• ag dul isteach san árasán
• ag dul isteach ina sheomra
• ag dul isteach sa teach
• ag teacht amach as an teach

- Is it possible to suppress the adverbs (isteach, amach)?
- If yes, does that change the meaning?
- If not, why are they obligatory and in which context would they not appear?

• beith Cáit ag teacht as Meireacá / as an Spáinn / as Baile Átha Cliath amaireach (Learning Irish)
• tá sé ag teacht ón bhaile

- Am I correct in thinking that one uses "as" when the location is regarded as a volume out of which one comes, and "ó" when the location is not regarded as a volume?

- Considering "ag teacht amach as an teach" and "ag teacht as Meireacá", could it be that when on uses "amach" one focuses on the fact that the movement is OUTWARDS, and when one doesn't uses "amach" one focuses on the fact that the movement is FROM (a volume)?

quote:

- Is it possible to suppress the adverbs (isteach, amach)?

Please use normal everyday terms. When I hear "supress", I think "quieten, or make smaller, or more subtle" -- I don't think "omit".

"ag dul isteach san árasán" translates quite well as "going into the building".

If you omitted "isteach", you'd have:

ag dul san árasán

First of all, this is strange. Secondly, if it did mean something, it would mean that a person was in the building, and that they were going, sort of like:

ag súgaradh san árasán = playing in the building (within).

They are "obligatory" because there's movement in the sentence. If something is stationary (ie. not moving), then don't use "isteach". If it is moving, use "isteach".

He walked into the building. = Chuaigh sé isteach san árasán.
He is in the building. = Tá sé san árasán.

Rule of thumb:
isteach i = into
i = in


Few people would say "ag teacht as Meiriceá"; I myself would say "ag teacht ó Mheiriceá".

"as" and "ó" are pretty much interchangeable when they mean "originating from".

beidh Cáit ag teacht as (nó ó) M(h)eireacá / as an (nó ón) Spáinn / as (nó ó) B(h)aile Átha Cliath amárach.

(Message edited by Larry on March 10, 2006)

Je viens de Paris = Tá mé ag teacht as/ó P(h)áras
Je sors de Paris = Tá mé ag teacht amach as Páras

Je vais à Paris = Tá mé ag goil go Páras
Je vais dans Paris = Tá mé ag goil i bPáras
Je rentre dans Paris = Tá mé ag goil isteach i bPáras

?

quote:

Please use normal everyday terms. When I hear "supress", I think "quieten, or make smaller, or more subtle" -- I don't think "omit".

From dictionary.com, here are the definitions of "suppress":

To put an end to forcibly; subdue.
To curtail or prohibit the activities of.
To keep from being revealed, published, or circulated.
To deliberately exclude (unacceptable desires or thoughts) from the mind.
To inhibit the expression of (an impulse, for example); check: suppress a smile.
To reduce the incidence or severity of (a hemorrhage or cough, for example); arrest.

Looks like only the LAST definition has anything to do with "quieten." (Quieten: is that even a word???)

Anyway, I understood what was meant by "suppress" as I'm sure everyone else probably did.

"i" can be combined with "isteach" as well as "istigh". Can "as" be combined with "amuigh" (tá siad ag imirt amuigh as a teach)?

Yes. But, if you're simply saying that they are leaving the house, amuigh isn't needed. However if, for instance , the house is on fire, then what you have there is valid. They are exiting the house and moving away (outward) from it.

It is possible to oppose i to as with dynamic verbs:

- Tá mé ag teacht sa mbaile / sa dteach.
- Tá mé ag teacht as an mbaile / as an dteach.

But is it possible with static verbs:

- Tá mé i mo sheasamh sa dteach.
- Tá mé i mo sheasamh as an dteach. (?)

- Tá mé ag fanacht sa dteach.
- Tá mé ag fanacht as an dteach. (?)

quote:

Tá mé ag teacht sa mbaile / sa dteach.

Déarfainn Tá mé ag teacht abhaile, ceart go leor, ach ní déarfainn Tá mé ag teacht sa teach. Is dóigh liom go mbeadh Tá mé ag teacht isteach níos nádúrtha.

quote:

But is it possible with static verbs?
- Tá mé ag fanacht as an dteach. (?)

