Could anyone tell me if there is an Irish equivalent of the English boy's name Frank? Thank you.

Proinsias.

Of course! What was I thinking?!?

Thank you so much. Go rath maith agat.

Can somebody explain this NAME EQUIVALENT thing?

How did it come about?

I read somewhere that both Siobhan and Sinead are equivalents of Johanna!??

I don't get it...

When people change languages, as happened in Ireland, they like to keep family names.

How the english equivalent is picked is unclear - for example, Diarmuid (an ancient Irish name) became equivalent to Jeremiah (an ancient Hebrew name).
There is no connection in meaning between the two, but a slight similarity in sound.

I'd always heard that Sinead was the Irish form of Janet while Siobhan was Joan or Johanna

Scríobh Dan:
Can somebody explain this NAME EQUIVALENT thing?

Some people find it disconcerting to be speaking Irish and all of a sudden need to switch to a non-Irish word (such as an English name). For that reason, many schools give people an Irish equivalent of their name. (Some folks don't bother with this, or couldn't care less.)

Some English names are actually of Irish origin -- if so, then it's quite simple to just switch it back to Irish when you're speaking Irish.

English names of non-Irish origin are a different story. Then instead of translating it back to Irish we need to find the closest Irish name. Sometimes that has more to do with the "meaning" of the name than the sound, other times people choose an equivalent that's closest in sound.

As mentioned above, not everyone bothers with this, or is bothered by sprinkling English sounds amidst their Irish. Ultimately it's an entirely personal choice.

When I first came on, I thought I could just spell my own name out in an Irish manner, except the problem was that it ended up being the word for convicts, so I looked up my name's meanings and was told (by Aonghus) what Irish name I could use with similar meaning. I thus am very thankful to Aonghus for giving me my Irish name :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

I am intrigued by name equivalents. Is there an Irish name for Beth? (It's not Bethany or Elizabeth--just Beth)

Thanks.

What does it mean?

I've only ever come across it as an abbreviation.

Riona

I'm intrigued as how your name became "convicts" and thereafter Riona, or have I got it all wrong?

Kimee -> (sounds like) Cimí (plural of convicts)

But Kimee means "ruler" so I suggested Ríona which has a similar meaning.

Even in US schools, the renaming thing is common practice. Some students find it fun, and it imparts a bit of a sense of ownership on the part of the student toward the language. In all my years of taking French I was Antoine. It was the second thing we did on the first day of class. The teacher didn't speak english, and said in French "hello, my name is X, what is your name?" and then as we caught on to what she was saying and answered back with our names in english, she'd Frenchify it on the spot and ask the question of the next student. Those were our names for the next four years for that class.

Sometimes meaning is translated. I had a Greek friend named Mersina who wanted to learn Irish. She asked for an Irish name and so we had to go with the meaning of hers, "flower." Unfortunately, that made her name Blath, but hey, that falls under the 'you asked for it' category ;-)

Sometimes there is a recognized equivalent, Anthony = Antaine/Antóin, James = Séamus etc

And sometimes the name is simply respelled to follow spelling rules so a friend of mine from the daltaí weekends is named Casey (or some variant thereof) and is spelled Cathasaigh.

Rarely, an entirely different name is chosen by the student as what they would like to be known as in that language. In my French class there was a Brian, which does not have a French equivalent of which my teacher knew, he liked Jerôme and so that became his name for class.

I was born in raised in Dublin, and am still living there. The name on my birthcert, passport, bank accounts, etc. is Joseph Moriarty.
Within the last year, I've decided to be known as Seosamh Ó Muircheartaigh, because I rather have an Irish name than an English name (regardless of whether my ancestors chose to change or were forced to change). Even when speaking English, I correct people now when they call me "Joseph", and inform them that my name is Seosamh.

To get my name officially recognised as Seosamh Ó Muircheartaigh by the state, I have to complete a Deed of Change of Name. I still have the forms under my bed... just haven't gotten around to it. Plus it'll cost me about €45.

The idea of using different language versions of my name in different contexts doesn't appeal to me -- I prefer to be known as Seosamh all the time (to indicate and acknowlege my Irish-ness).

*Joseph Moriarty = pseudonym

Beth = house in Hebrew (so, Bethel, Bethlehem, Bethany, etc.)

Its perculiar but I've sort of begun to think of myself as Riona. Whenever I imagine myself in the future with a husband and little children it is Riona that I see myself being called. Perculiar indeed.

Beir bua agus beannacht

//Proinsias//

Proinséas

//How the english equivalent is picked is unclear - for example, Diarmuid (an ancient Irish name) became equivalent to Jeremiah (an ancient Hebrew name)//

The same is with Aoghan;
i saw three explanations
1)"eo+gein" Irish "yew born"
2)from Hebrew Johan(nes) "Gods gift"
3)Greek "noble"

though i know that the right one is number 1).

