I've don't mean to rile anyone up by posting this, but I'd like to know...
It seems that if we all talk about politics are anything else that can have an element of controversy in it we are faced with the threat of our thread being shut down. I was just wondering why this is. It could be argued that those sorts of things haven't anything to do with the Irish language, but I don't think one can always compartmentalize things in that way. Gaeilge is usually the starting point for the all of it. I'd appreciate it if someone could tell me exactly what I ought not to discuss and/or mention. I don't want to cause any trouble for us in any way. Go raibh maith agat
Bein bua agus beanncht.

Discussing politics, or anything else for that matter, is acceptable when the discussion relates to the Irish language. There are clearly times when political events, parties etc have an influence on the language as a whole.

Other events, such as history, also have a bearing on the use of the language.

However, when those discussions evolve into criticism of one person's point of view purely on the basis of another contributor's political beliefs, without any reference to the language itself, the discussions lend themselves to "personal issues" and "heated debate". It is usually in those situations were we find attacks being made against an individual which is unacceptable.

It can often be avoided by choosing your words carefully :)

Yep Tá an ceart ag Larry.
Says him who's usually in the middle of the forum-wars ;)

Just so long as you keep it relevant and impersonal you're grand!

Hmmmm. Never really noticed any heated debates nor any personal attacks. Keen observation, though!

;)

***but I don't think one can always compartmentalize things in that way***

I speak Spanish fairly well, and my understanding of Spanish grammar is in no way dependent on a knowledge of Latin American or Spanish politics and/or religion.

So, I can, and will, compartmentalize that I don't need to know about the political climate in Peru in order to learn Spanish. If I want to talk about the political climate in Peru, then I should visit a forum that is set up for discussion of the political climate in Peru, and not burden others with it on a language-learning forum.

Is it somehow different for learning Irish?

The fact is the language is endangered,the language is also sponsored in the Irish speaking areas, radio TV
and print mediums so it does make it at times a political debate. Especially for those who "think"
the language should just be killed off and forgotten and that makes it a cultural debate. If you say chocha to most people it is not offensie but to Carribean Spanish speakers it is a very offensive word For Irish it is important to have a grasp of the socio-political implications linked to learning the language so the facts are the Irish language is intrinsically tied to Politics and Culture. my 2 cents

Chris, you make an interesting and valid point and in I see what you're saying, with Spanish though, people speak it as a first language in so very many countries so one country's political scene is not so intrinsically tied to the language and preservation thereof. That's whare I have to side with Dan. It all can meld together at times.

I think it has a lot to do with ones personality.
I suppose the bias I have is that when I attempt to learn a language, it's purely an academic pursuit. It's the joy of being able to speak, to hear, to write, and to understand that language.

As for Irish--the only real motivation I had for starting it is that I think Irish is the most beautiful sounding language I've heard--only French is as beautiful to my ears.
It had nothing to do with politics, sociology, or heritage (I'm of mostly Scottish, Icelandic and Norwegian roots--a mongrel for sure).

I just don't want to be indoctrinated as I'm learning a language, that's all. It's just a turn-off.

Chris, I don't think that it is possible to separate the Irish language from politics. In any discussion of the language politics is likely to be in the background, even in the word.
As an example the name Séan which is so very Irish actually comes from the French, Jean.
The name Eoin was proscribed in Ireland and the English ordered that an alternative be used, suggesting John. The Irish being contrary chose Jean, the 'J' of which became 'Sh' hence Séan.
At least that's what I read somewhere once!!!

Duach.

Very valid point made above, but Chris, if you are desperate to avoid politics I suppose you can talk to us on threads that don't lean that way. You can just leave it at the language itself, though that can be difficult at times. We don't want to discourage you at all.
Beir bua agus beannacht

The only way Gaeilge can be really revived is with politics.

Groups, people etc. can do their best but politicans have the necessary power.

"Is it somehow different for learning Irish?"

well, for a few reasons. firstly, the purpose of this board (as I understand it) is not to simply engage in discussions of grammar etc, but the language as a whole. That includes the revival movement we are all part of, the roadblocks it faces, *why* it faces them, *who* is responsible for placing them there/alleviating the problem and *how* are we best to work past them.

In addition, this is also a place to write in Irish, which seems to be mostly done regarding happenings of the day and more specifically current political events in Ireland.

It's that why, who and how that usually get us into trouble when people are unable to argue their point dispassionately and with a cool head.

This seems as good a time as any to post a reminder about these boards.

This from our help section:

The Daltaí Boards are intended to promote a free exchange of ideas and knowledge concerning the Irish language and its grammar. They are not intended for political discussion, whether conducted as Bearla (in English) or as Gaeilge (in Irish). When writing your messages, please use the same courtesy that you would show when speaking face-to-face with someone. Flames, insults and personal attacks will not be tolerated and will be deleted or archived at the discretion of the Board Administrators. Likewise political discussions may also be deleted or archived at the discretion of the Board Administrators. Postings contrary to the foregoing should be brought to the attention of a Board Administrator. Those who repeatedly ignore this policy may be permanently banned from posting....

