I've been having alopt of trouble with agus and agam and agat etc. Could some one just tell me the difference between all these forms and clear it up for me once and for all?

GRMA

Agus is a conjunction meaning "and", sometimes written as "is" or " 's". Agam, agat, are forms of the preposition "ag" meaning "at" denoting having or owning something. Tá airgead go leor agam - I have lots of money. Nil airgead ar bith agat. You have no money.

Not quite. The preposition 'ag', used in the sense which you give, means to have something with you - not necessarily that you own it. To own something, you use the preposition "le". Tá teach liom. I have/own a house.

Also, Bhí mé ag m'athair seachtaine. I was with my father last week.

Another use of 'ag' is "by/because of". Bhí an ni an mhadra aige. He washed the dog.

These are the forms of the preposition "ag":

ag - basic form
agam - at me
agat - at you
aige - at him
aici - at her
againn - at us
agaibh - at you (plural)
acu - at them

Basically, the preposition is combined with a person (me, you, she).

Take a look at these pages, too (you probably already have):

http://www.daltai.com/grammar/pp.htm
http://www.daltai.com/grammar/ppsam.htm

Aw, maith thú, a Aaroin. Sin, cén fáth nach gchuimhne liom iad sin?

I disagree somewhat, a Mhaidhc.

Tá teach liom	A house accompanies me
Is liom teach	I own a house
Tá teach agam	I have a house

On the washed dog, I fear you are barking up the wrong basin:

Bhí sé ag ní an madra

he was washing the dog

"ag" is versatile:

---

ag [réamhfhocal]
san ionad nó ar an ócáid (ag an doras, ag an damhsa); foinse (chuala mé agat féin é); i dtuairim (tá sé ina fhear uasal acu); i seilbh (is agat is fearr é); i bpáirt le (tá comharsana maithe againn); ag freastal ar (bhí an dochtúir aici); ag tagairt do thréithe nó staid nó eolas nó scil nó mothú nó imeachtaí nó dualgas nó fiacha nó buntáiste nó am nó faill agus araile (bíodh ciall agaibh; bhí saol breá againn, tá léann acu, dá mbeadh snámh aige, tá cion aici air, bhí cluiche maith againn, tá an obair le déanamh agam, bhí airgead agam air, tá tosach agat orm, dá mbeadh bliain eile againn); le haidiacht (tá sé trom agat, ba mhaith againn é); le hainm briathartha (ag ithe, ag ól, ag díol, ag caint).

The last is with a verbal noun:

Bhí mé ag ól tae inné.

Bhí mé ag m'athair an tseachtain seo caite.

"I was with my father last week."

quote:

Bhí an ní an mhadra aige.

Gan an chéad alt ar a laghad, mara miste leat mé a bheith do do cheartú. Ach b’aisteach an abairt seo ar aon chaoi. Arbh fhéidir go raibh rud eicínt mar ”bhí an madadh dhá níochán aige” ar t’intinn?


Le meas, Peter

(Message edited by peter on June 17, 2006)

(Message edited by peter on June 17, 2006)

I really don't want to be rude or anything, but I can't read Gaelic! Sorry.

Grma, a Aonghuis for the corrections. I seem to have the idioms backwards.

And why is there so much disagreement over such a simploe thing as the different forms of "ag"?

O'Dwyer, there is not disagrement. It is simply that "ag" is not that simple:

ag [réamhfhocal]

san ionad nó ar an ócáid (ag an doras ag an damhsa)	in a place (at the door) or occasion (at the dance)
foinse (chuala mé agat féin é)	a source (I heard it from you)
i dtuairim (tá sé ina fhear uasal acu)	in the opinion of (they consider him a noble man)
i seilbh (is agat is fearr é)	in possesion (it is best you have it)
i bpáirt le (tá comharsana maithe againn)	In part with (we have good neighbours)
ag freastal ar (bhí an dochtúir aici)	In attendance on (the doctor came to her)
ag tagairt do thréithe nó staid nó eolas nó scil nó mothú nó imeachtaí nó dualgas nó fiacha nó buntáiste nó am nó faill agus araile	referring to a quality or condition or knowledge or skill or feeling or event or duty or debt or advantage or time or opportunity etc.
bíodh ciall agaibh	have sense
bhí saol breá againn	we had a great life
tá léann acu	they have learning
dá mbeadh snámh aige	if he were able to swim
tá cion aici air	she has fondness for him
bhí cluiche maith againn	we had a good game
tá an obair le déanamh agam	i have work to do
bhí airgead agam air	I have but money on it
tá tosach agat orm	you have prior rights to me
dá mbeadh bliain eile againn	If we had another year
le haidiacht (tá sé trom agat; ba mhaith againn é)	with an adjective (It is heavy for you; if would be good for us
le hainm briathartha (ag ithe ag ól ag díol ag caint)	with a verbal noun eating drinking selling talking

Maybe in a nutshell, although it's a beginner's nutshell,
"ag" can be seen to serve, besides others, the following functions in English:

1. The straightforward meaning of "at." That is, someone or something is "at" someplace.

a. Tá mé ag an doras = I am at the door (GRMA a Aonghuis)

2. Possessing something or an ability to do something.

Examples:

a. Possessing: Tá madra agam = I have a dog
This is an example of where the personal pronoun
form of "ag" is being used (agam = at me)

b. Ability: Tá Gaeigle agam = I know Irish.