//Beth//
maybe from Bettina?

//Riona//
from Banríon=)

Beth is a shortened form of Elizabeth which would be Eilís as Gaeilge and has gone from being a nickname to being a name on its own but I can't find an Irish version. Beth is also the second letter of the Hebrew alphabet so maybe Dara (second)would fit. Dara is also a real Irish name

One of my students years ago whose name was "Beth" decided on "Beatha" for her Irish name, despite the "th"not having the same sound as the "th" in "Beth".

our nametags at work have a tagline beneath the name saying "Can't find what you're looking for? Ask me about Hotline" and gives the number. It's not really important what Hotline does for the story.

Anyway, just this past week I figured out the fonts for the nametag, printed one up that said Antaine as well as the rest of it all in Irish. I'm just wearing it and seeing how many people even notice.

To me, a name is how the world identifies and addresses me. Those in the world who speak other languages can address me with whatever version of "Anthony" exists in their language. Strikes me as being the purpose of a name, for others to address me and discuss me easily. Our notion of having a say in what that address is is fairly modern - otherwise we'd choose our own names at some kind of "coming of age" ritual rather than having them chosen for us at birth...something like Confirmation, but even then we stick with our given names.

Dia dhaoibh,

Ceist beag as Béarla:

How is the name "Aodhán" pronounced? A native speaker told us that it is "eh-GHAN" but we're afraid that there might be a misunderstanding. Does anyone know?

My cousin calls her son " a dawn" accented on last syllable. Irish spelling of Aidan

quote:

The same is with Aoghan;
i saw three explanations
1)"eo+gein" Irish "yew born"
2)from Hebrew Johan(nes) "Gods gift"
3)Greek "noble"

though i know that the right one is number 1).

I take your point, but I was confused for a moment. You made a typo, or conflated two names:

a) Aogán, earlier spelled Aodhagán (anglicized Egan), from Old Irish Áeducán, a diminutive of Áed (= Fire)

b) Eoghan (anglicized Owen), from Old Irish Éogan, as you explain in (1) above.

A Fhir na mBróg, dé do bheatha thar n-ais!

It is good you added that Moriarty is a pseudonym, I started to worry if you changed you name completely, as I remember you not being Joseph (Seosamh for that matter), neither Moriarty. ;)))

quote:

//Proinsias//

Proinséas

As far as I know, "Proinsias" is male and "Proinséas" is female. This echos English usage: Francis Vs. Frances.

quote:

Its perculiar but I've sort of begun to think of myself as Riona. Whenever I imagine myself in the future with a husband and little children it is Riona that I see myself being called. Perculiar indeed.

If you really like it so much, you might consider changing it. Stranger things have happened -- think Muhammad Ali.

quote:

How is the name "Aodhán" pronounced?

Have you heard of the American rapper "Akon"? Change the "k" sound to a "g" sound, and that's how I pronounce it: AY GONE

AY as in DAY
GONE as in The food is all gone.

Aodhán,

[eːjɑːnˠ] or [eːjɑːn̪ˠ]

Why would it be ‘g’ as it might have been /Ɣ/ historically, but the voiced velar fricative has now changed /j/ in medial positions

Aodhán is a spelling mishap, as far as I can tell. In Classical Modern Irish it was Aodhagán, and it is properly Aogán now -- but some people, in shortening the spelling, kept the 'dh' rather than the 'g'. Mo bharúil, ar aon nós!

Grand

Go raibh míle maith agaibh a Lucy, Dennis, Fear na mBróg, agus Mr. P!

So you can say either "eh GHAN" or "eh DAHN".
It looks like our native speaker friend was right :)

Our son's name is Aodhán and he never comes to us when use the anglicized pronunciation "EY duhn", only when we call him "eh GHAN". He can't talk yet but he must be real perceptive.

The last post was actually WeeFalorieMan not Shoshana.

Oops. I have to retract what I said about "Aodhán" being a spelling mishap. Modern Aogán definitely comes from earlier Aodhagán, but Aodhán has its own history, from Old Irish Áedán, another diminutive (along with Áeducán) of the fire-name Áed.

quote:

So you can say either "eh GHAN" or "eh DAHN".

Wellll... yes and no. Irish doesn't normally admit a broad lenited 'gh' or 'dh' sound expect a the beginning of a word ("dhá", "ghabh"). Aodhán is sometimes pronounced with hiatus: Ao-án. People pronounce proper names in whatever way suits them, so sometimes this medial "dh" is realized as /g/ or /d/. See the anglicization Aidan that Lucy mentioned for the latter. It seems to me that there are a few common nouns in Irish in which a medial 'dh' is normally pronounce /g/, but none comes to mind at the moment.

