anybody know why so fundamental a word as Gaelach disobeys the cardinal spelling rule?

My instinct is that 'ae' was originally another vowel that became 'é'.
Not that helps solve the mystery :)

It used to be "gaedhealach" before the Caighdeán mangled it.

but...i thought the caighdeán was supposed to *fix* inconsistencies...

I have to say, though...pre-caighdeán spellings have a flair that the modern ones often lack...

dligheadh

dlí, indeed...


>osna<

Agus "aer", g. "aeir"? Féach:

http://www.ria.ie/projects/fng/aer.html

Nó "traein", g. "traenach"?

Caithfigh go bhfuil míniú níos fearr ná "mangled it" ann, a Chionaidh.

(Message edited by dennis on April 29, 2006)

So, bhí sé beagnach agam mar sin ;) Caithfidh mé a rá gur maith liom an litriú seo, 'Gaedhealach'.

A Dhonncha,

Aontaím le Cionaodh! Try to prove that caighdeán didn't make things complicated in words like:

teach - tighe - tigh (CO: teach - tí - dative not recognised)

léighim - léigheann - léigh (CO: léim (is it "jump"?), léann - léigh)

And my favorite:

dóighim, dóigheann, dhóigh (CO: dóim, dónn (!!!), dhóigh)

Thanks to caighdeán there are some 10 different present tense endings.

Other thing - verbal noun "léaghadh" - 1. had standard ending -adh, as any verb of 1 conjugation 2. could be read by ALL dialects as they pronounce it.

new form "léamh" 1. has irregular ending, adds to "exceptions", although is none 2. Violates those dialects, that don't have any /-v/, /-f/ in this word.

And one the biggest "achievements" - word "inniu". All dialects that pronounce /-v/ in final "-ubh" pronounce the word as if it spelled "inniubh". Yes, even Conamara says it /in`uf/. Double "nn" in this word is NOT supported by all dialects. The same applies to word "inné"/"iné".

Any time spelling is reformed - it should be force for good, not for additional confusion!

I think you are wrong here. It is /ə`N’u/ in CF with a palatalized dental nasal. Peadar Ó Ceannabháin from Carna sings “Rógaire Dubh”, the lyrics goes like that:

‘Tá mo stoca is mo bhróga ag an rógaire dubh, x3
Mo naipicín póca le bliain sa lá inniu’

It sounds like /dy … əN’y/, y stands for /ы/.

‘inné’ /əN’e:/ as well.

Peter

A Pheadair,

I am not wrong. In the book "Irish of Cois Fhairrge" inniu is transcribed as both /iN`u/ AND as /iN`uF/. In your lyrics it is clear that "inniu" is rhymed with dubh, which again is pronounced /duf/.

Anyway classic spelling of those words was "aniogh" and "iné". Maybe for some reason?

quote:

Gaelach disobeys the cardinal spelling rule?

The short answer, Antaine, is that the digraph 'ae' is a well defined exception to that rule. 'Ae' is always treated as a broad vowel:

"Taispeántar cáilíocht an chonsain sa scríbhinn de ghnáth trí na litreacha gutacha atá cóngarach dó. Is iad na gutaí leathana, agus e sa délitir ae, a léiríonn go bhfuil consan in aice leo leathan."

Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, § 14

The long answer, which involves the history of Irish orthography, is a bit more complex!

During my language studies, I have noticed alot of the simpler or more commonly used words in many languages are rule-breakers. This is probably due to their being invented before the rules of the language were. However, this does not seem to be the case with Gaelach.

And why is the chat spelling my name wrong? It keeps putting Odwyer insetead of O'Dwyer, which is my user.

quote:

I have noticed alot of the simpler or more commonly used words in many languages are rule-breakers.

The best example of this in Irish is "agus".

Why is that a rulebreaker? I'm sorry, I don't know much Irish grammar.

I am not wrong. In the book "Irish of Cois Fhairrge" inniu is transcribed as both /iN`u/ AND as /iN`uF/. In your lyrics it is clear that "inniu" is rhymed with dubh, which again is pronounced /duf/.

Who told you that?

It sounds like /dy … əN’y/, y stands for /ы/.

It’s not by chance that I wrote it, don’t you think. Check this out:

http://www.grafxsource.com/MCS/Amhrain.html

there are Peadar’s sound samples there, you need ‘Rógaire dubh’. There is no more than 30 sec.

And, I never heard there happened devoicing of /w/ in Connemara Irish, moreover I tend to trust my ear in the first place.

Anyway classic spelling of those words was "aniogh" and "iné". Maybe for some reason?

