In the thread "Native Speakers?" several times the dropping of words or changing of them for the sake of making the language easier to learn was brought up.

Of course this is something no one wishes for, but let us look at it from another point of veiw: How many peole have started Irish, then backed away because of the sheer complexity of the language? What if, for the basic survival of the language, words must must be "sacraficed" for the monoglots?

I, personally, am not in favor of dropping words, changing them, etc. But if we want to prevent this change, we must be able to see both sides of the story.

It'll happen whether we want it to or not.

Diversity within a dying(?) language is probably a lot like genetic diversity in a species that comes close to extinction: as fewer and fewer native speakers (or surviving animals) exist, the vocabulary/grammar (or DNA diversity) shrinks.

When the language (or species) starts to come back, then presumably over a very long period of time the diversity will come back--naturally, not through some official government agency.

IMHO, of course. :-)

i agree. we may see things like the dropping of gender develop as most learners of irish are native english speakers and thus have the biggest impact on the revival.

given how learners outnumber the native speakers so massively, a bit of that may be a necessary evil if the language is to be saved

Are native speakers very particular on gender?
How can they have any influence on the dropping of it?

Are native speakers very particular on gender?
How can they have any influence on the dropping of it?

i mean the learners. gender has a tendency to confuse some natively english speaking students. a good number have a tendency to simply treat everything as masculine since they don't know the genders of the words. as learners of that background begin to outnumber the native irish speakers practices such as that may become common practice and result in irish losing its genders like english has.

It's a great pity if words are lost; I don't think it's necessary at all, or that learners (past a certain level, anyway) would really be in favor of it. In fact, that's one of the things that frustrates me most about my current level of Irish: I'm forever finding that I know *one* word for something, but not three or four synonyms as I would in English. As a result I can make myself understood (in writing, at least) but it's a pale shadow of the way I think, and of the way I'd like to speak.

The biggest change I'd like to see made for learners' sake is in its grammatical presentation, not in the language itself: abolish the declension system. Five declensions makes perfect sense for Latin, but Irish isn't Latin and never was. Knowing which declension an Irish noun belongs to only tells you how to form the genitive singular; for plurals (which are what I find I have more trouble with anyway), you're still on your own.

Better, I think, to get a bunch of representative nouns drilled into you -- genitives, plurals and all -- and then when a noun ending in "-lann" comes up, simply to treat it like the other nouns you know that end in "-lann." No need to lump it together with the likes of "coill" and "obair" into some amorphous blob of nounry called the "second declension!"

To be honest, the idea that learners may shape a language's future terrifies me. It's bad enough that I make so many mistakes and oversimplifications myself; I shudder to think that I might actually be helping obliterate the correct forms by doing so.

Abigail

Abigail,

I know that teachingg Irish as a case language may not be particularly helpful for the learner, but I don't think the case system is just an attempt to make Irish like Latin. Latin was never Irish, but both have a case system which has been inherited from Proto-Indo-European, which originally had 8 cases. Having said that, the Irish declensions don't seem to work as well as the Latin ones.

You could argue that the current division of words into 5 does not show the correct division of words. What I mean is the fact that the 3rd, 4th and 5th declensions are nearly all strong plurals makes sesnse, but I would have thought the 1st declension weak plurals and the 1st declension strong plurals were sufficiently distinct to be classed separately. Think of it more like: 1a, 1b, 2a, 2b, 3, 4 and 5.

Of course it is a good idea to learn one prototype word in -lann and make that your model for all lann words. But that way won't you have even more classes of words, as the number of possible plurals exceeds five, so you will end up with dozens of prototype words to learn? By splitting the 2nd conjugation into 2a and 2b, dialann is 2b - 2nd, weak. So dialann is no different from fuinneog.

I wonder what the historical reason is why the Irish declensions seem more arbitrary than the Latin ones. It must have something to do with the historical evolution, and possibly the selection of noun plurals (in some cases the standard had to choose between possible weak and strong plurals, eg fóin vs. fónanna).

Abigail,
I hadn't seen you here before so I want to say Tá fáilte mór romhat if you're new to Daltaí. And if you're not new here Go raibh maith agat agus fáilte ar ais. You're are a wonderful asset here and I think I'm going to really enjoy everything you write here. I have so far.

I really like the idea.

Instead of messing with "Is mise Róman", it is so much better to say "Tá mé Róman" or even "Bí mé Róman" (for the clarity of meaning). The next step - is to change this unusual obnoxious word - order. So we go - "Mé bí Róman". And then studying this Hiberno-Eubonics becomes so much fun!

Bail Dia ort in your pursuit - Ní áil liom an toraigh deiridh a feiceáil!

Could someone please explain to me these declensions and "strong" or "weak" plurals?

And what's the difference between Bí and Tá?

A Róman, as unnecessary as that grammar may seem, it's part of what makes Irish so much more amazing and unique than any other language. We shouldn't try to throw in English attributes for the sake of simplification. There's a reason the language is the way it is.

Odwyer - you missed irony in my post.

My last sentence (à Gaelainn) was - I don't wish to see the final result of your pursuit.