Here are a few examples where old 'dh' is pronounced /g/, and now written with a 'g' in the modern spelling:

cródha > cróga = stalwart, brave
órdha > órga = golden
feardha > fearga = manly

I think "feadh" may be pronounced with a final /g/ in Ulster... or do they actually use a /gh/ sound there? Ulster may be one place where Aodhán is pronounced with a lenited /gh/ in the middle, and with a very different initial vowel from Munster and the stress on the first syllable. I'm not sure at all, but Lughaidh can speak to this.

My cousin lives in Munster so it may be a regional thing - they're in Kerry

Hi, just wandering if anyone knows the gaelic name equivalents to EMMA and LLOYDETTE. I'm Austalian and am really interested if anyone can help! Thanx! :)

The Name Nerds website has good advice for translating names into Irish:
http://www.namenerds.com/irish/trans.html

They have a great page on suggestions for "Problem Names" -- Emma is included there:
http://www.namenerds.com/irish/problem.html

That site is pretty good, but I'd strongly advise anyone to check back here because a few of the spellings and pronunciations are wrong.

An interesting one is the "Irish form" of Rachel; it's listed as Ráichéal, and the pronounciation given is RAW shale... which doesn't make sense -- I would have thought it was RAW kale.

Good point -- I was going to mention that but was rushing a bit. :) While the pronunciations are dodgy at times, he DOES have a great site & sene of humor (see this as well: http://www.namenerds.com/irish/modern.html)

I remember the first day in secondary school. A Coloured lad called Graham Siwale (pronounced Si- Wally) joined the school from africa. he had never had an irish name and the brother insisted on giving him an irish name for irish class. He gave him 'Graham Sa Bhaile' which i still find hilarious.. :-)

Dia duit,
Is the name Keegan Irish? If so, what does it mean? If not, does it have an equivilent? Sorry about all the questions. I'm curious.
Slan

Yes, there is an Irish name 'Keegan'

Keegan from 'Mac Keegan' from the Irish 'Mac Aogáin'

Dia duit, a Antoin,
thanks.
Do you know if it has a meaning?

Mac Aogáin

Son of Aogán.

I don't know the origin of the name, Aogán.

Go raibh maith agat.

The English-language surname, Keegan, came from the English-language surname, McEgan. In most of Ireland, the latter would be pronounced something like "Ma Keegan", which explains how the transition took place.

McEgan came from the Irish-language surname, "Mac Aodhagáin". The different forms of it are:

Male nominative: Domhnall Mac Aodhagáin
Female nominative: Síle Nic Aodhagáin
Female nominative post-marriage: Róisín Mhic Aodhagáin

I'm not quite sure about how "Mac" works in the genitive case.

Often, mac would become mag as the following vowel is voiced k -->g; however, with egan having g in it, this might not have happened.

MacGirl seems to have been Feargal + Mac Mac Fheargal --> Mag Fheargail (for example). Just a side point

Dia daoibh,

I was wondering if anyone knew of an Irish translation for the name 'Andrea'. My sister-in-law wants to name her baby girl Andrea but would prefer an Irish translation of this. I have tried the name nerds website but can only find translations for Andrew etc.

Go raibh maith agaibh!

well, I found a site giving Aindréas for Andrew. Perhaps simply Aindréa might work?

When I looked to meaning, Andrew is attributed to a Greek meaning "Manly"....which is "Fearúil" in Irish, but I don't know that I'd like my daughter to be named "manly" in Irish, english -or- Greek...

If she likes it so much, why change it? Is it a family name she's trying to preserve?

I have seen the name Andrea "translated" as Aindréa,but this could be a spurious change to apply pronunciation as Gaeilge to the name and use the language's spelling convention.

ANDREA would be pronounced ANN-DRAH as gaeilge.

The name Andrea would not be a traditional female name in Ireland as far as I know

In response to the original question about the Irish equivalent of Frank, on p 276 of de Bhaldraithe's English-Irish Dictionary I found the following:
"Frank, Pr.n. Frainc m, Fraincín m."
Two other names for which I have seen Irish "equivalents" are Ríobhca for Rachel and Brónach for Dolores.
The trendy Caitlin now popular in the US is assumed to be "Kate+lynn" rather than the Irish name Caitlín (Kathleen) mispronounced. The Welsh name Megan/Meghan is widely assumed to be Irish in the US apparently because of its resemblance to the surname Regan etc.

Whenever I see someone named Caitlin who pronounces it "Kate-Lynn" it never ceases to crack me up. Trashy.

Dia dhaoibh,
Gabhaigí mo leithscéal for a mistake in my earlier post: Ríobhca was used for "Rebecca". I believe I have seen Reitseal used for Rachel (somewhere. If someone has access to a copy of An Bíobla Naofa perhaps they could check that. Another substitution/translation I have come across is Seanchán for Jonathan.

I have always pronounced my name Caitlín and always corrected anyone who tries to pronounce it kate-lynn!!