Bheinn sásta le Tá mé ag fanacht as an teach leis an gciall "I'm staying out of the house" nó rud éigin mar sin. Mar shampla:

Fan as an áit sin! (Stay out of that place!)

Fanaim as an teach nuair a bhíonns sise ar cuairt. (I stay out the house whenever she is visiting.)

>>Déarfainn Tá mé ag teacht abhaile, ceart go leor, ach ní déarfainn Tá mé ag teacht sa teach. Is dóigh liom go mbeadh Tá mé ag teacht isteach níos nádúrtha.

It could be that the terms "teach" and "baile" where indeed badly chosen since they have also become part of adverbial fixations such as "abhaile" and "isteach".

It may be better with "seomra" or "árasán":

- Tá mé ag teacht sa seomra / san árasán.
- Tá mé ag teacht as an seomra / as an árasán.

What do you think?

Thinking about the preposition "de":

Dynamic verbs:

- Thit an leabhar den bhord.
- Bain dhíot do chóta.

Static verbs:

- Bhí siad ina seasamh den bhóthar. (?) (They were standing off the road.)
- Fan den fhéar! (?) (Stay off the grass!)

quote:

Tá mé ag teacht sa seomra / san árasán.

Sílim go mbeadh "isteach sa seomra/árasán" i bhfad níos fearr.

quote:

Tá mé ag teacht as an seomra / as an árasán.

Tá sé sin ceart go leor.

quote:

- Bhí siad ina seasamh den bhóthar. (?) (They were standing off the road.)
- Fan den fhéar! (?) (Stay off the grass!)

Níor chuala mé ceachtar acu riamh. Is féidir "taobh thiar de X, taobh amuigh de X, etc." a úsáid le "fan", áfach:

Fanaigí taobh thiar den chlaí.

(Message edited by dennis on March 11, 2006)

>>Sílim go mbeadh "isteach sa seomra/árasán" i bhfad níos fearr.

Do you mean that one would never hear such a thing, or that it could be heard in the roght context?
How about another verb:

- Cuir an leabhar sa mbosca. (Put the book in the box).

Couldn't we have the same difference as in English?:
- Cuir an leabhar sa mbosca. (Put the book in the box).
- Cuir an leabhar isteach sa mbosca. (Put the book into the box).

About "de", couldn't one find a context in which it would be used with a static verb, like in English with "off"?
(I don't care what verb as long as it's static, and I don't care what place as long as it's concrete)

I think 'de' in static context is more to "of".
Má bhfuil cuid den muintir sasta go leor leis sin - maith is breá.
If enough of the people are happy with it - then fine and dandy.
Although, D'fhan siad de ar an gclé. (den gclé?)
They waited off on the left. (seperate from the others)
When in motion, it is more like "off".
Thit an cupán den mbord.
The cup fell off/from the table.

"static" implies "spatialization":
in "cuid de" or "de thaisme", there is no spatial context per se.

Are there other examples like "D'fhan siad de ar an gclé."?

Dennis, si tu en as le temps et la patience, pourrais-tu jeter un œil aux diverses questions que j'ai posées au long de cette discussion et qui restent encore sans réponse ?

Max, je ferais de mon mieux. Mais tu sais qu'il existe des phrases qui -- bien qu'elles soient grammaticalement "bien formées" -- semblent assez insolites ou douteuses. Des fois, avec un peut de chance ou d'imagination, on peut trouver, ou plutôt construire, un contexte où une telle phrase sonne bien. Par exemple, la phrase "he came in the room" me semble assez bizarre si c'est le verbe qui veut dire "venir" qui est en jeu. Mais il y des autres interpréations qui le rendent tout à fait okay: (a) came = il a joui; (b) in = into, "contraction" assez commun; et (c) -- la plus forcée -- "Did Merlin come yet?" "He did. He came, (just like that! out of thin air!) in the room beneath the library." Bon, tout cela en guise d'avertissement! Il y a des "cas spécials" ou des "cas limite" en irlandais aussi. Agus an méid sin ráite, tabharfaidh mé súil ar do chuid ceisteanna anois. Agus maith dom mo chuid Fraincise!

