Our friend Lughaidh has very kindly provided a set of audio files to accompany the 28 lessons of First Steps in Irish by the Christian Brothers. As you may know, FSII was (like Progress in Irish) published without audio materials or answer keys.

If you own First Steps in Irish and would like to enjoy the sounds of its vocabulary with an Ulster blas, please visit http://fsii.gaeilge.org; at that location you will also find answer key sheets, useful for correcting your exercises as you work your way through the book.

Bainigí sult astu.

Molaim an obair ar fád go hard. Go raibh míle maith agaibh Cionaodh agus Lughaidh.

Colleen

Go hiontach, go raibh míle maith agat, a Lughaidh!

Just a quick question and apologies for my arrogance, but I listened to the recordings mentioned above and I was slightly confused as to where the speaker was from! He doesn't sound at all from Ulster. There was a slight bizzare sound to his accent. I live in Donegal and hear Irish spoken everyday from native speakers, which is why I thought it sounded quite odd.

Apologies again for speaking my mind.

Ciaran.

What is odd is that I had to read the Irish that was in that book (mainly standard Irish), so what you hear is Donegal pronounciation, sometimes for words and forms that don’t exist in Donegal Irish.

Seachas sin, is i nGaeltacht Iarthuaisceart Thír Chonaill (Gaoth Dobhair, Rann na Feirste agus Gort a' Choirce, ach i nGaoth Dobhair go háiríd) a d’fhoghlaim mé Gaeilg, is ansin a d’fhoghlaim mé ’n fuaimniú sin. Cá háit a bhfuil tú i dTír Chonaill? munab as an iarthuaisceart thú, ní hionadh gur aistíoch leat m’fhuaimniú: tá fuaimniú difriúil i nGleann Cholm Cille, i dTeilinn, mar shampla.

Cad é ’tá aistíoch agat in m’fhuaimniú?

He's a Breton, who spent a while in Gaoth Dobhair and learnt Irish there.

Chan fheicim cad é ’n duifear, más Briotánach nó fear as BÁC nó as Meiriceá mé! A Aonghuis, ’bhfuil blas Briotánach ar mo chuid Gaeilge, dar leat? Ní dóigh liom é ! :-)

Cibé ar bith ní féidir a ráidht go bhfuil blas Béarla agamsa, ba chóra a ráidht go bhfuil blas na Gaeilge ar mo chuid Béarla.

Cuir sé ceist, d'fhreagair mé. Tharla sé gur thrasnaigh do fhreagra mo cheann.

Tá blas abháirín coimhthíoch - ní fuaimniú - ar na ceachtanna úd, i gcomparáid leis an méid a chloisim ar Cuideachta gach maidin, abair.

Cha dtuigim do chaint. "blas abháirín coimhthíoch"???

Tá coras fuaime Thír Chonaill go beacht cruinn ag Lughaidh, níos fearr ná cuid mho/r i dTír Chonaill féin. Agus tugann tuin na Fraincise éagsúlacht úr do Ghaeilge Uladh!

Agus an tuin sin an méid atá i gceist agam.
In ainm Chroim, cheapfá go raibh mé tar éis feallmharú a dhéanamh air.

Tuin na Fraincise? Níl tuin na Fraincise ar mo chuid Gaeilge (nó chan mórán, siocair nár úrt múinteoir ar bith liom ariamh é )! Dá mbeadh, bheadh sé uafásach, creid mé. Ar chuala tú ariamh Francach a’ labhairt i mBéarla? :-D Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an blas sin agam ’s mé ’labhairt i nGaeilg. Cibé ar bith, tá blas Béarla ag a’ chuid is mó do na daoiní eile a rinn taifeadtaí Gaeilge ar an idirlíon... ní fearr blas Béarla ná blas Francach ar a’ Ghaeilg ;-)

Is minic a labhair mé le múinteoirí Gaeilge anseo agus shílfeadh siad i gcónaí gurb as Tír Chonaill mé nuair a labhraim Gaeilg.