Antaine - I think she is intending to name her daughter after her Grandfather who was Andrew, who died on the day she discovered she was pregnant. However the doctor only guessed it was a girl so we could end up with an Aindréas yet. Thanks for all your help!

no problem...that makes more sense

On the subject of Caitlin, My stepsister is named Katelyn, pronounced as it looks Kate Lyn, so there is no Irish pronounciation corruption going on in my house. :) except for my own when I get words shamefully wrong. I always feel glad that when her parents chose the name they spelled it "correctly rather than messing up the Irish. Note that they did it only because they liked this spelling and not for the reasons that I'd do it.

Beir bua agus beannacht

If you want an Irish spelling of "Katelyn" consistent with Irish spelling, it would be more appropriately rendered as one of:

Caetlan
Caeitlin
Céitlin
Céatlan

I think the first one (i.e. with all broad consonants) would be most fiting.

It seems to me that most of the names popular in the US today really don't have good Irish equivalents so why try to invent names? Why not follow the Welsh example and recycle the old traditional names? It would be preferrable to adopt an actual Irish Gaelic name than to engage in coining new names.

I think that coining new spellings to aproximate the sound of one's name is just fine, except for me of course :), but my case is a rarity to be sure. I like my Irish name very much though and I had people call me Riona whenever it could be done.

I like FearnamBrog's spelling aproximations.

Beir bua agus beannacht

As I introduce friends to Irish, they inevitably ask me what their Irish name would be. I follow a prioritized formula for deciding how to proceed.

First, if their name has an accepted Irish equivalent then that's what we go by Thomas becomes Tomás, John chooses between Eoin and Seán, etc.

Second, if their name does not have an accepted equivalent, then a choice must be made. Either an Irish name or word with the same meaning as the name in question, or the name is spelled phonetically using modern Irish spelling. Whichever of these products is easier on the eyes, ears and pronunciation is selected.

For surnames, those with Irish names are given the gaeilge spelling. Those who do not, can either keep their name as-is, spell it phonetically, or select the surname of their strongest Irish family connection (perhaps their mother's maiden name, or the maiden name of a grandmother).

Ok, you guys, you are doing so good!

What about Amber or Dawn?

Rilee or Hayden?

Kennedy?

Konnor?

Karson?

Thanks in advance if you can.
Mary

Amber
Dawn
Hayden
Karson -must be from Ulster...


Ámbair
Dán
Éden
Carsun/Carsún (on analogy with gársún)

The rest are irish, so you should be able to find them yourself; however the spellings are so crass, it might be hard to even research them:


Kennedy
Connor
Rilee

(Ó) Cinnéide
Cruhoir/Cruhuair???
(Ó) Raghailligh

Thank you. Thought I'd give the grandkids something unique to them.
Mary

Why do Americans try to recreate Irish culture in their own image? It seems like Irish-America in general doesn't even need Ireland? Does this even have to extend to the Irish language?

Scríobh duine gan ainm ():

Why do Americans try to recreate Irish culture in their own image? It seems like Irish-America in general doesn't even need Ireland? Does this even have to extend to the Irish language?

While there's a grain of truth in this assertion, it's a phenomenon which is changing.

In the early part of the 20th century, when the families of many "Irish-Americans" had been there for nearly 100 years and many immigrants' children/grandchildren had climbed the social ladder to acceptance/prominence in society, certain aspects of partially remembered culture (probably from their grandparents' stories) began to be "romanticised". This was some sort of idealised "snapshot" of Irish life in the 1800s, devoid of the miseries & hardships of reality.

These grandchildren dusted off their family tales, put a shine on them, tweaked them to fit their new 20th century American reality, and repopularised them -- set to the tunes of shmaltzy vaudevillian pseudo-Irish ballads. They then started casting off their borrowed Anglo-names as they gave their children what they thought were "authentic" Irish names. So we then suffered a generation of Shawns, Katelyns & Megans.

Low air fares -- and now the internet -- have removed all possible excuses for ignorance. So the trends are beginning to change . . . albeit slowly.

To answer the question posted above -- they recreated that stuff because they had lost it, because their grandparents had purposefully set it all aside to assimilate. And then when it became cool to "disassimilate", the descendants had only fragments of poorly remembered culture upon which to hang their Irish-American hats.

Thankfully, that has begun to change.

In the meantime, my fear is that the prevalence of American culture (complete with the remnants of that pseudo-Irish American version of Irish "culture") via world media will "pollute" the real Irish culture like so much transatlantic backwash.

Some of us are intensely embarassed to be affiliated with a country that has given the world green beer, riverdance, leprechauns, schmaltzy ballads and the Shawn/Katelyn/Megan school of Irish names.

(Message edited by cionaodh on September 21, 2006)

Aontaím leat, a chara.