M- Tá mé ag teacht sa seomra.
D- Sílim go mbeadh "isteach sa seomra i bhfad níos fearr.
M- Do you mean that one would never hear such a thing, or that it could be heard in the right context?

Bhuel, ciallaíonn "tar" "jouir" i nGaeilge chomh maith! Thairis sin, ní thaitníonn tar sa seomra, etc. liom. Ach tá na habairtí seo a leanas ceart go leor:

Chuaigh sé san arm. = He joined the army.
Chuir sé sa bhosca é. = He put it in(to) the box.

Maidir le "chuaigh sé sa bhosca" (bosca mór, ar ndóigh!), bheinn ag súil le "chuaigh sé anonn is anall sa bhosca", nó rud éigin eile mar sin, ag cur in iúl go raibh sé ag gluaiseacht taobh istigh den bhosca. Nó "chuaigh sé isteach sa bhosca", ag cur in iúl go bhfuil iontráil i gceist.

quote:

About "de", couldn't one find a context in which it would be used with a static verb, like in English with "off"?

Ní féidir liom cuimhneamh ar aon sampla anois. Stad sé den ól. ?? Ní hea. Tá sorry orm. ;-)

D'abord, félicitations pour le français : presque pas de fautes !

Is ball nua den bhord mé. Ach mar sin féin, b'fhéidir go ligfear dom focal a cur isteach san ábhar seo.

Feictear dhom gur fadhb a bhaineann le h-úsáid Mheirceánach atá i gceist ach go h-áirithe anseo. Agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil préamhacha an fhadhb le fáil i mBeurla na Stát Aontaithe a raibh an-tionchar air ó thaobh na n-imircí ón nGearmáin. [Mar shampla: in das Haus vs im Haus(e): .i. into the house/isteach sa tigh vs in the house/sa tigh - an chéad ceann gníomhach agus and tarna ceann ag cur síos ar stádas nó staid]. Dá réir sin cailleadh thall, beagnach, an difríocht idir 'in & 'into' Ní minic a chloistear, i rith mo bheart, 'into' i mBeurla Mheirceá. Agus anois tá an tionchar céanna ag druidim isteach i mBeurla Shasana agus Éireann.

Agus maidir le 'stad sé den ól', Dennis, táim cinnte go bhfuil an frása 'staon sé den ól' coitianta go leor. Déirfinn fiú go mbeidh sé i bhfad níos coitianta tar éis Lá le Phádraig. :-)

quote:

presque pas de fautes

Osna faoisimh! Feicim cúpla dearmad cló anois: "ferais" in áit "ferai", "peut de" in áit "peux de", "interpréations". Is dócha go bhfuil níos measa ann fós, ach tá mé sásta gur thuig tú mé ar aon nós.

>>"peut de" in áit "peux de"

Es-tu bien sûr de ça ?...

Argh. Peu. Peu. Peu.. On m'entend quand je le dit -- ou on fait semblant de m'entendre, en tout cas. ;-)

Là, je ne comprends pas ce que tu veux dire...

Quand je dit "on peut" (vs. "un peu") etc. en français on me comprend sans peine. Je plaisante, assez inhabilement, en disant "on fait semblant de m'entendre" (ligeann siad orthu go dtuigeann siad mé). Tá mo chuid gutaí réasúnta maith i bhFraincis, cé go bhfuil mo litriú éiginnte, gan trácht ar chodanna eile den teanga! ;-)

>>Je plaisante, assez inhabilement, en disant "on fait semblant de m'entendre"

Si par plaisanter tu entends* faire un jeu de mots avec "entendre" qui renverrait à la fois à "to hear" et "to understand", je dois dire que malheureusement ça ne marche pas : la formulation fait qu'on comprend "entendre" dans le sens de "to hear", et ce sans équivoque...

*encore une autre acception du term.

quote:

Ní minic a chloistear, i rith mo bheart, 'into' i mBeurla Mheirceá.

Sin rud nár thug mé faoi deara riamh, ach anois agus é ráite agat, bhuel, is léir go bhfuil an ceart agat!