As for the history of Irish I’m no maven here, but I saw this:

inné = yesterdy - i ndé = "in a day"
inniu = today - i ndiu = "in a day"

Le meas, Peter

Why is that a rulebreaker? I'm sorry, I don't know much Irish grammar.

It must have been ‘agas’ then ~ Séamus, but now Séamas.

Peter

Oh. Go raibh maith agat.

quote:

Who told you that?

"Irish of Cois Fhairrge"

quote:

moreover I tend to trust my ear in the first place.

And I tend to trust scientific treatises by dialect specialists. Are you sure your ears are as good as of those who make dialect taping-cum-decoding?

Devoicing of /-v/ is VERY typical of Mayo, so it would be utmost strange is no such thing ever happened in Conemara at least sometimes, wouldn't it?

In the song you have given I clearly hear /-v/ in the word "dubh" in the 3rd repetition. We have different ears it seems :))

quote:

inné = yesterdy - i ndé = "in a day"
inniu = today - i ndiu = "in a day"

"in dé" and "in diu" reflect pronunciation of Old Irish. By the time of Middle Irish this words were pronounced "aniogh" and "iné" and this is the speeling you find in Early Modern Irish. By this time Middle Irish guttaral spirant /gh/ has changed to /v/ like in many other one-syllable words, e.g. "ogh" (ubh), "tiugh" (tiubh). So it really doesn't make sense to base current pronunciation debate on Old Irish spelling, if we know for sure that already in Middle Irish pronunciation was different already. There is labial spirant in the word "inniubh" in all dialects that allow for /-v/. Absence in Dún na nGall and (partially) in Conamara is no proof. There all words (like talamh, marbh) nominally ending with labial spirant vocalise it.

So the only adequate spelling should in(n)iubh. The reason I don't like double "n" in this word that double "n" doesn't fit Múscraí pronunciation where all slender /N/ have changed to slender /ng`/, except these 2 words. So this makes me think that there is no /N/ in this word. Dental pronunciation in Conamara may be explained by the fact that from Conamara's point of view those sounds are word-initial /N/ which (if not lenited) are always tense.

/iN`u/ AND /iN`uF/

Did de Bhaldraithe transcribed it EXACTLY as you wrote it?

And I tend to trust scientific treatises by dialect specialists. Are you sure your ears are as good as of those who make dialect taping-cum-decoding?

Absolutely, because if I doubt smth, I can rely on my eyes while viewing different types of spectra, thanks to software required for that (which I have).

Devoicing of /-v/ is VERY typical of Mayo, so it would be utmost strange is no such thing ever happened in Conemara at least sometimes, wouldn't it?

??? Did you hear a Carna man speaking? Isn’t Iorras close enough to Mayo for you, what’s the point in imagining things then?

Yes, devoicing takes place, as I can see, in case of /g g’/ sometimes, e.g. Párraic, ruillic, tháinic, Nollaic, easbac, but carraig, on the other hand. Though one says agad, ionad, asad, tharad. What’s the general rule here, mate?

In the song you have given I clearly hear /-v/ in the word "dubh" in the 3rd repetition. We have different ears it seems :))

And what about ‘inniu’ that is under consideration now? And two other ‘dubh’s? ;)

And couldn’t that be that you hear how he anticipates the /m/ movement? Lot’s of ways of interpreting it.

There is labial spirant in the word "inniubh" in all dialects that allow for /-v/. Absence in Dún na nGall…

100% sure of it? An instance from Pedersen&Louis’ ‘Concise Celtic Grammar’ – if my memory doesn’t fail me completely: ubh /of/ for Donegal. Might happen it also has the final /f/ (that comes from /w/) here.

Dental pronunciation in Conamara may be explained by the fact that from Conamara's point of view those sounds are word-initial /N/ which (if not lenited) are always tense.

The simplest explanation the best. Since it originates from eclipsis, it must be /N’/, for there are no cases of /n’/ out of /d’/ eclipsed.

Le meas, Peter

thoughts aloud:

What gets on my nerves is that one can't write an arrow that is an ordinary tool to show linguistic evolution and sound changings. Because of the html thing. Mmm, I try to get used to it. Really. ;))

wait, whether it was initally agas or not, how is agus breaking a rule? a and u are both broad vowels...

quote:

whether it was initally agas or not, how is agus breaking a rule? a and u are both broad vowels

But I didn't say it was that rule, did I? Irish "agus" (following Old Irish "ocus") has always had a 'u' in the unstressed second syllable. Unstressed 'u' in that position has long been pronounced schwa, probably already in late OI. In all other words, that 'u' has been replaced with 'a': Séamas instead of Séamus, (as Peter mentioned), doras instead of dorus, agus mar sin de. But a decision was taken not to reform "agus", or the closely related word "aguisín". No reason was given, but the I assume it's because "agus" is such an enormously common and familiar word. So instead of the regular agas, we and the CO (Caighdeán Oifigiúil) still have agus as a little outpost of historical irregularity.

quote:

an arrow that is an ordinary tool to show linguistic evolution and sound changings

Nach bhfuil > nó -> ceart go leor?