Aontaím leat chomh maith, ach ar an abhair Riverdnace, taimid (na hEirinnigh) ciontach

quote:

Some of us are intensely embarassed to be affiliated with a country that has given the world green beer, riverdance, leprechauns, schmaltzy ballads and the Shawn/Katelyn/Megan school of Irish names.

I thought the concept (or reality?) of leprechauns originated in Ireland. And green beer? C'mon, once a year we add food coloring for the fun of it -what's the harm in that? And as far as Shawn, Katelyn and Megan names go, I think they're perfectly fine. I'm certain that historically, the Irish themselves have taken foreign names and changed their spellings and there's nothing wrong with that.

So, I'm infinitely proud to be affiliated with a country that celebrates its Irish connection - green beer and all!

quote:

And as far as Shawn, Katelyn and Megan names go, I think they're perfectly fine. I'm certain that historically, the Irish themselves have taken foreign names and changed their spellings and there's nothing wrong with that.

Writing "Shawn" in the place of "Seán" is about as cringeworthy as writing "Hayzoose" instead of "Jesus".

I think it's a shame, and the height of rudeness to critize someone's name, whether it's Shawn or whatever. Someone's name is very personal to them - it's a part of them. I feel sorry for all the people, some who may be members here, who have to incur the insults towards their first names.

Lately, It's been in vogue here on this forum to trash certain first names - I think it should stop.

A Mhic Léinn, I don't think anyone would have difficulty with a "translated" name (i.e. Seán = John, not Seán = Shawn). It's the various crude or ignorant attempts at phoneticisation that have us cringing.

And for that, not a one of us blames the bearer of the name, but rather the bestower.

I know that I'll most likely be told that I haven't stock in the matter, but I think that if someone likes their name but wants to spell it in a way that works better in Irish that is just fine and that is their own choice, not to be criticized by others who may not like it. Except of course if they end up making a word that actually means something in Irish ... in that case _please tell them for sure. :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

didn't most of the name forms that are different in different languages begin as phonetic spellings of foreign names?

I know others argue with it vehemently, but to me it seems that altering spelling as one changes languages is a natural thing to do. Many of various languages "traditional" names seem to have begun that way centuries ago.

A Antaine,

Your point is well made. There's a related, ongoing thread on the "correct" spelling of Rebecca. It'll be interesting to see which one will be judged correct and which one will be condemned as crude and ignorant.


To all the self-acclaimed name judges out there:

Cringing is for crybabies and wimps.

A "Shawin";

The name Rebecca doesn't have a native Irish equivalent, so there are options as to how best to Gaelicise it (if at all). Many would argue in favour of not even Gaelicising it.

John does have two acceptable translations for his name in Irish. Why create a third, badly phoneticised version?

Cringing is for crybabies and wimps.

Thanks for sharing that opinion.

I just got done e-mailing a thank-you note to a fellow named Bryan, which is a variant of Brian. I wonder what he would think if someone told him his name is crude and an ignorant attempt at spelling Brian. He'd probably just laugh and think that they're off their rocker. But maybe he would be offended.

I think it's great that there is diversity in name spelling. By the way, "Shawn" is the closest English phonetic version of the Irish Seán. And as Antaine has pointed out above, phonetic versions of names have been going on since time immemorial.

By the way, "Shawn" is the closest English phonetic version of the Irish Seán.

Why phoneticise it? That simply looks like a crude attempt at Irish.

a fellow named Bryan, which is a variant of Brian.

If we follow your logic about phoneticisation, he should be named "Breen".

And while we're at it, how is "Katelyn" a phoneticisation of Caitlín? That simply shows an ignorance of how Irish is pronounced.

uh-oh,
You forgot to Anglicize the rest of your name: "Shawn McLane".

GRMA, a WFM.

And for anyone bothered by my Irish moniker, just call me Seeonayodhuh. It's the up-and-coming baby name in the U.S.

If we follow your logic about phoneticisation, he should be named "Breen".

My logic is that people are entitled to be called however they feel like, and we shouldn't ridicule them nor the "bestowers" of their names.

You forgot to Anglicize the rest of your name: "Shawn McLane".

Would that be McLane or MacLane?

Would that be McLane or MacLane?

Whatever suits you; we're not attempting to look/sound Irish here today.

Gabriel Rosenstock did not feel the need to change his name and it certainly did not hinder him in his mastery of the language. Skip all the symbolism and get on with learning the language.
This thread touched on the Irish-American tendency to introduce their anglicized culture into the Irish culture. Face it, the attraction of Irish, Welsh, Gaelic etc. is the rejection of Anglo-American culture and embracing the alternative culture of our forebearers.
Incidentally Mac Léinn doesn't appear to be a surname but the Irish word for scholar/student. Shawn/Shaun seem like curious relics of the past: Mr Connery has given the name wide currency in the spelling "Sean" albeit without the "A-fada".

quote:

Would that be McLane or MacLane?