3. Preceding the verbal noun. Literally, "at" doing something.

a. Bhí sé ag ní an madra = He was (at) washing the dog. (GRMA a Aonghuis).

So, I think that your question, O'Dywer, is a very good one, because in your initial posting above, you're asking about three words that appear to have some connection but, as you asked, what's the difference? I think you'll want to take "agus" by itself and just remember that it stands for "and" in English.

The other two, words, agam and agat, as has already been pointed out above, are the forms of the personal pronoun for "at me" and "at you," with "at" having various meanings such as literally "at," having ability, or preceding a verbal known like "washing."

Welcome to the world of Irish prepositions! "ag" is probably one of the most widely encountered prepositions in Irish, but there are quite a few others and they all have their personal forms like "at me," "at she.", etc.

quote:

It is simply that "ag" is not that simple:

Odwyer, as I understand it, prepositions are not that simple in most languages. An analogy can be made with the English word "on". Imagine trying to explain "on" to someone learning English:

For example:

Why do we say:

on the train

instead of

with the train
in the train

Of course, someone could be on top of the train, in which case they are still on the train, but it means something different than saying "I'm on the train." Someone could be on the train, but not in the train... but they are still on the train.

Was the train you were on on time?

Turn the light on and read with your glasses on... your glasses are on the book. What was the book on? (meaning about)

Trying to explain "ag" is like trying to explain "on". Although with "ag" the fact that it's also used to show possession:

tá léann acu = they have learning = there is learning at them

Makes it even more complicated.

(Message edited by aaron on June 19, 2006)

quote:

prepositions are not that simple in most languages

Is fíor duit! And Irish makes intense use of prepositions. Instead of I love you (pronoun + verb + pronoun), Irish says Tá grá agam duit (verb of being + noun + preposition-pronoun + preposition-pronoun): is + love + at-me + for-you.

GRMA everyone!!!
Lit. translation of GRMA? = Have good at you

A Dennis,
Why would it be "at me" if the love is being given to someone else?

I think it's closer to "That it may be well/good at/upon you"

For an introduction to Irish prepositional pronouns, visit this website's Grammar section at:

http://www.daltai.com/grammar/ppsam.htm

I did a couple times before this.

Until Dennis gets a chance to respond, here's my take of O'Dwyer's question:

quote:

Why would it be "at me" if the love is being given to someone else?

The "at me" is the part that means "I have." In other words, "I have love for you."

GRMA, a Mhic Léinn. Sin agat é, O'D. That's it exactly.

sin agat é = that [is] at-you it = There you have it.

This "at me" business is one of the reasons I really dislike word for word translation!


I think it gets in the way.

>> I really dislike word for word translation!

- Tuigim duit a Aonghuis ach is iontach mar a thabharfaidh an foghlaimeoir taitneamh don chineál aistíle sin, gur aistíl leis-sean é, bíodh nárbh aistíl leis an gcainteoir/an reacaire an nath cainte céanna:

Chaith mé súil thar mo leiceann - 'I threw an eye over my half-head' in áit 'I looked over my shoulder'.

Ach uair amháin agus an "at me" acu, cuireann sé mearbhall orthu nuair a bhíonn "ag" ag feidhmiú ar dhóigh eile.

Agus ar ndóigh, is an nós seo is cionsiocair le "May the road rise with you" agus bruscar mar é.

Sea, is fíor duit, 'go n-éirí an bóthar leat', nath nach gciallaíonn 'may the road rise with you', ach a chiallaíonn bon voyage.
'Go n-éirí an scrúdú leat' - good luck in the exam(s).

>> I think it gets in the way.

- B'fhéidir 'eventually' a chur leis. Is féidir leis an gcleachtas aistrithe focal ar fhocal tuisle a bhaint as an duine ag an deireadh thiar, ach mar chaitheamh aimsire ag an tús, d'fhéadfadh sé duine a spreagadh chun foghlama.

Léas ceann ar maidin (i seanleabhar dúlra) bunaithe ar chamadh na Gaeilge:
Casúr ar urlár > a fresh turn on a fresh center!

Agus cá bhfágfaimis Liam Dall Ó hIfearnáin a tháinig aduaidh chuig crann, a rug ar iora rua ann agus a thug leis ina phóca é. Dúirt sé le comhluadar a bhí roimhe nuair a cheistíodar é faoin aird a dtáinig sé:
"Do ghabhas anoir aniar inné, agus níor thug mé aon choiscéim ach aduaidh"! (Ó hÓgáin, D., 1991, 365-366)

Is dócha gurbh é an t-imeartas:
= do ghabhas an iora i ndair inné, agus níor ....
nó:
= do ghabhas in iora i ndair inné, agus níor .....