Seo fíricín (factoid) eile daoibh: ní úsáidtear "a-steach" i gcuid de na canúintí in Albain. Deirtear "thig a-staigh" (tar isteach) chomh maith le "tha e a-staigh" i mBarraidh, Uidhist a Deas, etc. Agus ní rud nua é seo.

quote:

la formulation fait qu'on comprend "entendre" dans le sens de "to hear", et ce sans équivoque...

Ah! Merci!

Revenons à nos moutons...

I've been thinking about "to" and "at" in English:

- to go to the door
- to go at the door

- to walk to the window
- to walk at the window

What semantic difference do you perceive?

quote:

Revenons à nos moutons...

Is maith liom an nath sin! Fillimis ar an ábhar. Ach tá an leagan Frainicise níos ... pittoresque.

quote:

to go at the door
to walk at the window

Dá ndéarfadh duine ar bheagán Béarla é sin liom, chuirfinn "to" in áit "at" i m'intinn, sin an méid. Ach más ó chainteoir dúchais a chuala mé é sin, bheadh orm ciall éigin eile a bhaint as... nó iarracht a thabhairt ar chiall a bhaint as, ar a laghad.

He went at the door. = Rinne sé ionsaí ar an doras (lena chos, le tua, lena dhá dhorn, etc).

She walked at the window. = Níos deacra! OK. Seo agat é:

(a) Shiúil sí i dtreo na fuinneoga, agus í ar meisce; nó: agus fearg nó mearbhall uirthi.
(b) Shiúil sí anonn is anall in aice na fuinneoga.

Tá go maith? :-)

quote:

Dá ndéarfadh duine ar bheagán Béarla é sin liom, chuirfinn "to" in áit "at" i m'intinn, sin an méid. Ach más ó chainteoir dúchais a chuala mé é sin, bheadh orm ciall éigin eile a bhaint as...

Bhoil, ní cainteoir dúchais mé, agus ní duine ar bheagán Béarla mé ach oiread (or so I believe...)

I was thinking about the prepositions "at" and "to" in English: comparing it to "à" in French, it seems abvious that when "à" is to be translated into English, "at" is used with static verbs and "to" with dynamic verbs ("rester à" > "to stay at"; "aller à" > "to go to"). Then I thought of sentences like those above which undermine that first impression.
The feeling I get when comparing theses sentences is that:
- "to" implies simply a direction (he went to the window... and came back)
- "at" implies something like a goal (he went at the window... to see what was happening)

What do you think?

quote:

- "at" implies something like a goal (he went at the window... to see what was happening)

Ní dóigh liom é. Ní "goal" atá i gceist domsa in abairt mar sin (abairt atá ar imeall ceart an Bhéarla, dála an scéil), ach rud éigin cosúil le "victim" (!), más féidir an focal sin a úsáid ar rud neamhbheo. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, "he went at X" = "he took his fists, an ax, etc. to X", nó "he lunged at X". (X = duine nó rud).

quote:

Bhoil, ní cainteoir dúchais mé, agus ní duine ar bheagán Béarla mé ach oiread

Gan dabht! Ní ortsa a bhí mé ag smaoineamh ar chor ar bith. Agus is léir ón abairt seo go bhfuil do chuid Gaeilge ar tí brúchtach amach -- ar nós Venus ó cheann Zeus?

As far as I can tell,..Chuaigh sé go dtí an fhuinneog agus tháinig sé ar ais.
He went 'to'... and came back.
And...??
Chuaigh sé chun fuinneog leis a fheiceáil abhí ag tarlú.
I think this one implies that a window (or possibly another opening) wasn't readily nearby and some searching to find one was taken.
Is it possible that using 'chuig' instead of "chun" there might suggest that there were windows.... (perhaps the room was crowded?)
Hmmmmm.... Does the usage of "le" above suggest that whatever was happening 'needed to be seen'?
EEEkkk..... to many nuances and shades of meaning! My head's gonna explode!

quote:

Ní "goal" atá i gceist domsa in abairt mar sin (abairt atá ar imeall ceart an Bhéarla, dála an scéil), ach rud éigin cosúil le "victim" (!), más féidir an focal sin a úsáid ar rud neamhbheo. Mar a dúirt mé cheana, "he went at X" = "he took his fists, an ax, etc. to X", nó "he lunged at X". (X = duine nó rud).