The declensions are really not difficult. I made a small table which will almost never let you down.

1 declension - almost all masculine words ending in broad consonant fit here. For genetive and plural - make the last consonant slender.

e.g. bád -> báid (both genetive and plural)
cat -> cait

some words have "issues", but there very few of them -
fear -> fir (not feir, like you might expected)
mac -> mic

Words ending in -ch are a little bit special, as the slender form of them ends in -igh (not -ich as expected)

Éireannach -> Éireannaigh
Meiriceánach -> Meiriceánaigh
bacach -> bacaigh

As you noted, words above are people's denominations, with things genetive is the same, but plural is -aí

So you have:

éadach -> éadaigh (genetive), éadaí (plural)

Again some words have small -t- put inside in plural:
aonach -> aonaigh, aontaí.

These, last ones are rather very exception.

So to sum up - masculine words with a broad consonant - make it slender in both genetive and plural. And watch out for words ending -ach, as they change to -aigh (genetive) and -aigh/-aí (plural).

2 declension - almost only feminine nouns (so knowing gender comes handy for declination). This group includes almost all monosyllabic feminine words and very few polisyllabic words

In genetive you make last consonante slender (if it was broad) and append -e. For plural you add -a (if broad consonant), or -eanna/-í if slender.

So you have:

lámh -> láimhe, lámha
áit -> áite, áiteanna
argóint -> airgóinte, argóintí

How to chose between -eanna and -í? very simple - long words (like argóint) take "short" ending -í, the short ones (like áit) take "long" ending "-eanna".

The second declension has a special dative form (used after all the prepositions) - it is made by dropping -e from genetive. This form is used after word "dhá" as well.

so you have:

lámh -> ar mo láimh
muc -> dhá muic

The story is incomplete without mentioning the 3 masculine words stuck in this declension:

teach -> tighe (or tí according to CO), tigh (dative), tighthe (CO: tithe)
im -> ime, im (dative is the same, as the consonant is already slender), plural might be "imeanna" but you wouldn't need it too often
sliabh -> sléibhe, sléibh, sléibhte

That's it about second declension

3 declension - mostly long both feminine and masculine words with certain endings (like -eoir, -úint, -cht). I hate this declension as I am lazy to learn those by heart.

for genetive - make last consonant broad and append -a

for plural - the same rule - short words take -anna, long ones -aí

múinteoir -> múinteora, múinteoirí
buachaill -> buachalla, buachaillí
ceacht -> ceachta, ceachtanna
dath -> datha, dathanna

Words ending in -int are interesting as they lose -t in genetive (don't ask why):

canúint -> canúna, canúintí

That's the scéal about 3rd declension

4th declension - the easiest one.

All words ending in vowel (almost all) and in -ín fit here.

Genetive - no ending
plural - í

siopa -> siopa, siopaí
cailín -> cailín, cailiní

words ending in -e skip it before -í:

oide -> oide, oidí
oráiste -> oráiste, óráistí

Words ending with vowel with fada have a different ending "-the" in plural.

croí -> croí, croithe (the vowel gets shortened)
rí -> rí, rithe

Fisrt off, from the beginning I said that I didn't want the language to be changed. It IS NOT my pursuit! Secondly, thnaks very much for the chart, it's quite helpful. I apologize for misunderstanding your post, it was an honest mistake. Sometimes it's hard to see irony on boards because you can't hear/see the person's tone or expressions.

5th declension.

In my own opinion the words traditionally group here have very few common things, almost all of them are irregular in their own way, so it makes sense to learn then individually as there are not many of them.

Sample:

máthair -> máthar, máithreacha
Éire -> Éireann, Érinn (dative)
cara -> carad, caraid, cairde
deirfiúr -> deirféar, deirfír (dative), deirféaracha (my favorite ;-))

What's a genitive?

Odwyer - try google

I did but I thought the only way to show possesion was to put put the possesive after the noun, ex. athair Bríd as Brid's father.

yes yes thats SO helpful roman.


Wikipedia will give you a generallly good description of what a genitive is but in irish, ill give an example

word: cat (= cat )
Genitive: cait (cat's [or] of a cat)
Example: eireaball cait -- (tail of a cat)


or eolas (information) when you say eolais it would mean "of information".. so an example "píosa eolais " a piece of information.

I will say, im no expert on this sort of explanation stuff, so since none of the linguists answered (ROMAN?), then i said id give it a go..

If roman you could define this more clearly please do

same for karhu, who seems to have a good understanding of this kinda explanation.

I will say o'dwyer some words just change completely like fear changes to fir, and "mac" to "mic"

Odwyer, the genitive does show possession, but you do not just place the word after the noun it needs to be in the genitive case, which may or may not be different. Bridget's father: athair Bhríd, with lenition by the way.

If you look in the Christian Brothers' Grammar: you see this example: the man's hat: hata an fhir. Fear has been put in the genitive case and lenited.

There are many other uses of the genitive apart from possession though. Some prepositions, eg chun, towards, take the genitive:

ag guí chun Dé - praying to God

quote:

The declensions are really not difficult. I made a small table which will almost never let you down.