Caoimhín

I sometimes miss the old days when a verbal fist-fight could break out at the drop of a hat, but I must concede that since the current limits have been put in place to extinguish flame wars before they get out of hand, I HAVE LEARNED SIGNIFICANTLY MORE IRISH.

I think that a distinction can be made between discussing politics and politics getting into or being part of a discussion of the language.

When all is said and done, showing an interest in Irish is a political statement.

But it is not a party political statement - which some recent discussions have been.


The cause of Irish in Ireland has been harmed by being associated with one narrow (party) political viewpoint.

Eh hypocrisy.
You give out about political discussion and then make a political statement.

No, I don't give out about political discussion. I have engaged in it here - but I accept when the hosts decide that it has gone far enough.

I object when narrow party interests instrumentalise the Irish language, and I don't care which interests those are.

I think that things are connected so it should be allowed to discuss politics if it relates to Eire and thus the language. I would hope that the all of us being grown people on this forum would at the same time be kind and not torment those whose opinions differ. I should hope that if we can do this Caoimhin would not be so harsh and close our threads so commonly. Perhaps I speak too forwardly but I've grown up in a world whare I must stand up for myself and my principles and so I do my best to do this without riling those around up, not always succeeding. I know that if we talk about Irish politics there are bound to be ruffled feathers but some of that can be avoided if the all of us use a bit of common sense.

Beir bua agus beannacht.

For a good example of the abusive types of postings that can be found on this website, take a look at Dennis' posting in the Irish Only section titled "Scéal grinn de dhíth orm go géar." (about a month ago) In that posting, Dennis decided to mock our president with a link to a puppet-like website. What does that have to do with the Irish language???

These types of postings have been quite common. They always come from one political viewpoint and are never stopped until somebody takes a stand. That's when, and only when, the Board Administrator jumps in a squelches the other side. So much for fairness!!!

If you doubt what I say, take a look at the additional postings for the thread above. Everybody, including the Board Adminstrator seems so sympathetic to "poor" Dennis, when in reality, he's the one who is abusive!!!

Go raibh maith agat, a dhuine gan ainm, as aird an chomhluadair a dhíriú ar an suíomh sin uair amháin eile!! Is fiú na boic mhóra a aoradh ó am go ham. Agus maidir leis an bpolaitíocht, seo leid duit: feictear dom go bhuil cead againn -- go neamhoifigiúil, ar ndóigh -- níos mó a rá i nglan-Ghaeilge ná i mBéarla. An mheancóg a rinne an duine (tusa?) a d'fhreagair an teachtaireacht sin ná gur scríobh sé ar ais i mBéarla, agus le pottymouth más buan mo chuimhne.

quote:

"Agus maidir leis an bpolaitíocht, seo leid duit: feictear dom go bhuil cead againn -- go neamhoifigiúil, ar ndóigh -- níos mó a rá i nglan-Ghaeilge ná i mBéarla."

Translation - "And in regards to politics, here's some advice for you: it seems to me that we have permission, --unofficially of course -- it's better to speak in good Irish than in English."

Dennis seems to think he has permission to make his insulting, political postings at will. I wonder if the Admistrator agrees with him???

So much for following rules.

Tá d'aistriúchán lochtach. = Your translation is defective:

níos mó a rá i nglan-Ghaeilge ná i mBéarla.

Cén fáth a bhfuil faitíos ort d'ainm a úsáid? An cladhaire thú?

Seans nach bhfuair an Duine gan Ainm séala an Fhorais ar aistriúchán fós!

Oh person without a name! Caoimhín is usually patient, and intervenes only when several people get involved in a brawl, and no other purpose is being served by the thread.

Threads in Irish, even when politically charged, rarely descend into brawls.

Dennis,


You assume that I'm afraid (faitios) to use my name. You then ask me if I'm a coward (cladhaire). There are many members on this forum who use nicknames or other made-up names, which I find perfectly acceptable. Do you consider them to be afraid? Would you ask them if they're cowards?

Isn't the real issue here your inability to treat others with respect, along with your inability to follow the simple rules set forth by this website? Most of us come to this website to learn Irish. We don't come here to get indoctrinated by your political point of view, which has occurred plenty of times.

It's too bad, the rules can't be followed, or enforced.

Duine gan Ainm

So now occasional jokes with political content are "indoctrination"?

We'll just have to invoke the 1st Amendment:
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

BTW, Duine gan ainm, "your" president is also Dennis' since he is a US citizen.

Aonghus,

If I understand you correctly, from your point of view it's perfectly acceptable to make political insults as long as they're in Irish. Where's your sense of fair play? What about this website's rule that these forums "are not intended for political discussion, whether conducted as Bearla (in English) or as Gaeilge (in Irish)."

I used to be very active in Daltai with classes and events, etc, but then I started to realize that certain people within Daltai really enjoy bashing their fellow Americans with insults against our president and attacking political views other than theirs. Because of this I have ceased to support Daltai and know of other people that have done the same thing.

You and Dennis, along with a few others, make it abundantly clear that the basic rules of decency don't have to and will not be followed.