(Bhí 'iora'/'iara' baininsneach aige)

Níl dada cearr leis mar imeartas focail, agus bainim an-spraoi as a léithéidí.

Ach mar gleas foghlama, táim go mór in amhras faoi!

Scriobh Aonghus:

This "at me" business is one of the reasons I really dislike word for word translation! [end quote]

dislike: to regard with aversion.

really dislike: to really regard with aversion

really dislike: to really, really regard with aversion

really dislike: to really, really, really regard with aversion.

Just a little comic relief, that's all! But I did have fun figuring out how to get bold and italics to work at the same time!

Since this thread seems to have turned as Gaeilge, I relish the opportunity to try and figure out what's being discussed, and I'm still working on it. I wonder how many others share my appreciation.

But to address the word-for-word translation business: I thought that Dennis' approach in describing "agam" as "at me" was excellent for a beginner like me. My dictionaries also indicate that "ag" means "at." I had an interesting discussion with my older son the other day about how we humans memorize things, and we started talking about memory aids. His point was that once we memorize something, the memory aid has served its purpose and we can dispense with it. So, I couldn't help thinking of this "word-for-word business" in the same light. That is, if thinking of "agam" as "at me" helps in memorizing that it can stand, amongst other things, for "I have," it seems to me that it's a valid memory aid. Of course, "ag" and "agam" can stand for many other things, but maybe it's a matter of one "ag" at a time. :)

My aversion is

a) because of I have seen people struggle with other meanings having internalised a single definition.

b) because of picturesque word for word translations which [insert choice of expletive] the language.

Your aversion is understandable when word for word translation is used to make the language seem colorful and twee. Hiberno-English, which is largely based on word for word translation from Irish can seem just that in today's context: colorful and quaint and irrelevant.

Nuair a chloiseann muid "tá cúig euro agam ort", tuigeann muid go bhfuil fiach ann, go bhfuil €5 i gceist, agus mar sin de. Ach níl foghlaimeoir fásta ar bith ann nach gcloisfidh "five euro are at me on you" ar dtús, nó, má tá sé níos líofa, "I have five euro on you." Beidh an chiall "focal ar fhocal" agus an chiall cheart "you owe me five euro" ina intinn aige san am céanna, go ceann tamaill ar an laghad.

Feictear dom gur saghas sanasaíochta atá san abairt "X is at me on you", cosúil leis an an "half story" atá taobh thiar den fhocal a chiallaíonn "excuse" i nGaeilge. Rudaí suimiúla iad seo, possibly mnemonic devices, but nothing to get bogged down in.

I really like the word for word translations. There are two sides, of course.

1. It can get confusing as the case has been here.

2. But that confusion goes away when properly explained. You cannot understand a language if you are only given a sort of English equivalent. If people learn that way, then they can never learn sentence structure and will be unable to form their own sentences.

Word for word is a must for properly understanding (and learning!) any language.

Odwyer is right about being able to form sentence structures. If you don't understand how the parts of the language work, as you see in word for word translations then you can't make your own complex ideas into speech in that language.

And I like Hyberno-English.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

quote:

Word for word is a must for properly understanding (and learning!) any language.

Aontaím leis. But I think that below a certain age, which is somewhere around 11 to 12, children are immersed in and learn to speak their native language(s) without having to consciously understand word structure. I think it's only after that age that we need this "word for word business" so that, as Riona says, we can make our "own complex ideas into speech in that language." The only exception that I can envision is where someone is completely immersed in the language, thereby given the opportunity to regain the subconscious learning mechanism(s) present in children.

FRC, especially with my attempt at "Student of Prepositions" in Irish. :)

Confounded lucky little varments, those kids who can just soak it up like a sponge, sure and they aren't even old enough to appreciate how fortunate they are. And it would be grand if there was such a place as whare one would be completely immersed in Irish without a lick of English around. Togair me. (I wish) could someone tell me if I'm right there or what I can do to make it so.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

Scríobh Riona,

quote:

what I can do to make it so.

A Riona, a chara,

Caithfidh tú imeacht go dti an Ghaeltacht....anois! :)

FRC - go raibh míle maith agaibh.

a chara,

Go raibh maith agat as an comhairle. In that bit of my message that you quoted I was actually meaning to ask if I was right in writing togair me and if I wasn't what could I do to make it so, as in what must I do to make my writing of it correct. But good advice from you anyhow. I like your infadicness, your urgency of it.


Beir bua agus beannacht.

Tá brón orm, a Riona.

From An Foclóir http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/ I see that the present tense, 1st person, for "to wish" (togair) is "tograím" (I wish).

Go raibh maith agat a chara.

I'll remember that.

Beir bua agus beannacht.