But are you not saying that: "to walk at X" = "to walk to X with the purpose of..."?

quote:

is léir ón abairt seo go bhfuil do chuid Gaeilge ar tí brúchtach amach -- ar nós Venus ó cheann Zeus?

Feictear dhom nach bhfuil an focal "ar tí brúchtach amach" iomchuí... ba cheann níos fearr é "ag méadú go mall" ...
(Did I get that right?)

quote:

But are you not saying that: "to walk at X" = "to walk to X with the purpose of..."?

A mhalairt ar fad. Tá mé in ann dhá bhrí a bhaint as an abairt sin:

a) She walked (and talked and smoked and drank), at the window. (Bhíodh sí in aice leis an bhfuinneog agus na rudaí eile sin ar siúl aice.) Ní gá an chamóg a chur ann.

b) She moved unsteadily, uncertainly, lurchingly, without focus, in the general direction of the window. (Is dócha nach n-aontódh chuile Bhéarlóir leis an gciallú seo, mar tá an abairt féin an-aisteach ar fad.)

quote:

"ag méadú go mall"

Ag méadú gan dabht, ach go mall?? Dáiríre? ;-)

(Message edited by dennis on March 16, 2006)

quote:

Dáiríre?

go han-mhall... osna... ach tá a fhios agam cén fáth...

quote:

ach tá a fhios agam cén fáth

Easpa ama agus an iomarca le déanamh?

Il y a de ça...
Mais c'est surtout le fait que je n'aie toujours pas commencé à lire en irlandais.
J'ai envie de lire en orthographe pré-standard car je suis attiré par ses formes, or il semble que se procurer ce genre d'ouvrage n'est pas chose si simple.
Par ailleurs, il me faut des dictionnaires (Dinneen, Ó Dónaill, de Bhaldraithe), mais soit ils sont expédiés rapidement et le coût d'envoi est exorbitant, soit c'est abordable et ils mettent un temps fou à arriver. J'ai opté pour la deuxième solution, et donc j'attends toujours...
Enfin bon...

"ag" - "chuig" - "chun"

• "ag" can be used with static verbs : "tá sí ag fanacht ag an ngeata".
It can also be used with static verbs : "tá sí a goil ag an dochtúr". In this case, can it always be replaced by "chuig" or are there particular cases where the replacement by "chuig" would entail a change in the meaning?

• Are "chuig" and "chun" interchangeable?

quote:

J'ai envie de lire en orthographe pré-standard car je suis attiré par ses formes, or il semble que se procurer ce genre d'ouvrage n'est pas chose si simple.

Is féidir liom cúpla scéal ón mbéaloideas a chóipeáil duit as an leabhar Irish Literature, vol. X: Gaelic Authors, 1904. Séard atá i gceist den chuid is mó ná scéalta a chnuasaigh Dubhghlas de hÍde (Douglas Hyde), le haistriúchán Béarla en face. Agus chuir Galt Barber i gCalifornia scéalta sa seanchló ar fáil ar an idirlíon ag:

http://www.folkplanet.com/seanchlo/

quote:

ils mettent un temps fou à arriver

Ça m'étonne. Faighim mo chuid leabhar Gaeilge ó litriocht.com via "Economy". Tagann siad go sciobtha beagnach i gcónaí: seachtain amháin go minic ó Éirinn go Seattle!

quote:

"tá sí a goil ag an dochtúr". In this case, can it always be replaced by "chuig" or are there particular cases where the replacement by "chuig" would entail a change in the meaning?

Cloistear "ag goil ag an dochtú(i)r" i gConamara go háirithe. Shíl mé riamh nach bhfuil san "ag" seo ó cheart (= originellement) ach leagan abrégé nó short form den réamhfhocal "chuig". Níl mé céad faoin gcéad cinnte faoi seo.

quote:

Are "chuig" and "chun" interchangeable?

