mainoff.gif
lastdyoff.gif
lastwkoff.gif
treeoff.gif
searchoff.gif
helpoff.gif
contactoff.gif
creditsoff.gif
homeoff.gif


The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2006 (January-February) » Archive through February 15, 2006 » Loss of dental fricatives in middle irish « Previous Next »

Author Message
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

what precipitated the loss of dental fricatives in 'middle irish' around 700 years ago?

Were there 4 or 2 forms?

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Mbm
Member
Username: Mbm

Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2006


Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

You mean the th-sounds? I never even knew Irish used to have them. (Modern Welsh has them, though.)

Is mise,
Michal Boleslav Mechura

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Robert (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From:
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 11:51 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

there were due to dental /t/ and /d/ (sorry no gentium on this station nor will it allow their installation, so imagine the dental diacratics) shifting under lenition Wikipedia gives 4 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish).

I gues this meant there were either 4 sounds articulated on the teeth /t/ /d/ and /t'/ and /d'/ (the last two seem improbable), or a shifting from fricative /d'/ and /t'/ to /θʲ/ and /ðʲ/ as they are on wiki under lenis contexts.

There also were gemminated consonants too.

The interesting thing about Gaeilge Theilinn by Wagner is that he records dental fricatives under sandhi in older speakers in the 1940s, suggesting, i suppose like nasalised bilabials vs. non-nasalised bilabials in older gaeltacht speakers today, that after a range is no longer phonetic, it can continue on incidentally transmitted by purly mechanical means over the generations.

He mentions gemminated consonants too in Donegal of that period...

Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message

Lars
Member
Username: Lars

Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 02:06 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

> what precipitated the loss of dental fricatives
> in 'middle irish' around 700 years ago?

No idea. Sound changes happen, whyever.
German lost [γ], [θ], [ð]. Welsh lost [γ]. English lost [x] and [γ].
Etc.

> Were there 4 or 2 forms?

Probably 4 ([θ], [ð], [θ´] and [ð´]), because they've been replaced by 4 (or at least 3) different sounds (i.e. usually [h], [γ], perhaps [h´] and [γ´]).



©Daltaí na Gaeilge