Tá, ach is minic go bhfeiceann an clár > nó < mar chuid don html cód, agus ní pheinteálann ó am go ham iad. :)

ng>k

An bhfeiceann tú iad? Scríobh mé: n as d, k as g.

Peter

A Pheadair,

Tá mo leabhair i bhFilnius, ach táim féin i gCaunas anois. But couple of things -

what do you mean by Iorras close to Mayo? Mayo dialect consists of Iorras and Tuar Mhic Éadaigh (most probably wrongly spelled - I have always problem with Tourmakeady). So I don't understand your point

Re /iN'uf/ and /iN'u/ - yes this is how he transcribed them. The explanation concerning eclipsis is not valid. Their no such words as "dé", "diu" in Irish now - so you eclipsis proposition immediately runs into trouble. Eclipsed forms don't survive if their is no base form for them to support.

And you can't make to broad conclusion based on dialect. That's why we study different dialects, because there are many different ways to explain something based on one dialect. Múscraí makes a clear distinction between /n'/ and /N'/ - but not in these words. In "Irish of West Muskerry" Ó Cuív didn't have anything to explain because he was basing transcription on "aniogh" and "iné" - so you have regular /n'/.

Still - you didn't answer my question - if there was a clear /N'/ in these words why Middle Irish scribes suddenly dropped double "nn" in these words, while not dropping in words like "bainne", "dinnéar" and so on?

quote:

An bhfeiceann tú iad? Scríobh mé: n as d, k as g.

Ní fheicim an chéad cheann. Tá réiteach ann, áfach, cé go bhfuil sé beagáinín ciotach: cuir na "saigheada" i mbold.

n < d
g > k

what do you mean by Iorras close to Mayo?

Iorras Aithneach aka Carna

/iN'uf/ and /iN'u/ - yes this is how he transcribed them.

It makes no sence then. Since the stress is on the 2nd syllable it must be /@`N'u/. And I'm still curious about /F/ (or /f/) at the end. Though I haven't seen the book. The only way I can check it, is to look 'inniu' up in the 'Morphology' when I'm back in Moscow, for I think the 2 books can't contradict each other, don't you think.

The explanation concerning eclipsis is not valid. Their no such words as "dé", "diu" in Irish now - so you eclipsis proposition immediately runs into trouble. Eclipsed forms don't survive if their is no base form for them to support.

What's 'deara' in faoi ndeara', please? I can think up more examples if you want.

Still - you didn't answer my question - if there was a clear /N'/ in these words why Middle Irish scribes suddenly dropped double "nn" in these words, while not dropping in words like "bainne", "dinnéar" and so on?

1) I'm no maven here. What I gave you was the way the words are pronounced now. The present spelling contradicts the pronunciation found in Connemara in no way.

2) If you force me into making an assumption, well I may have a guess: those scribes might have been of Munster extraction (or Donegal, whatever), no Connemara men, where people have retained the original pronunciation for the words. Just a guess.

Le meas, Peter

n < d

Ab ea? GRMA, Dennis. Ábhairín ciotach, sea.

Peter

quote:

Iorras Aithneach aka Carna

Ní beidh fearg ort - there is other Iorras (without any adjective) as you well know.

quote:

It makes no sence then.

This is the fact of life - natural languages don't make sense at times.

quote:

books can't contradict each other, don't you think.

They can, as morphology book can quote only most frequent form omitting other alternatives.

quote:

What's 'deara' in faoi ndeara', please?

It exists as independent form in the South - I would be utmost surprised if no such form existed in the West. Unfortunately (or luckily), dialects don't care about grammar books and use dependent and independent forms at will.

quote:

those scribes might have been of Munster extraction

So are you suggesting ALL scribes of Middle Irish period have been from Munster??? Nobody literate in both Connacht and Ulster? this is just ridiculuos. And once again - central and eastern Munster dialect DO distinguish /n'/ and /N'/ as they have different reflexes of those sounds. So you imply that 2/3 of Munster have been deaf and nobody could write neither in Connacht and Donegal.