Hmmm. De ghnáth nó beagnach i gcónaí? Caithfidh mé mo mhachnamh a dhéanamh air sin! Tá a fhios agam, áfach, go ndéarfainn "chun an fhírinne a rá" (nó "leis an bhfírinne a rá"), ach ní deirim "chuig an bhfírinne a rá". Go figure (mar a deirtear i Nua-Eabhrac). Ach is ionann na forainmneacha réamhfhoclacha nó "conjugated prepositions" atá ag "chuig" agus ag "chun": chugam, chugat, etc.!

quote:

Is féidir liom cúpla scéal ón mbéaloideas a chóipeáil duit

What do you mean by "cóipeáil"?

quote:

Faighim mo chuid leabhar Gaeilge ó litriocht.com

The cheapest shipping cost with litriocht.com was 50€ which is really too much. So I tried amazon and got a much lower price (but now I have to be patient).

quote:

Níl mé céad faoin gcéad cinnte faoi seo.

"In this sense ['to' (a person or place)] ag has supplanted an older chuig which survives elsewhere and is still often written." (Learning Irish p. 73)

quote:

Ach is ionann na forainmneacha réamhfhoclacha nó "conjugated prepositions" atá ag "chuig" agus ag "chun": chugam, chugat, etc.

We call this "syncretism".

quote:

ach ní deirim "chuig an bhfírinne a rá".

But it can only be a syncretism if "chun" and "chuig" are two dinstinct prepositions. If, where they are not interchangeable, only one is accepted, you can never show a distinction, therefore the simplest analysis is to regard "chuig" and "chun" as two forms of the same preposition.

"chuig" - "go dtí"

In the examples I have, these two prepositions are used with dynamic verbs.
- Could they be used with static verbs too?

- What is the difference between the two?:
"ag goil ag an dochtúr"
"ag goil go Sasana"
Can we have:
"ag goil chuig an dochtúr"
"ag goil chuig Sasana"

------

"faoi"

- "faoin tuath", "faoin tír"

Do you have other examples where the preposition "faoi" is used in this sense?

quote:

What do you mean by "cóipeáil"?

Fótachóip a dhéanamh de na scéalta agus iad a chur sa phost chugat. Ça va? Tig leat dul i dteagmháil liom via an leathanach seo:
http://www.sengoidelc.com/node/1

Chuig is 'towards/to'
Chun is to/towards/ in order for/ for....what purpose.

www.focal.ie
This link was given by "Mbm" yesterday. Type in 'chun' going from Irish to English. For me, it shed a bit of light on this. I got a real good sense of 'for the purpose of...'. Especially in the Irish, which just gave a better 'mindset picture' to the translations.

I find the same example from Ó Siadhail on p.73.
So, I took it as 'chuig' - to: though not necessarily giving any sense of direction or distance or "direct purpose".
Whereas, I took 'chun' to give the direct purpose.

And as far as faoi, I'm not sure. Maybe a similarity in contrast between specific and non. Comparable with 'ansin vs. ansiúd' - i vs. faoi. At least with those examples.

(Message edited by Maidhc_Ó_G. on March 17, 2006)

quote:

"ag goil ag an dochtúr"
"ag goil go Sasana"
Can we have:
"ag goil chuig an dochtúr"
"ag goil chuig Sasana"

Ní go minic a chloisim "ag goil chuig Sasana", ach níl sé de dhánacht ionamsa é sin a cháineadh! Seo agat cúpla sampla ó Ghraiméir na mBráithre:

chun: chun faoistine, chun an tí, chun an mháistir

chuig: chuig faoistín, chuig an teach, chuig an máistir

go: go hAlbain, go glúine sa láib

go dtí: go dtí [an] bád, go dtí a theach féin, go dtí an fear, go dtí é

do: don Spáinn, don chlochar

I nGaeilge na Mumhan (agus i nGaeilge na hAlban!) is mó a chloistear "don siopa", etc., mura bhfuil dul amú orm.

one thing I've never got: why istigh i instead of just istigh? "he goes into the house" vs "he goes into in the house"

also, what is the differnce between i and isteach if both mean 'in' or 'inside' (or is one 'in' and one 'inside' and there being a distinction between the two)?

Yes, that's it. I - in....istigh - inside and isteach inward/into. It defines motion occuring.
Tá sé ag goill isteach istigh an teach. He's going inward inside the house.
Tá sé sa dteach. He's in the house. (There's no motion occuring.)
Tá sé ag goill istigh an teach. He's going inside the house. (This would be strange; since he's aleady inside the house, but it doesn't explain where he's going to.)
Ná rith istigh an teach! Don't run inside the house!