Rud eile ’tá ann, b’fhéidir: tá mé ’léamh na gceachtann sin. Dá mbeinn a’ labhairt go nádúrtha, bheadh blas difriúil agam (ceol eile leis na habairtí). Tarlann sin le cainteoirí dúchais na Gaeltachta fosta: níl a’ ceol céanna leis na habairtí nuair a bíos siad a’ léamh agus nuair a bíos siad a’ labhairt go nádúrtha. Éist le "Caisleáin Óir" a bhfuil téip déanta dó le bean as Gaoth Dobhair agus cluinfidh tú é.

quote:

Ar chuala tú ariamh Francach a’ labhairt i mBéarla?

Chuala, go minic. Bhíos, agus táim ag obair le Francaigh sách minic.

Pé scéal é, ní rud mór atá ann. Ní fiú bheith ag argóint faoi. Rinne tú jab maith, agus sin sin.

Some of the voiceless stops could use a little stronger aspiration (one thing that's easier for English-speakers than for French-speakers or French-and-Breton-speakers). That's about the only thing that gives away Lughaidh's continental origin. The aspiration is there sometimes; but when it's not, "peann" sounds rather like a Scottish Gaelic "beann," for example.

Lughaidh's pronunciation is very, very close to that of a native speaker of the dialect that he speaks, because he's gone about learning it the right way, and he'll probably get even better at it. As he said elsewhere, he's "just serious" — and that's what it takes.

Some of the voiceless stops could use a little stronger aspiration (one thing that's easier for English-speakers than for French-speakers or French-and-Breton-speakers).

Actually, old Breton speakers do use aspirate initial p, k and t sometimes (especially to emphasize words)... ;-)

That's about the only thing that gives away Lughaidh's continental origin. The aspiration is there sometimes; but when it's not, "peann" sounds rather like a Scottish Gaelic "beann," for example.

There's no such aspiration in Donegal Irish except maybe in younger speakers' Irish, because of the influence of English. I try to pronounce as the seanchaithe do, and they don't aspirate any consonant (listen to John Ghráinne, for example). That aspiration is a new thing in Irish, older speakers don't do it. There are others features that younger Donegal speakers have, like prononcing slender t and d like English ch and j, pronouncing "ao" as a long i, etc. I don't do that because as I said, I try to pronounce as the seanchaithe do (they use palatalised t and d, and a strange throat vowel for "ao" -- actually a centralised "i").

Lughaidh's pronunciation is very, very close to that of a native speaker of the dialect that he speaks, because he's gone about learning it the right way, and he'll probably get even better at it. As he said elsewhere, he's "just serious" — and that's what it takes.

Grma. Ghním mo dhícheall.

"There's no such aspiration in Donegal Irish"

If there weren't, the Donegal phonemes /p/, /k/, /t/ would be identical to the Scottish Gaelic phonemes /b/, /g/, /d/, and I don't think that's the case.

The p in speal, the c in scéal and the t in stiall are not (strongly) aspirated. The p in peile, the c in ciall and the t in tír are.

Of course, we're talking about degrees of aspiration. Not quite enough? Just enough? A little too much? The goal is to get it just right in every context.

Anyway, I certainly will listen to John Ghráinne some more:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/index.sh tml

>>The p in speal, the c in scéal and the t in stiall are not (strongly) aspirated. The p in peile, the c in ciall and the t in tír are.

Quite strangely, this is exactly what happens in English...

>"There's no such aspiration in Donegal Irish"

If there weren't, the Donegal phonemes /p/, /k/, /t/ would be identical to the Scottish Gaelic phonemes /b/, /g/, /d/, and I don't think that's the case.

No, Irish /p, k, t/ are unvoiced, /b, d, g/ are voiced. In Scottish Gaelic, all stops are unvoiced except the initial ones (actually they are unvoiced as well in some dialects), the difference is:
p is aspirated, b isn't, c is aspirated, g isn't, etc.

So:

Irish p /p/, b /b/, t /t/, d /d/, c /k/, g /g/
Scottish Gaelic p /ph, hp/, b /p/, etc.

Example: tapaidh is ~[thahpi] in Scottish, [tapi] in Irish. Abair is [apər´] in Scottish, [abər´] in Irish, etc.

The p in speal, the c in scéal and the t in stiall are not (strongly) aspirated. The p in peile, the c in ciall and the t in tír are.