I'll find another place to learn Irish where I don't have to put up with such nonsense!!!

No. From my point of view it is perfectly fair to engage in light hearted banter in either language. This banter will sometimes be political.

I respect and expect the host's right to determine when a line has been crossed.

My contention is that discussions in Irish are less prone to cross that line.

Natural conversation, whether in threads here or better still in the real world is the best way to learn any language.

For the record, the best jokes I have heard about your president were made either by himself of his wife. I am relieved to see he has a sense of humo(u)r, despite some of his partisans lack of it.

I got involved in this thread because it offends my sense of decency to see someone snipe behind the cover of anonymity at someone who is prepared to invest their real identity here to build up trust - when I see a post by Dennis, I know what I am getting. When I see "Unregistered Guest" I am often disappointed by the content.

Dennis's point is that we have, unofficialy, more leeway to make more risqué statements on the Irish-only board than elsewhere, whether this involves politics or any other subject. I think that this is true and it is also right. Personally, I would argue for an even more lenient policy. On the Gaeilge-only board, I think we should be allowed to go hammer-and-tongs on any subject: politics, religion, sex, srl-the topics that usually get you barred from pubs. After all, this site is all about promoting the Irish language and taking active steps to ensure its survival. The Irish langage cannot survive if those who speak it cannot conduct every aspect of their lives through their own langauge, including having vicious political arguments (as people do in every language.) So Dennis was perfectly entitled to satirise George Bush on the Gaeilge only board just as James would be perfectly entitled to take Bertie Ahern or Noam Chomsky apart, provided he did it in Irish, or as much Irish as he can muster.

I would make just two caveats to that position:
(a)Political arguments should not be conducted at all on the Gaeilge-Béarla board. It really would turn off a lot of learners.
(b) personal insults must be barred from all posts on either forum.

Duine gan - I can't believe that you attended Daltai classes and events and found anti-American jabs prevalent. I suggest you give examples of what you found so offensive and where. I have attended these same classes and while there is a lot of fun and great craic, I have never found anything like what you describe. For the most part, the attendees are Americans and Irish-born Americans who are very pround of our country and our Irish heritage.

Dennis and Aonghus are two of the best posters on this forum and I never find them offensive. There are some people who spend time looking for offense and they usually find it.

As for your support of Daltai, if your unsigned, undocumented sniping is a sample, I doubt you'll be missed. Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

well i have never been to a Daltai(sorry for the "no" fadas) class. but i have only been on site forum for a few days...and ive recieved nothing but helpful advise. and for someone who doesnt suport Daltai, its kind of odd to post such a thing in a Daltai forum, If this place and its staff are such- american bashers- i would sudjust a move to a forum more to your liking. Now thats just me. as for my views.i thank everyone on this forum that has helped me so far.your awesome

Seems like there are a few people who would like to engage in political discussions on the Daltai website, at least for the Gaeilge-only forum. I would have much liked to join in on political discussions on the English/Gaeilge and Gaeilge-only sites myself, but it would not be fair to do so in light of the clear Daltai statmenent against such discussions (see Caoimhin's posting above).

Some of you have no problem in violating the basic rules set out by Daltai. Why is that? Do you lack respect for the people that set forth the rules? I wonder how an apologetic would defend the existing rule of no politics on the Daltai forums? How would she or he respond to Aonghus' rule-bending (and mind-bending) logic that a little banter is ok, or Dennis' or Fiacc's premise that we have unofficial leeway? ("I'm sorry officer about speeding, but you see, I have unofficial leeway to go as fast as I want.").

Regarding these gems from Aonghus' pen:

quote:

We'll just have to invoke the 1st Amendment:
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

BTW, Duine gan ainm, "your" president is also Dennis' since he is a US citizen.

Aonghus, I'm very impressed with your grasp of American civics, and that you came to the correct conclusion that Dennis' president is the same as mine, but if you'll re-read my posts above you'll see that I had used the possesive pronoun "our" with "president," so there was no need for you to indicate the obvious. Regarding the 1st Amendment, do you really think that this amendment applies in this case? If so, it would be safe to conclude that you think that the website administrators are violating Dennis' 1st admendment rights by setting for the no-politics rules.

Lucy - if you'll re-read my post you'll see that I never mentioned "anti-American jabs," as you state in your posting above. What I wrote was "... bashing their FELLOW AMERICANS (emphasis added) with insults against OUR president and attacking political views other than theirs." I shouldn't have to explain this to you, but WE Americans can differ in political opinions without being considered anti-American.

And yeah Lucy, I'll make sure not to let the door hit me on the way out - as I'm sure many others have done also.

Everyone having had their say,

this thread is being closed.

Caoimhín

(Message edited by Caoimhín on January 25, 2006)

Sure and I want to just write in before the thread closes. Thanks to Caomhin for warning us about the closure, it was better than when you killed our chess thread. Yes, that still annoys me to no end, it's the principle of the thing. The all of you are interesting and I very much enjoy being part of this forum, even when things get heavy, I mean that is how it is in real life. I do enjoy a bit of banter every now and again.
Beir bua agus beannacht