"McLane" is the more Anglicized version I think :)

quote:

... just call me Seeonayodhuh. It's the up-and-coming baby name in the U.S.

Hah, I wouldn't be surprised :)

Just kidding around Cionaodh and "Shawn"!

A Sheáin le Cinneadh, an measann tú go bhfuil ceart againn bheith míshásta faoi logainmneacha Béarla más áil linn? "Killaspuglonane" ar Chill Easpag Fhlannáin, cuir i gcás. Ainm nach bhfuil splinc bhrí aige i mBéarla, ainm nár thugadh ar an áit ar chor ar bith ach le teann neamheolais is amaidí. An duine gan mhodh gan mhúineadh é, an measann tú, a chaithfeadh anuas ar a leithéid sin, nó a ligfeadh gur fearr leis dá mbeadh fíor-aistriúchán mar "Flannanschurch" á úsáid?

Shawn TBD, do you think it's OK to be unhappy with anglicised placenames if we choose?

quote:

Shawn TBD, do you think it's OK to be unhappy with anglicised placenames if we choose?

Only if it's OK for me to be happy with them myself.

BTW, I researched your name and it appears to be from the original Hebrew "Avigayil," meaning a father's joy. I hope there aren't people inclined to trash the way you spell your name or blame your parents for choosing to spell it in such a manner.

Thanks Wee Falorie Man for clarifying the correct "Americanization" of my name.

Shaan Maklayne anyone?

Begorrah, massim guroosodge too abeecher meekart, uh vic.

http://www.njop.org/jsAlephbet/sound_main.html

Shaan Maklayne anyone?

Ugguss kaw will uh van kayla?

The one-man spelling reform movement of the 1920s, once known as Seán Ó Caoimh, believed so wholeheartedly in the phoneticisation of Irish that he changed his name to Shán Ó Cuív.

His son, and later his grandson (Éamon Ó Cuív, TD) inherited that unusual surname.

Parents, do be careful what you "bestow" on your children.

quote:

Parents, do be careful what you "bestow" on your children.

Yes, parents - be very, very careful, or else your child could grow up to be a TD like Mr. Cuív!

but, aren't both Seán and Eoin attempts by newly Christianized Gaelic speakers to phoneticize Iohannes? Which was itself a "poor" Latin attempt to phoneticize whatever it was in Aramaic?

This entire thread has become boresome and needs to be closed. It has taken on a very adolescent tone.

Yes, parents - be very, very careful, or else your child could grow up to be a TD

Excellent advice.

Mr Ó Cuiv's books on phonetics is quiet good -well the copy I picked up. It is a sensible book, only I suspect slender s as 'sh' was never going to catch on. Did he have another book where his system was outlined? (That is, I think what I have is not the one that bring ire from people).

Looks like the Arabic form for John is Hanna.

Here's some info from that "infamous," non-peer-reviewed, wiktionary on the origins of John.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/John

Looks like over the millenia, dozens of countries and languages, and literally millions of people have been in on this evil phoneticisation plot. How will we ever put a stop to this? Don't parents know any better???

This entire thread has become boresome

There are other threads if you don't care to read about or discuss name translations/variants. And if the other threads don't suit you, start a new one on some topic you fancy.

Don't parents know any better?

Most obviously don't. That's the "ingorance" I mentioned earlier.

Ignorance comes in two flavours -- willful and unintentional. It's the former which offends me.

quote:

There are other threads if you don't care to read about or discuss name translations/variants.

Well put, Cionaodh. Between all this phoneticization business, we see some other interesting inputs, such as the discussion on Ó Cuiv's works and the origins of Seán and Eoin, which themselves are phoneticizations. I've also have a new pen name, Shawn McLane thanks to this discussion.

Personally, I prefer using names properly spelled in languages I like (Irish heading that list), but I can also understand that while I might name my son Séamus or daughter Siobhán some parents might like the sound but not want to saddle their child with a spelling most english speaking teachers and peers would find mind-bending. Other parents may like the sound, but not even realize that Irish is a language unto itself.

We see it in english with other names as well (Mary instead of Marie, Jean for girls instead of Jeanne).

I've been through school with both a Siobhan (no fada, of Irish extraction) and Shavawn (of Italian parents).

I don't know that it's necessarily "ignorance" as much as it is natural, after all, I'm an Anthony-not-Antonio born to an Alfred-not-Alfredo and Anne-not-Hannah...

I've also have a new pen name, Shawn McLane thanks to this discussion.

Then we're both winners.

For it is Mary, Mary
plain as any name can be,
but with propriety, society will say "Marie".
But it was Mary, Mary
long before the fashions came
and there is something there
that sounds so square,
it's a grand old name.

(Lyrics from "Mary, It's a Grand Old Name)


Well, it's been fun, but I've gotta run.

