Mac Léinn na Gaeilge asked, on another thread that has grown unwieldly:

quote:

do I need to use an article for a proper noun?

The subject we were discussing was "An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, and how it is that the article is needed.

quote:

For example if I want to say "Long live Maire" it would be "Maire Abú," correct? So, by capitalizing Caighdeán Oifigiúil" am I not using a proper noun?

I had to stop to think about the terminology, a Mhac Léinn na Gaeilge (could I just call you "John" or "Fred"?). So, a proper noun ("ainm dílis") is the name of a person or a thing (i.e., Mac Léinn na Gaeilge, Fred, Éire, Stáit Aontaithe Mheiriceá, The United Nations, An Roinn Oideachais). The article may or may not be an intrinsic part of the proper name. Proper nouns are by convention capitalized in English, but capitalization does not automatically turn a common noun into a proper noun. Consider, for example, that in English we capitalize the names of languages, while in French they don't (il parle français, il a écrit en anglais)... but they're still proper nouns either way, at least as far as I know. And in German all nouns are capitalized.

A definite noun ("ainmfhocal cinnte") is a noun which, in a given context, refers to a specific person or thing. In both English and Irish, putting the article in front automatically makes a noun definite:

an fear - the man

A proper noun ("Tomás", mar shampla) is usually also a definite noun, since we generally have a particular Tomás in mind when we use the name. But I can imagine a context in which a proper name ("Tom") is not a definite noun:

"Oddly enough, the room was full of Toms. All evening long I was talking to one Tom or another, or being introduced a new Tom."

In this context, "Tom" is no more definite than the word "engineer" would be, even though it is a capitalized proper noun.

quote:

An Caighdeán Oifigiúil Abú!

The article here (after all the above digression) is needed because it is, by established usage, an intrinsic part of the name, like "The Bank of England". I suppose we could think of it as a definite noun which has been elevated to the status of a proper noun. Whew. Does any of that help? I'm afraid to reread it.

Great piece, Dennis. I find that the relationship between the definite article and definite nouns is very complex, and hugely interesting, too.

Not every noun (or noun phrase, for that matter) that has a definite article necessarily has a definite reference, and vice versa.

It gets even more interesting in languages that do not have articles at all. A lot of fairly esoteric concerns go into determining if a noun has definite reference pr not, such as its position in the sentence.

GRMA as na focail mholta, Michal.

quote:

Not every noun (or noun phrase, for that matter) that has a definite article necessarily has a definite reference, and vice versa.

An mbeifeá sásta sampla d'ainmfhocal, nó de fhrása, a bhfuil an t-alt ceangailte leis nach bhfuil cinnte a thabhairt dom? Shíl mé nach raibh a leithéid d'ainmhí ann. Tá leisce orm mo bhuataisí a chur orm agus mo chuid líonta a thógáil le ceann acu a ghabháil dom féin!

Tá mé stiúgtha ag an ocras. Cosnaíonn siad deich bpunt an ceann. Bhí na mílte daoine ann. Ba chrua saol an duine roimh theacht an leictreachais. Theastaigh ó m'athairt go rachainn le gairm an tsagairt. Rinne mé staidéar ar an Cheimic.

Ní dóigh liom go bhféadfaí a rá go hionrac go bhfuil tagairt chinnte ag aon cheann díobh seo. Tá siad ann sa Bhéarla chomh maith:

My mother is in the hospital. I heard it on the radio. I know this guy who speaks eleven languages!

(Message edited by mbm on August 04, 2006)

GRMA arís! Is ann don ainmhí sin mar sin! Is léir gur thosaigh tú á mbailiú tamall ó shin, agus go bhfuil a lán acu in captivity agat anois. :-)

Ní hea a Dennis, ní bailitheoir mise. Tá siad amuigh ansin le piocadh ach a fhios a bheith ag an seilgeoir cá bhfuil siad. Fuair mé iad seo go léir díreach anois, tar éis cúpla babhta googlála ar abairtí ar nós "úsáid an ailt" agus "definite article indefinite reference".

Tá roinnt nathanna cinnte ansiúd agat, dar liom:
"saol an duine"
"gairm an tsagairt"

Cathain is ceart an t-alt a úsáid le hainmneacha teangacha agus le hainmneacha ábhair scoile? (Is there anything wrong with my use of "Cathain is ceart"? Should it be "a husáid"?)

Is maith liom Ceimic / Is maith liom an Cheimic?
Is maith liom Fisic / Is maith liom an Fhisic?
Déanaim staidéar ar Cheimic / ar an gCeimic?
Déanaim staidéar ar Fhisic / ar an bhFisic?

Is maith liom Spáinnis / An Spáinnis?
Déanaim staidéar ar Spáinnis / ar an Spáinnis?

One other thing:

In English, when you make the plural of a noun which shouldn't really have a plural, then it's customary to use an apostrophe:

The room was full of Tom's.
I don't care about the if's and but's.
He took all the five's out of the deck of cards.

quote:

In English, when you make the plural of a noun which shouldn't really have a plural, then it's customary to use an apostrophe:

The room was full of Tom's.