That is an English pronounciation rule. It isn't true in traditional Gaeltacht Irish, at least in Donegal.

A Pheadair, a chara, éist le John Ghráinne agus cluinfidh tú a chuid t, p, c agus níl análú ar bith ina ndiaidh...

"That is an English pronounciation rule."

That is an Irish pronunciation rule. That's why they used to write easbog, sgeul/sgéal, misde, but changed the spellings to easpag, scéal, miste. See what the dialect studies say about it, and discuss it with the Donegal native-speaker linguists. What else can I say?

That's why they used to write easbog, sgeul/sgéal, misde, but changed the spellings to easpag, scéal, miste.

Before the Classical spellings you've given, in Middle and Old Irish you had epscop, scél... for "miste" i don't know the old spelling, must be with a t anyway.

See what the dialect studies say about it, and discuss it with the Donegal native-speaker linguists.

I trust what I hear more than what i read about pronounciation. There are many things about Irish pronounciation that can't be found in any book so far, and that I have discovered through listening to native Gaeltacht speakers.
Listen to John Ghráinne...

Let me put it another way: the Irish voiceless stops, when not immediately preceded by s or ch, are more forcefully articulated, or exploded with greater energy, than their counterparts in such languages as French. As I said, you do that sometimes in your Irish, but not consistently. More later...

What make them sound more forcefully articulated is the velarisation (in the case of broad consonants), I think, and maybe the stress that is on these syllables (when the word begins with t-, p-, c-, since most words are stressed on the first syllable in Ulster Irish). Slender unvoiced stops are not forcefully articulated.



(Message edited by lughaidh on December 08, 2005)

"Tenues. (p, p' ; t, t' ; k, k').
...
Tenues i dtús focail agus i n-áiteacha eile.
Bíonn siad-san níos láidre ná a macasamhail sa Ghearmáinis, agus cluintear sleamhnán análach láidir ar a lorg."

— Heinrich Wagner, "Gaeilge Theilinn"
____________________

• "in Middle and Old Irish you had epscop, scél..."

Yes, but easbog, sgeul and the like were in use for a long time, for a reason.

• miste/meiste < measa de
____________________

"A voiceless plosive is said to be aspirated when it is followed by relatively prominent expiration; e.g. p in L'æpuxi: leapthacha is accompanied by a slight puff of breath. This aspiration is a common feature of voiceless plosive consonants. It is absent in the case of a consonant preceded by one of the voiceless fricatives s, s', or x; when under-differentiation of the voiced and voiceless qualities takes place, e.g. smaxt smacht, as't'ux aisteach, oxtur ochtar, skaLta:n sgalltán."

— Seán de Búrca, "The Irish of Tourmakeady, Co. Mayo"

"What the proper transcription of plosives following s, ∫, should be is a rather unsettled question in Irish. Modern Irish orthography shows hesitation between p, t, c, and b, d, g, in such cases, e.g. between scéal and sgéal, just as it hesitates between t and d following ch, e.g. between seacht and seachd. Phonetically considered, however, it really amounts to the same whether one writes c or g, t or d, in such words ¹.

"Plosives preceded by s, ∫ are partially voiced in medial position following a stressed vowel, when a vowel follows either in the same word or initially in a word following in close sequence, e.g. iasgán, bhí iasg ann. Similarly a dental plosive preceded by x is partially voiced in the same circumstances, e.g. uэxdэr, uachtar, din'э boxd aN, duine bocht ann. Plosives preceded by s, ∫ in initial position before a stressed vowel are unvoiced, e.g. sgel' sgoil.
__________________________________________________

¹ " d differs from t (as g from c) in having voice. t as a compensation has greater force of exhalation, and a more vigorous articulation. Following s, t would be unaspirated, and would lose its extra force of exhalation. In the same position d would be unvoiced. Thus, the essential differences between the two being removed, they become indistinguishable."

— Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, "The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo"

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on December 09, 2005)

Ceart go leor, ach nuair a éistimse le cainteoirí as Tír Chonaill cha gcluinim an t-análú sin, sin a’ fáth nach bhfuaimnim é. Éist le John Ghráinne. ’gCluineann tusa é?