This is the fact of life - natural languages don't make sense at times

He couldn't have written that, and that's all, it has nothing to do with the dialect itself. Once again it is /@`N'u/. The stress falls on the 2nd syllable, i.e. there's no /i/ there, there can't be an /i/. That /@/ becomes deleted when there goes any vowel before it, /i/ can't be deleted in the same way.

It exists as independent form in the South - I would be utmost surprised if no such form existed in the West.

'deara'? I always thought it exists in the expression 'rud a thabhairt faoi deara' (faoi ndeara, in the South, if I'm not mistaken) alone. Looking for confirmation.

So are you suggesting ALL scribes of Middle Irish period have been from Munster???

So once again:
those scribes might have been of Munster extraction (or Donegal, whatever)...

What did I suggest, then?

I'll try to check Wagner's atlas, so to see what's it all about, all those /n'/&/N'/ in these words.

Peter

(Message edited by Peter on May 01, 2006)

quote:

He couldn't have written that

But he has! Or you are accusing me of lying???

quote:

That /@/ becomes deleted when there goes any vowel before it, /i/ can't be deleted in the same way.

You are simply wrong on that point. ALL unstressed vowels are schwa's and the fact if they are i-hued is irrelevant for their suppression. There CANNOT be 2 schwa's in the row in Irish language, neither can schwa stay intact after stressed vowel. So the first vowel of "inné" and "inniubh" gets deleted after any stressed vowel.

Now I'm really confused: What's a schwa? Are all broad u's in Irish pronounced as schwa?

A hypothosis on why Irish is so complicated: Irish is one of the more complicated languages because it developed as a spoken language, which means the focus of the language was not on grammar, but sound. This accounts for Irish being one of the most beautiful languages and the hardest to learn. Irish evolved to sort of glide along through sentences, adding other sounds to help it "slide." When it became written, this "sliding" became a rule and was called eclipsis and lenition. When they tried to write the language down, the result was a bit messey. Long and slender letters and the different combinations of letters making different sounds depending on location within a word is a direct result of the fact thast there were not enough letters in the Roman alphabet to contain the Irish language!

The same is true of Russian: Beautiful language because it developed as spoken until the time of the Greeks. Obviously there were Russians in Russia before then, so in tyhat time, Russian developed into an awesome language.

Why this is not the case with English: English was first spoken by peasant farmers from Germany in England, when in Enland all anyone spoke was French or Norman. But by then, England had discovered letters, and so the language was written down. So now all English gets is "an" before words beginnong with vowels. Not so with Irish, which did not really get written down until St. Patrick came and sort of un-isolated Ireland from the rest of the world and the oalphabet.

There is a country (Sweden, I think???) where one language is spoken (I think Swiss) and one written, which is English. That is because it (Swiss?) is an entirely spoken language, therefore it has no alphabet, so the people use English to write instead.

I hope I did not bore you too much. Please make corrections/dissagrements with my hypothesis as you see fit.

Not a mainstream 'hypothesis' I'd say...

glan as mo mheabhair ag gáire

If any Swiss people should speak English to me in Sweden, I will now know why -- and I will remember I heard it here first. GRMA.

But he has! Or you are accusing me of lying???

You are mistaken and that’s it. I’m not here to accuse anyone of anything. If we were sharing money, and not interest in a language, it would be quite another story :))

p. 214 Gaeilge Chois Fhairrge: an Deilbhíocht, 1977

402. indé ə`N’e: indiu ə`N’u, ə`N’uw

Check out his spelling, btw.


ALL unstressed [short] vowels are schwa's and the fact if they are i-hued is irrelevant for their suppression. There CANNOT be 2 schwa's in the row in Irish language, neither can schwa stay intact after stressed vowel. So the first vowel of "inné" and "inniubh" gets deleted after any stressed vowel.

Exactly. The only thing is, since everywhere I speak about phonology, there is only 1 schwa phoneme, isn’t it? Or you can give me an example of two words that differ through schwa timbre? (and don't tell me you want to discuss archiphonemes here) Thus ‘inniu’, say, and ‘iníon’ (with the 1st syllable stressed) differ you now how, and it is the second one that is written like /in’i:n’/, i.e. with the first /i/, and not ‘inniu’.

Yes, there’s a tradition to write i instead of ə between 2 slender consonants, but not in the position in question.

Namaste

The same is true of Russian: Beautiful language because it developed as spoken until the time of the Greeks. Obviously there were Russians in Russia before then, so in tyhat time, Russian developed into an awesome language.

I'm Russian :))

The last paragraph was the strongest, mate. Absolutely.