"i" is a preposition (as the English "in").
"istigh" and "isteach" are adverbs (as the English "indoors").

Tá sé ag goill isteach = He is going indoors
Tá sé ag goill isteach sa dteach = He is going indoors in the house

Tá sé istigh = He is indoors
Tá sé istigh sa dteach = He is indoors in the house

Here's a dialog to try to point up the distinctions. Imagine a private investigator (or spy or cop) tailing a subject, Seán, and reporting his movements to headquarters by radio or mobile:

HQ: Cá bhfuil Seán anois?
Cop: Ag siúl. Ah. Stad sé, ag an siopa.
HQ: An bhfuil sé amuigh fós?
Cop: Tá sé ag dul isteach anois.
HQ: Isteach sa siopa?
Cop: Sea.
...
HQ: An bhfuil sé istigh ansin fós?
Cop: Tá. Níor tháinig sé amach.
HQ: An bhfuil tú cinnte go bhfuil sa siopa fós?
Cop: Tá. Feicim istigh é, tríd an bhfuinneog.

that much I've got, but

tá mé istigh an teacht (I am inside the house)
tá mé sa teacht (I am in the house)

what is the difference? I'd be at a loss to explain the difference in English as well...I can't seem to find any examples when in/inside would not be interchangable in this context.

ooo...perhaps 'in this context'...would it be 'i' in that instance but never istigh (when you're figuritively 'in' and not physically 'in' would be 'i-only' while physical situations are interchangable)? are there other examples anyone can think of?

You can't say "istigh an teacht". (cf. what I wrote above for the explanation.)

quote:

Ní go minic a chloisim "ag goil chuig Sasana", ach níl sé de dhánacht ionamsa é sin a cháineadh!

With dynamic verbs, there is something called "polarity": the movement can be starting, ending, or in between.
When the movement is starting the polarity is "initial", when it's ending it is "final", and when it's in between it's "medial".

I wonder, could it be that:
- "chuig" is only used with dynamic verbs but has no polarity
- "go dtí" has a final polarity

In French, you can say both
"Je vais au magasin" and "je vais jusqu'au magasin"
But if you can say
"Je marche jusqu'au magasin"
you cannot say
"Je marche au magasin"

Is it the same in Irish?
Tá mé ag goil chuig an siopa / go dtí an siopa.
Tá mé ag siúl go dtí an siopa.
*Tá mé ag siúl chuig an siopa.

In the examples you've given, chuig says that you're going to the store, but you might go someplace other, or not, as well.
Go dtí, on the other hand, says that you're going to the store - and that's all. A definite distance.

Is "Tá mé ag siúl chuig an siopa." acceptable?

Maidhc:

Tá an méid sin maith go leor mar theoiric, ach ní bhraithim aon difríocht idir "go dtí an siopa" agus "chuig an siopa", dáiríre.

Max:

Agus ní bhraithim aon difríocht idir "ag siúl" agus "ag dul (goil)" roimh cheachtar acu.

B'fhéidir go bhfuil mo chuid Gaeilge lochtach sa dá chás!

"ag dul" has a final polarity. (aller) (You can't say "tá mé ag dul" alone, it has to be somewhere)
"ag siúl" has a medial polarity. (marcher) (You can say "tá mé ag siúl" alone)

quote:

You can't say "tá mé ag dul" alone, it has to be somewhere

An bhfuil tú cinnte? Cár fhoghlaim tú é sin? Deirtear rudaí mar seo:

Ní théann an dá dhath le chéile.
Tá sé ag dul le haer an tsaoil.
Chuaigh sé sin go maith.
Chuaigh sé leis an ngaoth.

Ní somewhere atá i gceist anseo, ach somehow. An bhfuil somehow maith go leor le final polarity a chruthú?

The same thing happens in French with "aller" or "to go".
And you say it yourself: "Ní somewhere atá i gceist anseo, ach somehow."
This means the context is no more spatial, so you can't take these example into consideration here.

With reference to the isteach/istigh question, it has just occurred to me that there is a practical help already existing in these two forms.