Scríobh Lughaidh:
"Tuin na Fraincise? Níl tuin na Fraincise ar mo chuid Gaeilge (nó chan mórán, siocair nár úrt múinteoir ar bith liom ariamh é )! Dá mbeadh, bheadh sé uafásach, creid mé. Ar chuala tú ariamh Francach a’ labhairt i mBéarla? :-D Ní dóigh liom go bhfuil an blas sin agam ’s mé ’labhairt i nGaeilg. Cibé ar bith, tá blas Béarla ag a’ chuid is mó do na daoiní eile a rinn taifeadtaí Gaeilge ar an idirlíon... ní fearr blas Béarla ná blas Francach ar a’ Ghaeilg ;-)"

Tá a fhios agat nach do cháineadh a bhí mé, a Lughaidh! Níl ann ach go mbriseann an dúchas trí shúile an chait. Ní shílim féin gur féidir le duine briseadh amach go hiomlán óna dhúchas féin...agus baineann sin le i bhfad níos mó ná cúrsaí foghraíochta agus córas fuaime. Is inneall teanga gach béal, agus é múnlaithe de réir tíre, teanga agus ceantair ar leith. Is ionann é agus an fórsa domhantarraingthe; nach bhfeictear ach nach féidir a sheachaint.

Tá an fhoghraíocht go cruinn beacht agat, níos cruinne ná cuid mhór cainteoirí maithe in Éirinn, mé fein ina measc...agus déarfainn dá mbeifeá ag caint go nádúrtha gur lú an tuin Fraincise a bheadh le cluinstin ar do chuid Gaeilge. Ach ní shílim féin gur féidir le duine ar bith éalú go hiomlán óna dhúchas...

Sílim nuair a deirtear le foghlaimeoirí maithe "shíl mé gurbh as Gaoth Dobhair féin thú" go bhfuiltear ag déanamh iontais de chomh cóngarach do chanúint Ghaoth Dobhair agus atá an foghlaimeoir áirithe sin. Níor chuala mise duine riamh i mo shaol, nárbh as Gaoth Dobhair ó dhúchas dó, ag caint go díreach díreach díreach mar a labhródh duine as Gaoth Dobhair. Níl a leithéid de dhuine ann, i mo bharúil féin. Deir cuid mhór daoine liomsa, i ndeisceart na tíre, go síleann siad gur as Tír Chonaill dom i ndiaidh dóibh éisteacht liom ag caint i nGaeilge ar feadh tamaill. Níl duine ná deoraí i dTír Chonaill a déarfadh sin liom...blas ar leith Thír Eoghain atá ar mo chuid Béarla agus Gaeilge...agus ní bhaineann sin le teanga amháin, baineann sé le ceantar ar leith, le dúchas ar leith.

"...cha gcluinim an t-análú sin...’gCluineann tusa é?"

Ní i ndiaidh an chonsain, ach ina láidreacht sin a chluinim é, ag tús a phléasctha.

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on December 09, 2005)

Ach ní shílim féin gur féidir le duine ar bith éalú go hiomlán óna dhúchas...

Tá aithn’ agam ar chupla duine nach bhfuil blas eile ar bith ’s iad a’ labhairt i dteangaidh a d’fhoghlaim siad. Cara do mo chuid a bhfuil Sínis aige, chreidfeá gurb í sin a theangaidh dhúchais, agus duine eile as Meiriceá a bhfuil Fraincis agus Briotáinis gan blas Béarla ar bith aige: is deacair creidbheáil nach cainteoir dúchais é.
Sílim féin go rabh mo bhlas Gaeilge níos fearr nuair a bhí mé in Éirinn.

Tús a phléasctha? Is é sin roimhe’n chonsan? Munab fhuil sé roimhe, caithfidh gur ina dhiaidh atá sé. Maidir leis na consain phléascacha, uair ineacht stopann tú ’n t-aer, mar sin cha dtig leat análú ná rud ar bith a dhéanamh aige’n am chéarna...