TGIF!!!

Shavawn

Ouch. That's the cringeworthiest name of the day.

I know. And I must confess, I did cringe. She had it spelled out on one of those chunky gold-and-diamond script necklaces girls were wearing in the mid-90s.

I guess that's how you spell Siobhán in Italian.

=)

I once heard tell of a Korean couple who, several months after coming to the US, had a daughter. As they were both learning english, and much enthralled with their new life in America, they decided to name their baby girl what was in their estimation the most beautiful sounding word in the english language:

"Diarrhea"

Hey, no worse than the "April Showers" who really is a friend of my family (actually, the daughter of a friend of the family). I also went to college with identical twin girls named Snow and Cloud, (their other sibling was named Rain, and while I always assumed Rain was a sister, I may have been mistaken qv. River and Leaf Phoenix).

Names are funny things. For most of us, I believe, the attraction to traditional Irish names is due to our love of the language, and so it does not make sense for us to alter the spellings or pronunciation - for others, the attraction may be entirely different.

Personally, I prefer using names properly spelled in languages I like (Irish heading that list)

Aontaím leat; this is the approach which affords respect to each culture, and broadens the mind as one learns a bit about the cultures which gave us such names. If only more people felt likewise . . .

We needn't purposely mangle the names which come from non-Anglo cultures. English speakers in general (and Yanks in particular) are notorious for their language hubris.

"I might name my son Séamus..."

Please don't...one of the greatest evils of the English conquest

"some parents might like the sound..."

Well if they cant spell the names right, it kinda suggests they cannot hear or pronounce Irish right!

"Snow and Cloud"

I know of a family that had boys called, wait for it, Sinbad, Lancelot, and the best, Salami! I'm not joking. There are more kids, but I dont know the the names

For all the cringers out there, how about the name Patrick? Is this a cringeworthy name, since the correct Irish spelling is Pádraig? And if it is cringeworthy, what should we change it to as we begin this anti-cringeworthy crusade?

wasn't that one originally latin, too...Patricius from "patrician?"

Maybe we should take out all those cringeworthy gaelic phonetics from non-Irish names.

I personally favor the Antaine approach. It is true that in America some parents like Irish names but want teachers at school to be able to pronounce them right during rollcall. My personal opinion is that we should stick with the Irish spellings here but it isn't always my choice.

Some parents like the sound of an Irish name but don't know its Irish so they put their own spin on spelling to suit their situation and liking.

Some parents, as in the Caitlin scenario, like the mispronunciation of an Irish name. In that case, they should make up a spelling that captures the sound they want for the name instead of perpetuating this mispronunciation of the Irish.

Beir bua agus beannacht

On a recent Geico auto insurace commercial there's a woman who's name is spelled Caitlin on the screen but the announcer gives as CAUGHT-linn or KOTT-linn depending on your local pronunciation - instead of the usual American pronunciation of KATE-linn.

Speaking of the Geico gecko or whatever he is, has anyone noticed he has traded in his RP accent for Estuary English?

Sure and I noticed that too! I don't know why that happened, maybe the person who did the "proper" British died :( either that or his fancyness became too expensive as his fame as the Geico gecco went to his head :) It is funny when they replace people on commercials or shows, do they think that we the viewers are too dense to notice ...

That is nice about Caitlin awareness.

Beir bua agus beannacht

originally, the voice was kelsey grammar. gecko's are australian anyway, no?

I don't think geccos are Australian specifically. I think they're from Mexico or central America or some such, though there are tons of them in Hawaii. When I was a little girl my family went with some friends and my older brother was always trying to catch them.

Beir bua agus beannacht

According to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gecko geckos can be found throughout the warm-climate areas of the world

Just for fun, I went to www.googlefight.com and started a boxing match between "Seán" and "Shawn."

Results: For Seán: 178,000,000

For Shawn: 44,500,000

As I expected, Seán won the match, but I'm kind of proud that my pseudonym scored 44 1/2 million! I know I can't stop some folks from cringing when they hear names like "Shawn," but does scoring 44 1/2 million make Shawn a legitimate anglicization? And if not, what is the minimum score required to be considered a legitimate anglicization?

I also tried Sean (fada-less) versus Shawn, and Sean (fada-less) scored 183,000,000. I'm wondering if that means there are only 5 million "Seáns" (with fada).

http://www.googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=shawn&word2=shaun

sean = old!

I think though that google strips out accents when searching to avoid technology problems, i.e. seán matches seán and sean.

http://www.google.ie/search?sourceid=navclient&hl=en-GB&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLJ,GGLJ:2 006-39,GGLJ:en-GB&q=se%c3%a1n

My name is Sarah, but in school I'm known as 'Sorcha' (I go to an all Irish school)

Clear a few things up-Sinéad is Jane

Somone said thier friends name meant flower? Then her name would be Bláthín. It is an actual name.