A Chionaoidh,

An rud céanna a d'éirigh dhomsa ;)



Le meas, Peter

A Pheadair,

Specially for you I have brought "The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway" - Tomás de Bhaildraithe - to my workplace and I am going to do some shirking in order to close this topic once and for all. If you don't agree with what is stated below - it is not MY problem. Those are only quotes from the book, even if you don't like them.

The word "aniugh" (check out this spelling!) is mentioned 5 times in the book:

p. 15 - par 74. "N`u aniogh"
p. 15 - par 75. "Certain speakers use an i-vowel .. in the words tiugh, aniugh"

p 46. - par 238 "The use of nasalised vowels ... Exx: @'N`u aniugh"

p 90 - par 447 "IU=u, e.g. tiugh t`u, aniugh @'N`u, which have by-forms t`i, @'N`i respectively"

p 101 par 547 " (v) [Final gh] > w in a few monosyllables, e.g. ogh u, tiugh t`u, aniugh N`u have by-forms uw, t`uw, N`uw respectively."

So forms with or without schwa are in free variation. /-w/ are as legitimate as those without /-w/. Yes, I was wrong about devoicing - but there is spirant possible at the end of such words - so I feel vindicated. Spelling "inniubh" is more appropriate for Cois Fhairrge than "inniu" is.

Re "@" - he states on the p 16 "... represents a very short neutral vowel, which on account of its shortness, is more subject to slight variations in quality, under the influence of neighbouring sounds, than are other vowels. The more minute of such variations, which are of no practical value, are not given here"

Later he describes 5 different types of schwas in Cois Fhairrge.

The most interesting and relevant is the first one - "a half-close spread central vowel which occurs (i) initially before a palatal (ii) in final open position, preceded by palatal.." This is exactly that type of schwa which is called "i-hued" in other dialect descriptions and is denoted "i". So I don't want to argue about how to call this sound or how to denote it - de Bhaldraithe didn't agree with Ó Cuív on this - but it is "different" schwa from a classical one and that's why I denoted it "i".

The only point: the variation of schwa and non-schwa forms are not free (non-schwa: (i) after a pause (ii) after a vowel), I agree with everything else. Since it miraculously doesn't conradict with my messages.

As for 'i-hued' schwa: his examples (that of inniu) contradict the first item. I would like to look more deeply into the topic. Only then I'll resume its discussing.



Just to sum it up

What I wanted to show is that this assumption

All dialects that pronounce /-v/ in final "-ubh" pronounce the word as if it spelled "inniubh". Yes, even Conamara says it /in`uf/. Double "nn" in this word is NOT supported by all dialects. The same applies to word "inné"/"iné".

is incorrect in regard to Connemara Irish. Why? You have presented the counterexamples yourself. I think we have exhausted the topic.


Peter

Does changing /f/ for /w/ change anything? I was wrong about devoicing, but the point was about /-v/! There is no way you can derive /N`uw/ from spelling "inniu". THIS was my point!

quote:

is incorrect in regard to Connemara Irish

Для тех кто в танке:

\quote {p. 101 par 547 " (v) [Final gh] > w in a few monosyllables, e.g. ogh u, tiugh t`u, aniugh N`u have by-forms uw, t`uw, N`uw respectively." }

You were proving that /-w/ is impossible in such words. And then give examples yourself with /-w/

You were proving that /-w/ is impossible in such words.

No, never have I said that. My point was that (i) as a rule no one pronounces /n'/ in this word; (ii) what you gave was in no way the only variant for the word in Connemara Irish; (ii) the most common pronunciation for the word is /ə`N’u/; (iv) then (for I first turned the blind eye to it) the /i/ is out of place here.

These are the theses I came out with. One after another you proved that I'm right:

(i), (ii) In the book "Irish of Cois Fhairrge" inniu is transcribed as both /iN`u/ AND as /iN`uF/.

(iii) aniugh @'N`u, which has by-forms ..., @'N`i respectively; aniugh N`u have by-forms ..., N`uw respectively

(iv) aniugh @'N`u, @'N`i

Peter

(Message edited by Peter on May 02, 2006)

A Pheadar,

Let's go the beginning. The origin of the whole discussion was caighdeán oifigiúil's spelling of "aniogh". My point was that "inniubh" is much more appropriate. Do you have any counter-arguments to prove otherwise?

Ámhar ort

What's a schwa?

Scríobh Odwyer :
What's a schwa?

An unstressed vowel sound.

The schwa is written as ə

Examples of how it sounds can be found on this website's Grammar section, under Pronunciation Key, at:

http://www.daltai.com/key.htm

Thank you.