I've been listening to some of the recordings and reading this discussion with a growing sense of confusion. Why all the complaining? These are excellent recordings, I would recommend them to any learner. I agree that it doesn't sound like how people really speaks, but there's a perfectly natural reason for that - anyone recording texts for the benefits of learners will of course use a more level voice than when actually speaking. So the intonation is a bit different from what I've heard in Donegal, but I'm convinced that Lughaidh doesn't speak with that intonation. The last thing this sounds like is a Frenchman reading Irish. I doubt anyone could tell Lughaidh is from France by listening to these recordings. They sound Irish, not French.

These recordings are better than much of the material that's available on the Internet and will definitely benefit learners.

I agree Jonas. For anyone interested in learning Ulster Irish these recordings are indeed very useful. Maith thú a Lughaidh

For the record: I was not complaining.
I merely answered a question, was challenged on my answer and followed up.

I'll say it again:

quote:

Rinne tú jab maith, agus sin sin.

Can we take an 'opensource' atitude to this?

There are only a small secton here who can pronounce irish (Mick Rua, Seosamh Mac Muiri, Lughaidh, Peadar, Jonas, (anyone else?) and I think, myself).

Why don't we put the limited resources to work by having a sample book, or a few bits and pieces that a few of the above list can pronounce and record and then we can put it up on-line, and we can then 'edit' it by POSITIVE feedback + re-recording, not attacks. That way, we can cover differing dialects and differing ability strengths.

For example, I cannot speak native like, so I don;t have the rythm and intonation perfect (or at least I cannot yet do tradional -I think younger speakers nowadays raise the tone at the end of sentances like englihs speakers do). I can tho provide instructions for learning the sounds individually, and someone who is native or very good can do the more naturalistic style.

Together, we could create the best audio resources on the net, and daltai could then host it when it is finalised with the provisio that it is a) conemara, b) donegal etc

If it really goes well, those who know the dialects could modify the books to be dialectal, but lets start small first.

Should scan the books first and get them into .doc format, then we could modify the sentences and words so that they are in our dialects.

Just for the record folks, in case anyone is interpreting anything I might have said as criticism...no way!

Obair iontach.

What "books" are you referring to?

Caoimhín

As regards books, I was refering to a more constrcutive use of material. The book I refered to has words on their own. All I will do is change the pattern such that the level of complexity is kept, but no copyright is broken.

That can't be said for other books tho...

Has anyone mentioned that Lughaidh has a very pleasant voice? That's a factor that is more important for learners using recorded materials than one might imagine.

Thanx Dennis. But now I'd like to know what do the female Daltaí members think about my voice! ;-)

Regarding Dennis' comment:
I think it's such a large factor because audio recordings/radio programs/podcasts involve only one sense, and so are in some ways more 'intimate' than seeing the person in person or on video. So mistakes are much more obvious, but the pleasant aspects of someone's voice can also be better appreciated.

And a female comment for Lughaidh:
First, grma for the recordings. Your voice is quite pleasant. Very easy to listen to.

That said, I've been so disappointed ever since I found out that Domhnall's picture isn't of, well, Domhnall. What if I found out that wasn't your voice but one of your friends? :)

There’s no man who has Irish in the place I am (Brittany), and even in whole France I don’t think there are many. So, it is my voice :-)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/education/ceanndubhrann/page01.s html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/northernireland/irish/blas/media/cd11.ram

"Tháinig sé go Rann na Feirste agus ar ndóighe, ins an am a dtáinig Seán go Rann na Feirste, ní raibh bealach mór ann ná bealach coise ach oiread ach ag léimtigh ó thurtóg go turtóg!"

Ní abraíonn sé
"bealach c-Hoise...ó thurt-Hóg go t-Hurt-Hóg,"
ná
"bealach coise...ó thurtóg go turtóg,"
ach
"bealach coise...ó thurtóg go turtóg."

Sé, t-annaí normálta leathana atá ann, níl análú ina ndiaidh, níl siad cosúil le t-annaí an Bhéarla agus níl níos mó análaithe i ndiaidh cuid na Gaeilge sin ná i ndiaidh cuid na Fraincise, leis an fhírinne a ráidht. Tá mé ’meas go bhfuaimnimse ar an dóigh sin iad...