'Isteach' contains an accusative form of the word house, viz 'teach'. The acusative conveys the idea of motion in Irish as much as in Latin (Anyone remember Latin?) or German.

'Istigh' contains a dative form of the same word, 'tigh'. Dative conveys a static state.

I have no idea whether, historically, there is an actual direct derivation from Teach/Tigh - entering/being in a house/enclosed place, And I certainly would not make such an argument. But who knows, it may prove helpful to some - or contrariwise. :)

>>Cár fhoghlaim tú é sin?

I assumed.

In French, it is absolutely impossible to use "aller" alone in a spatial context, even in responses: if you don't want to specify where, you will use the adverbial pronoun "y" (j'y vais).

In English, it seems to me that you can:
1 "we can talk as we go" (In French we'd have "marcher")
2 "you go (first)" (In French we'd have "y aller")
3 "when does the train go?" (In French we'd have "partir")

So apparently the verbs "aller" and "to go" are quite different.
It could be that "aller" has a final polarity, and that "to go" has no polarity and only indicates movement: the polarity would be given by the context (1: medial, 2: ?, 3: initial, to go to: final)

Now, what with "téigh"?

quote:

Now, what with "téigh"?

Níl mé cinnte. Tabharfaidh mé cúpla sampla eile duit, agus b'fhéidir go mbeidh tú in ann an cheist a réiteach duit féin. Is tusa an teangeolaí! ;-)

Go dté tú slán! (May you go safely! ~ Goodbye! ~ Drive safely!)

Téann an t-amhrán mar seo. (The song goes like this.)

- An ndeachaigh sé?
- Chuaigh.

Ach:

It's going now. = Tá sé ar siúl anois.

I saw him going. = Chonaic mé ag imeacht é; chonaic mé é agus é ag imeacht.

Go! = Gread leat! Tóg ort! Scrios leat! Bog leat! Tseo! (le madra) 7c.

Is "Tá mé ag siúl chuig an siopa." acceptable?

Yeah I think (not sure!), but it has a "medial polarity". French "Je marche vers le/jusqu'au magasin."

Have you received Ó Dónaill? I don't find any sentence with "chuig" in it, so I'm not sure. People would use more "dul chuig an siopa", "dul chun an tsiopa".

I'm trying to figure out whether "siúil" functions as in French or as in English:

The English "to walk to the shop" can only be translated in French as "aller au magasin en marchant". "marcher jusqu'au magasin" is more like "to walk up to the shop".
(This is a well known difference between French and English: all those "he ran/saundered/swanned/hopped out of the room" correspond to the French "il est sorti en...")

So, either you can say in Irish "shiúil sé chuig/go dtí an siopa" (as the English "he walked to/up to the shop", or you can only say "shiúil sé go dtí an siopa" as in French "il a marché jusqu'au magasin".


(Non, je l'ai toujours pas reçu... (mais l'ai commandé sur amazon))

Seo curfá an amhráin "Siúil a Rún" ón ngrúpa Clannad, FWIW:

Siúil, siúil, siúil a rún
Siúil go socair agus siúil go ciúin
Siúil go doras agus éalaigh liom
Is go dté tú mo [sic] mhuirnín slán

quote:

So, either you can say in Irish "shiúil sé chuig/go dtí an siopa" (as the English "he walked to/up to the shop", or you can only say "shiúil sé go dtí an siopa" as in French "il a marché jusqu'au magasin".

Is féidir go dtáinig sé isteach faoi anáil an Bhéarla, ach cloistear "shiúil sé chuig/go dtí an siopa" etc. inniu. Tá sé sin níos éasca ná "chuaigh sé chuig an siopa de shiúl (a) c(h)os". ;-)

Isteach/Amach (gluaiseacht)
Istigh/Amuigh (suite)

Usáidtear isteach/amach chun gluaiseacht a léiriú

E.G. ag dul amach/ag teacht isteach

E.G. táim istigh i mo sheomra/tá mo dheirfiúr amuigh sa pháirc

árásán: an apartment (only)

Is fiú a rá go n-úsáidtear "isteach" go meafarach freisin nuair nach bhfuil teach nó foirgneamh eile i gceist:

isteach go hÁrainn
isteach go h-Inis Beannach
isteach go Faill na Mná