According to "Learning Irish", the genitive plural is only used in writing and in "set phrases". Otherwise, the nominative plural is always used. Is this true of other dialects as well?

It is true most of the time in spoken Donegal Irish as well:

rogha na gcailín

seomra na múinteoir

According to "Learning Irish", the genitive plural is only used in writing and in "set phrases". Otherwise, the nominative plural is always used. Is this true of other dialects as well?

That's a feature that all Conamara dialects share and, as you know, Cois Fhairrge Irish belongs there too.

I would also like to know whether the genetive Pl. is used in any living dialect - as a living grammatical form I mean.

Le meas, Peter

It is used obligatory in Munster at least with persons, animals and so on.

It is used obligatory in Munster at least with persons, animals and so on.

Are you sure it is in use NOW? I can agree that it was used 50 years ago (say, in CF according to de Bhaldraithe some forms were still re/asu/nta beo (e.g. hata an bha/do/ra), though now they are said to be extinct (hata an bha/do/ir)). However, I assume the whole thing may be blurred in a way because of the Caighdea/n influence...

Peter

My source is "An Teanga Bheo: Corca Dhuibhne". So I am sure it is in use NOW. And to surprise you even more -dative plural is still used in Oileán Chléire and Múscraí.

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though now they are said to be extinct

Who says they are extinct?

(Message edited by Róman on April 03, 2006)

Who says they are extinct?

The LI, for instance. De Bhaldraithe says the use of the old genetive of the -o/ir / -eoir agent nouns is rather limited. I'm not sure about the "Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chonamara", it seems to me nothing is said there about it (I don't have it at hand now), 7 cloisim lucht Chonamara ag caint ar an radio 7 is minic ata/ foirmeacha caighdea/nacha ar roinnt den ainmfhocla den tri/u/ di/chlaonadh acab (m.sh. -a sa nginideach uatha ag na hainmfhocla ata/ -eacht mar iarmhi/r orthu - beannacht vs. beannachta etc.) The Standard Irish grammar seems then to be a nice trade-off between the highly analitic Connemara speech and some more conservative dialects.

Peter

A Pheadair,

LI is a pure Conamara caint. And there is life beyond Conamara, you know...

I checked "An Teanga Bheo: Gaeilge Chléire" - there is no mentioning of not using of genitive plural. All paterns are givens with plenties of examples. So Cléire+Carbery+Múscraí is by far the most conservative dialect (in grammar I mean) - even more so than Corca Dhuibhne.

p.s. After your advertisement I ordered "An béal bocht" - I hope it is at least half as funny as you described. :))

Ceartúcháin:

ar roinnt de na hainmfhocla den tríú díochlaonadh

And there is life beyond Conamara, you know

There are just a few exapmples of the Nominative instead of the Gen. in the "TB: GC" btw.

After your advertisement I ordered "An béal bocht" - I hope it is at least half as funny as you described.

Good. But I strongly recommend to you to download the Russian version as well.

Cheers

quote:

But I strongly recommend to you to download the Russian version as well.

You mean it is extremely inaccessible?

You mean it is extremely inaccessible?

Do you mean "difficult to understand" or what? Well, if my guess is right, then I'd say it's no easy reading (there's an extract from the original on the irish.ru as well), at least I once had a whack at it and I found it definitely difficult. So, I think you'll have to struggle through.

quote:

So, I think you'll have to struggle through.

That's the point - page by page and voilà - you speak fluently :)))

At the moment I am reading something of the kind: "Nuair a bhíonn Nuala ag crú, bíonn sí ag amhrán. Cuireann sí roinnt bainne sa chuigeann agus deineann sí an t-im. Bíonn tobac uaithi". But you start with something, ná deinir?


(Message edited by Róman on April 05, 2006)

A Róman,
"Nuair a bhíonn Nuala ag crú, bíonn sí ag amhrán. Cuireann sí roinnt bainne sa chuigeann agus deineann sí an t-im. Bíonn tobac uaithi"

isn't it from "An Ghaeilge" by A. Doyle & E. Gussmann, lesson nr 9?

A Pholannaigh,

Cinnte, seo é san.

But you start with something

That's a good point, that's why I'm looking for something written by Connemara authors, I once asked a question somewhere about the audiobooks (aka talking books) recorder by the RTE. Does anyone know where one can purchase them?

And. Is it really that difficult to find Modern Irish classical literature, e.g. Pa/draic O/ Conaire and others? I haven't found Cladai/ Chonamara for instance, litriocht.com, cic.ie, amazon.com all the same...

Peter

That's why a learner of Gaelainn na Mumhan is at natural advantage ;) Plenties of books.

Pé scéal é, can anyone explain because I feel now utmost confused: Is "Peig" and "Peig: A scéal féin" the same book? Why then there is English "Peig" (1936) and "Reflections of an old woman" (1939) quoted? Are those two books? I feel lost now

Nuair a bhíonn Nuala ag crú, bíonn sí ag amhrán. Cuireann sí roinnt bainne sa chuigeann agus deineann sí an t-im. Bíonn tobac uaithi

BTW It just struck me how wonderfully peaceful those texts must be! Have you ever got a proper look at the LI's texts? They are abnormal, it's all about misfortunes, lethal cases, car accidents and bamboozling there...

E.g. the text about Tomás Mór who dies in a stupid car accident when he's out to Mayo for some fishing; his mate is taken to hospital with his legs crushed to nothing... Or the one about a guy who got conned when he tried to sell his car (that he crashed first btw), or about the mate whose house was burgled when he was away in CF (tip-off, I guess). Nice stuff round there, innit?

Another reason to take to Munster Irish ;)

quote:

It just struck me how wonderfully peaceful those texts must be!

quote:

LI's texts? They are abnormal, it's all about misfortunes, lethal cases, car accidents and bamboozling

Now you can appreciate our discussion about language of higher society vs language of simple folks in different light, ain't you?

quote:

Another reason to take to Munster Irish ;)

And there are loads more, beliemme :)))