No, I agree they're not... but they're really not very *helpful* either - at least, not nearly as much so as in Latin.

When I first started learning Irish it was without classes, a teacher or a textbook-style teaching aid. I had a dictionary, a grammar, a couple websites and some very patient Internet acquaintances I could ask questions of. So when I found the nouns divided into "five declensions," I memorized the declensions and what endings belong to them, and thought I pretty much had nouns by the tail after that. WRONG!

While I still don't have them by the tail, I find I'm doing a lot better now that I have a modicum of vocabulary and have learned to rely on that. At this point, I find the notion of "which declension" is superfluous, unhelpful and I rarely think about it... so I'm not sure why grammar books ought to continue perpetuating it in its current form. I understand the need for a case structure, and thus for some sort of noun taxonomy, but I just don't see the current declension system as optimal.

I take the view that a particular division into declensions isn't an integral part of a language, but a formal structure we superimpose to help us describe and predict the patterns of that language. (Again, I have no background in linguistics; this is just how it looks from where I sit.) So if a particular structure is too coarse or too fine to be helpful, I don't mind replacing it with another that makes better descriptive sense. Maybe someone who sees more of the big picture would feel differently.

In Latin, saying that arcus is a "masculine noun of the fourth declension" tells you its entire case structure: arcus, arcus, arcui, arcum, arcu, arci, arcus and arcus, arcuum, arcibus, arcus, arcibus, arcibus, arcus in the plural. So it's an exceedingly useful notion to have.

In Irish, knowing which declension a noun belongs to doesn't get you nearly as far (unless, as you say, it's the first.) So it's not such a useful structure, because it's too coarse to capture the observable patterns.

I'd rather have 12 or 15 noun groups -- and sure, let's call them the 15 declensions if we want, it doesn't bother me -- which form a fine enough system to account for observed variations, than a "simpler" 5-group taxonomy that ignores meaningful, classifiable variation.

Abigail

Abigail, Róman's notes on the declensions were far superior to anything in the Christian Brothers' Grammar, because they were simple and easy to remember. I wonder if you junked the 5 declensions, how many noun groups would you need to cover all nouns adequately? 15 might not do it.

Personally I think the Irish declensions are partly complicated by the relationship with lenition and eclipsis, which strictly speaking is nothing to do with the case-system as such. What I mean is that the vocative plural of Bád is actually báda, not bháda, it's only the vocative particle that has to go in front that lenites it to "a bháda".

I sure am glad there are only 2 verb conjugations!! Many European languages have many more!

Aibigal - my experience is that knowing declension is helpful for genitive (if it is not a 5th declension of course!), dative singular is easy, plural as I have shown in predictable.

of course you are left with words like "bailte", "leitreacha", "cleachtaí" which completely unpredictable - but ní fheadar if there are no more than 50 words like that. Some of them are very frequent, admittedly, - athair, deirfiúr, deartháir, cathair.

Btw - can anyone explain why we have to write "deirfiúr" and "deartháir" if the real pronunciation is more like "drifiúr" and "dreatháir"?

Fair enough -- and your way of explaining it is clearer than what I'd seen before.

So when you meet a new noun, do you consciously classify it by declension, or does it just fall into place alongside similar nouns you already know?

Róman, wasn't there a post on this forum a month or so ago about the etymology of deirfiúr and deartháir? It was something that showed that--in earlier forms (Old Irish maybe?)--they looked more analogous to their Indo-European relatives.

If I remember correctly, they are combined versions of words that look more like other Indo-European words.

Deirfiúr < deirbh shiúr ('real sister')
siúr < PIE *swesor (sister)
deartháir < dearbh bhratháir ('real brother')
bratháir < PIE *bhrater (brother)

'Real' because siúr and bratháir today have another meaning.

Abigail,
If you learn a language by reading or listening/talking to people who speak it better than you, you probably hear certain new nouns.
If you hear words such as 'fuinneóige' and 'fuinneóga', in certain contexts and you already know things such as 'bróg-bróige-bróig-bróga...', you can probably conclude that the nominative case of the first word must be Fuinneóg.
As for the plural, sometimes you just have to learn it off by heart, but in most cases words that end in particular consonants have the same pl.ending. So lots of words in 'n' insert a 't' between the stem and the pl.ending -a: cian-cianta, etc.

Of course, it's not a problem for native speakers since they know large numbers of different words and their forms and if they happen to hear a word they've never heard before, they classify it easily.
Slan go fóillín
Daithí

Go raibh maith agat, a Dhaithí, for the brother/sister thing. (PIE means Proto-Indo-European, right? What do the asterisks mean?)

Looking it up in the dictionary, I see that siúr & bráthair mean sister & brother in the religious & kinsperson sense now.

An-suimiúil!

(Message edited by dearg on July 29, 2006)

The asterisks mean that the words have been reconstructed on the base of the related words from the daughter languages of the PIE (the languages which evolved from it). In other words, you can't prove that these words really existed exactly in this form, they are just a linguists' construct.