A Spiceydragon, fáilte agus tá ainm álainn agat! When we were naming our daughter, it was a toss up between "Sara" and "Mary;" we eventually chose "Mary." I may be in the minority (of one?) here, but I actually enjoy the fact that names are spelled differently, such as Sarah, Sara, and Sorcha. The same goes for Maria, Marie, Mary, etc.

quote:

sean = old!

Sean = first name for men, whether some folks like it or not! I would speculate that out of the 183,000,000 google entries for "Sean," the majority of them are related to the first name "Sean," and not "sean" (old)!

(Exclamation points added for humorous purposes only!)

Its crazy, this thread has been kicking around for nearly 2 months now, I wish my threads lasted that long :)

Beir bua agus beannacht

With all due respect, a fhear an iliomad leasainm, by far the commonest use of Seoinín is as Cionadh gave it to you.

Seáinín as a name would be a male name though.

(fch anseo: http://www.google.ie/search?q=Se%C3%A1in%C3%ADn&sourceid=mozilla-search&start=0& start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:ga-IE:official)

I suspect, since Seán and Sean both match each other in google, a part of the difference in the count is accounted for by sean = old. That was all I was pointing out. It's not quite that simple of course, because the ranking of pages i.e. which turn up first, is different for Seán and Sean. I have never quite understood Google's algorithms. (Not that I have tried very hard...)

---

quote:

I actually enjoy the fact that names are spelled differently, such as Sarah, Sara, and Sorcha. The same goes for Maria, Marie, Mary,

Seconded. As long as you don't mess with mine!

Scríobh Nicole (i bhfad, bhfad ó shin, ach bhí mé ar saoire):

Beth = house in Hebrew (so, Bethel, Bethlehem, Bethany, etc.)

Níor tháinig mé ar aon leagan gaelach.

I found no equivalent.

Any takers?

fear an iliomad leasainm.... hmmm.... that has a nice ring to it, and I've also learned two new Irish words: iliomad (great number, great variety) and leasainm (nickname). I think I might have found a new pseudonym - go raibh maith agat a Aonghuis!

But y'all can call me a mhic if you'd like.

Sure and that is yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'd not known it to be sure, A Mhic Leinn, it didn't sound like tu fein. Why did you pick a name that would irritate some to no end? I sort of wondered if it was you but somehow I didn't think so. Ta bron orm for making such a scene of my own foolish epiphanies.

Beir bua agus beannacht

Scríobh Riona: Why did you pick a name that would irritate some to no end?

I chose the name in defense of those who have such Americanized versions of Irish names. It seems that even some "correct" Irish names themselves are often phoneticized versions of names from other cultures and/or languages. For example, as Antaine has pointed out above, Pádgraig is really from the Latin Patricus. So does that mean we can trash those people who have the name Pádraig? Should I hesitate from choosing Pádraig because it's a phoneticization of Patricus? I don't think so.

If I were a woman, I would probably have chosen Colleen as my new pseuodonym instead of Shawn. It seems to me that Colleen is, first of all a very pretty name, and secondly, an acceptable phoneticization of an Irish name. If it's good enough for the Irish to phoneticize names like Patricus, it should then be good enough for Americans to do likewise with Patrick, Colleen, etc.

So, I think the shoe's on the other foot here. Rather than worrying about irritating some of the name snobs on this forum, shouldn't we concerned with the offense and ridicule that existing members and members-to-be, who have Americanized versions of Irish names, have to incur with some of the rather mean-spirited postings, intentionally or unintentionally, aimed at them?

By the way, my question in the last paragraph above is rhetorical; I already know the answer - just look at the Daltái welcome screen where it's asked for us to keep our postings polite. Slamming someone's name seems to be contrary to this request.

quote:

If I were a woman, I would probably have chosen Colleen as my new pseuodonym instead of Shawn.

If you don't plan on ever speaking Irish, then go ahead, there's a nice sound to it!

If you do plan on speaking Irish, you might want to think twice before calling yourself "Girl".

Shades of "A Boy Named Sue." :)

My sister went to school with two twins named Amon and Corey. They had two brothers named Seamus and Dillon, and a sister with the much less exotic name of Mary.

Why the dislike for the name Seamus above, by the way?

Shades of "A Boy Named Sue."

Seáinín Ó Airgid Abú!

A Shawn/macleinn,

Fair play duit for standing up for the downtrodden.

Beir bua agus beannacht

I had a neighbor who named his dog 'Cat' just to piss people off.

"...c'mere, Cat..."

"woof"

That's pretty funny. We own a small parrot and never got around to giving it a name, so we just call it "Bird." My mother can't get over this.

I tend to refer to her as "Rodan" in honor of the Japanese monster-movie creature, because of her severely bi-polar and sometimes ferociously aggressive personality.

The bird or your mother?