Irish givng full effect to the caol le caol rule. Even some of the features of Irish are retained such as the use of ~ín -- a small glass becomes "glasheen", a small house "a little housheen" etc. Professor Alan Bliss of UCD may have studied this Hiberno-English language and I know Diarmaid Ó Muirithe published a word-list. Even the grammar is affected by Irish: "Thet preesht wass at us two yeeurss" -- "Bhí an sagart sin againn dhá bhliain". Needless to say it is a language doomed to die very soon. I also know people who know and spoke Ulster Scots "Ullans" (?) in their youth who now speak Standard English but who can still "perform" on request. There used be a broadcaster on Radio Éireann long ago "Barney McCool o' Coolahy" who regularly delivered a talk in Ulster Scots. We thought it comical. Again a language doomed to die in spite of the provisions of the Good Friday Agreement.

Once people realise that their English is not quite the standard they become ashamed and less confident and will often apologise for their "lack of education". I myself remember feeling resentment as a child when I heard my Primary School teacher making fun of such people who didn't speak English "properly" because I knew my own own parents were being mocked.

How much greater is the shame when the language spoken by your parents isn't even English. The Gaeltacht is a more complex community than might at first appear to those unfamiliar with the pressure of English and the distainful superiority of those who insist on using English only, generally those in prestige posts in the community. I would be tempted to give a list but I suspect that in the Gaeltacht today such posts are now being filled by Irish-speakers. The tide may be turning. I hope so.

Just back from the Gaeltacht. Don't forget that until very recently the fate of anyone born in the gaeltacht was to leave, usually for an english speaking place.

They were made to feel inferior because they spoke (in)different english. I was speaking to a local man, who had been away, and returned. He clearly felt that shame deeply, although he was proud to speak Irish, and happy to see it spoken more often and more publicly.

But it is still the fate of most people born in the gaeltacht to leave, and, as a parent, I can understand those parents who want their children to have perfect English and avoid that shame.

There has been a lot of negative feeling among the teaching and medical professions about bilingualism, and a lot of talk about "illiterate in two languages" which it will take time to eradicate.

Of relevance:

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeltacht/CoisteComhairleacharThuarascailChoimisiunna Gaeltachta/

http://www.pobail.ie/en/AnGhaeltacht/AdvisoryCommitteeontheReportoftheGaeltachtC ommission/

2 very interesting posts, thank you

Yesterday in response to Ríona's request for an expansion of the point that Gaeltacht people like to show they have good English I wrote a rather depressing reply as an "Unregistered Guest". Aonghus' comment on the danger of being "illiterate in two languages" is valid but thanks to widespread secondary and third-level education and the influence of the ubiquitous media the fear of having poor English is receding. The class structure of most of the Gaeltacht has changed dramatically and there are now rich and poor where formerly, a hundred years ago, there were only the poorest of the poor. Most Gaeltacht families have relatives in high earning positions throughout the country now and enjoy prestige as a result. Where a Gaeltacht exists close to a large centre of population there are Irish-speaking families who choose to live there and you will find university professors and lecturers, TV presenters, business directors and managers, musicians and artists, living side by side with farmers and fishermen.

Gaeltacht people who actually speak Irish are no longer isolated from each other. They have Raidio na Gaeltachta which carries wonderful programmes from each of the centres where Irish is really spoken and they are obviously proud of their Irish. When Gaeltacht people "emigrate" to other parts of Ireland many immediately avail of the nearest Irish-medium school, an Ghaelscoil, for their children. It is clear that if the Government chooses to really promote and support Irish there is a sizable community throughout the country that will respond with goodwill and enthusiasm.

I'm glad of this post you've just made, it is more encouraging in the sense of Irish being seen as a language for everyone.

Although I understand the origin of the shame complex, I don't think I ever could understand the shame complex itself, why it lingered, and in some cases still does linger, for so long. I'll not understand it ever I suspect, for an exquisite language isn't shameful to my mind, not that such item really counts here in this situation.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Seo moladh.
Ná bac le Plean nua ach déan aithris ar Phlean An Bhéarla a d'fhág Béarla ag trian den saol!

Maith thu a Thaidhgin

I agree with your analysis and I think the population at large is increasingly well disposed towards Irish. I also think that with the dramatic increase in immigration, with people from other countries bringing their culture and language them, this will act as a catalyst for the Irish to reappraise their attitude to their own language and culture.

Foras na Gaeilge and other promoters should seriously look at this as a marketing strategy

Dar fia! An dóigh libh gur earra é an Ghaeilge agus sibhse an lucht díolacháin? Ceannaigh anois í, sladmhargadh na seachtaine: le gach briathar a fhoghlaimíos tú, gheobhaidh tú briathar nua saor in aisce.

One effect of the "new Irish" who speak languages other than English is to cause those of us who value Irish to seek to use it. When we hear the "new Irish" speak English so well we suddenly realise how much Irish we heard mixed through their English from our parents in our childhood: mar dhea, you're very teann (bold, self-confident), he's only a piteachán (a term being discussed on another thread), Go mbeannaithear dhuit, a Mhuire, .... etc etc. And we didn't live near an "official Gaeltacht". Will the "new Irish" ensure that we "improve" our English and discard these reminders of our earlier ancestral language? We have a choice. Irish is not a product but part of our identity and for me a reminder of my childhood. I am proud that we succeeded in learning it again and being able to speak it to each other and to our children. I hope others will do the same and remove some of the hurt of having lost so much in losing our own language. Athbheochan!

Social marketing is a technique that has long being recognised a means of engaging with the public with a view to influencing behaviour, in this case to adopt a more positive attitude towards and engagement with our native language, and indeed achieve what Tadhgin hopes for.

Then we can all be as liofa and sarcastic as Fe_arn

"Then we can all be as liofa and sarcastic as Fe_arn"

Is cuma leis an teanga an saghas duine thú fhad is a chuireann tú amach as Irish ;)

Ta an ceart agat, a Fhe_arn. Tarraingím siar an focal ainspianta sin. Bhíothas im shuí go déanach an oiche sin, agus bhí an suaimhneas caillte agam.

Chomh maith le sin bhí frustrachas orm de bharr mo easpa fhocail.

So, "féar plé duit, a bhuachail"

Lig led anáil agus beidh tú ar do sheanléim

Glacfaidh mé an comhairle iontaofa sin