Is dócha go bhfuil an ceart agat! Sin riail eile nár fhoghlaim mé riamh i gceart.

quote:

Is maith liom Spáinnis / An Spáinnis?
Déanaim staidéar ar Spáinnis / ar an Spáinnis?

Ceist shuimiúil! Scríobh Gearóid Stockman alt faoi seo sa leabhar Cruinneas Gramadaí agus Corrfhocal Eile (1996), alt dar teideal "Gaeilge vs. An Ghaeilge". Tá fiche rud á ndéanamh agam ag am céanna anois díreach, ach beidh mé sásta cúpla direct quote as an alt sin a thabhairt duit níos déanaí.

Sin é an grocer's apostrophe a thagann idir saothiní an Bhéarla agus codladh na hoíche.

Ar léigh aoinne Eats, Shoots and Leaves?

Is dóigh liom fhéin gur cuma ann nó as an t-alt sna samplaí thuas.

(Message edited by aonghus on August 04, 2006)

Léigh mé é agus thaitin sé liom.
Is brea liom an sampla:
'A woman without her man is nothing' sa leabhar sin.
Tá rogha againn maidir le puctuation anseo:
A woman, without her man, is nothing.
nó
A woman: without her, man is nothing.
☺

Oops. Tóg amach an ':' tar éis an focal 'sampla' thuas ach is fearr liom an sampla le ':' má thuigeann tú mé.☺

Dúirt Aonghus:

quote:

Is dóigh liom fhéin gur cuma ann nó as an t-alt sna samplaí thuas.

Is cuma go minic, ach ní i gcónaí. Déanaim féin an t-idirdhealú seo a leanas:

Béarla = English

ach

An Béarla = The English Language

Uaireanta bheadh ceachtar acu ceart go leor:

I'm learning Spanish. = I'm learning the Spanish language. = Tá mé ag foghlaim Spáinnise. = Tá mé ag foghlaim na Spáinnise.

Irish is alive in that district. = The Irish language is alive in that district. = Tá Gaeilge beo sa cheantar sin. = Tá an Ghaeilge beo sa cheantar sin.

Uaireanta eile, ní bhíonn siad inmhalartach:

Tá Gaeilge aici. = She knows Irish.

Tá an Ghaeilge aici. = She has a (thorough) knowledge of the Irish language.

Bhí sé ag labhairt Gaeilge. = He was speaking Irish.

*Bhí sé ag labhairt na Gaeilge. = ? (An teanga ar fad, ó thús deireadh?? Ní déarfainn é sin.)

Cheannaigh mé leabhar Gaeilge. = I bought an Irish book. (attributive genitive)

Cheannaigh mé leabhar (nó Leabhar?) na Gaeilge. = I bought the book (or Book?) of Irish. (whatever that might be!)

Céard faoi laethanta na seachtaine?
I mBéarla,
On Monday
ach i nGaeilge,
Ar an Luan

quote:

Ar an Luan

Raight. Ní Monday ar leith atá i gceist, ach "on Mondays". (Nó ar cheart dúinn on Monday's a scríobh? -- Níor léigh mé Eats etc. The grocer's apostrophe??)

Tá cluiche anseo http://eatsshootsandleaves.com/ESLquiz.html
ach tá an leabhar http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592400876/103-3068778-1479045?v=glance&n=28315 5 greannmhar agus is fiú é a léamh.

The grocer's apostrophe?? Féach anseo: http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=The+grocer%27s+apostrophe&fr=FP-tab-web-t400&to ggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8
uimhir 1 Flickr: Grocer's Apostrophe

Faoi na laethanta arís:
nuair a táimid ag foghlaim na laethanta agus nuair a deirimid
'An Luan,
An Mháirt' agus araile,
nach ionann é sin agus
'Monday,
Tuesday' etc?

Nuair a deirimid 'Feicfidh mé thú ar an Luan' nach gciallíonn sé an Luan seo chugainn de gnáth cosúil le 'See you on Monday'? Tuigim gur féidir brí eile a bheith ann freisin. Nach aisteach é sin, Monday agus Mondays?

Thug mé cóip nó dhó den leabhar sin do mo chairde mar bhronntanas. Bain taitneamh as an leabhar sin, má fhaigheann tú é

quote:

Nuair a deirimid 'Feicfidh mé thú ar an Luan' nach gciallíonn sé an Luan seo chugainn de gnáth cosúil le 'See you on Monday'?

Cloisim/feicim é sin go minic leis an gciall sin. Ní mar sin deirim féin é, áfach:

Feicfidh mé Dé Luain thú. = I'll see you on Monday.

Feiceann muid a chéile ar an Luan i gcónaí. = We always see each other on Mondays (or: on the Monday, más Béarla na hÉireann atá uait.)

Níl a fhios agam an bhfuil rud ar bith ag na Bráithre Críostaí ar an ábhar seo.

A, dá mbeadh rud éigin scríofa ag na Deirfiúracha Págánaithe (Spelling help needed here led’ thoil), bheadh áthas ormsa. Meas tú an dtarlóidh sé ariamh? Maidir leis na Bráithre Críostaí, bhí aithne agam ar Chaoimhe agus níor thaitin an méid a tharla di liom:
http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=977&viewby=date B’fhearr liom stíl difriúil, dá mbeadh sé le fáil, sa leabhar agus sa saol.. Fussy, aren’t I?

Níl an abairt sin nádúrtha dom fós. B’fhearr liom ‘amn’t I?’ Á bhuel. Athríonn teangachaí agus níl neart agam air.

Ceapaim gur thaitin stíl Eat, Shoots and Leaves liom mar tá difríocht idir an chaoi an labhraíonn agus a scríobhann fir agus mná. Taitníonn an ábhar sin liom.

‘Bhfuil níos mó mná ag scríobh i nGaeilge na laethanta seo? Tá súil agam go bhfuil. Feicim níos mó mná ar Daltaí na laethanta seo agus cuireann sé áthas orm.

Thaitin do fhreagra ar ‘Moladh agus buíochas (agus baochas fiú) do Chaoimhín’ liom ach rachaidh mé ar ais agus gabhfaidh mé buíochas leis i gceart ar fhaitíos go bhfuil sé ag fáil neirbhíseach arís.

Déarfaidh an págánach seo oíche mhaith libh. D'éirigh le mo chairde sa chomórtas agus bhí mé ag caint le mo mhac i Washington ar an nguthán agus tá chuile short ceart anseo. B'fhéidir go bhfoghlaimeoidh mé níos mó anseo amárach. Tá mé tuirseach arís agus b'fhearr an chaint a coinneáil ar 'Proper names / definite nouns' is dóigh. Gabh mo leithscéal agus ar ais ag an ngraiméar,
Codladh sámh is brionglóid mhaith,

Seo mar a d'fhoghlaim mé é agus mé ar scoil:

Rachaidh mé Dé Luain.

ach:

Rachaidh mé ar an Luan seo chugainn.

Múineadh dom gurbh an Ghaeilge a bhí ar "Monday" ná "An Luan". Nuair a theastaigh uaim "On Monday" a rá, déarfainn "Dé Luain". Ach, nuair nach do "this Monday" a bhí mé ag tagairt, ba cheart dom "ar an Luan" a rá. (Ceapaim gur sin an chaoi ina oibríonn sé... ?)

An bhfuil na haistriúcháin seo a leanas i gceart?

I saw him on Monday after school.
Chonaic mé Dé Luain é tar éis scoile.

I saw him on Monday's after school.
D'fheiceadh mé ar an Luan é tar éis scoile.

quote:

An bhfuil na haistriúcháin seo a leanas i gceart?

Is dóigh liom é, cé gur fearr liom "d'fheicinn".

Is dóigh go mbeadh an píosa seo suimiúil agaibh. Fuair mé sa ngramadach le Lars é. Seo é an chéad phointe ina raibh sé ag plé úsáid an ailt sa nGaeilge.

quote:

The article appears also with previously unmentioned definite nouns (in German mostly indefinite articles are used here)

Tháinig an fear isteach = "A" man came in.

An bhfaca aonduine agaibh somplacha den úsáid seo?

quote:

An bhfaca aonduine agaibh somplacha den úsáid seo?

Feictear sa tSean-Ghaeilge é. Seo sliocht as Sengoídelc: Old Irish for Beginners:

In narrative texts the definite article is sometimes used to introduce new, hitherto unknown characters, where speakers of English and German would put an indefinite article, e.g. co·n-accai in fer ocond fhulacht i mmedón ind fheda 'he saw a man at the cooking-pit in the middle of the forest'.

Cloisimid rud éigin mar sin i scéalta grinn i mBéarla, ach le "this" in áit "the":

"This man walked into a bar with a duck on a leash..." in áit "A man walked into a bar....

Thug mé súil ar chúpla sean-scéal anois díreach agus fuair mé ceann, Ridire na gCleas, a thosaíonn mar seo:

Bhí feilméar ann san san tír agus ní raibh aige acht aon mhac amháin. Tháinig sé seo chuige asteach tráthnóna oidhche, agus d'iarr sé lóistín dó féin agus do'n dá-'r-'eug do bhí i n-éinfheacht leis.

Is léir, roimh i bhfad, gurb ionann "sé seo" agus Ridire na gCleas.

A Dennis,

Thanks for reviving this subject. I almost lost touch with it! It's going to take me a long time to wade through and translate all the other interesting responses above, which I look forward to. I see your point about the definite article being present with "Caighdeán Oifigiúil," and will continue to use it with this proper noun, which I feel would only be "proper."

quote:

I had to stop to think about the terminology, a Mhac Léinn na Gaeilge (could I just call you "John" or "Fred"?)

All I can say is, call me anything you like, just don't call me late for, well you know..... breakfast, lunch or dinner. But seriously, I do like the name "Mac Léinn na Gaeilge," but if you would like to use a shorter version, I would be all in favor of it.

An timpeall chun na hoibre,
agus an cóngar chun bídh?

Ní haon dea nós sin do aos léinn!