Looking up "to dance" in my brand new Irish-English dictionary, I found "bheith ag damhsa"

now:

1/ [verbal noun] followed by [article+noun+adjective] :
"ag ithe an uill dheirg" (genitive)
but [verbal noun] followed by [noun+adjective] :
"ag ithe ull dearg" (no genitive)

2/ [noun] followed by [(article+)noun+adjective] :
"croí (an) uill dheirg" (genitive in both cases) (is that correct?)

3/ if "damhsa" is a noun, how would one say "dancing a little jig" and "dancing the little jig"? ("ag damhsa...")

I vote for treating "damhsa" as a verbal noun just like "ithe", thus
"ag damhsa válsa mall".

BTW, it's "úll". The long vowel comes not (optionally) from the 'll', but from the historical contraction of two syllables into one: ubhall > úll.

p.s. "ag damhsa" could also somewhat exceptionally mean "at a dance" (being present at the occasion), in which case it would belong to your category (2) above.

To answer Max's question, yes you're correct -- you have:

ag ithe an úill dheirg

ag ithe úll dearg (No genitization)

croí an úill dheirg

croí úill dheirg

quote:

croí úill dheirg

It seems odd to me to lenite the adjective when the noun isn't. "Úll" can't lenite, so using a noun that can, would you write:

a) praghas cairr deirg
b) praghas cairr dheirg
c) praghas chairr dheirg

Séard a déarfainn féin ná "praghas carr dearg"! Ach dá mbeadh orm "Gaeilge Shárcheart" a chur air, scríobhfainn leagan (a).

p.p.s. The two meanings of "ag damhsa" should be clearly distinguished in speech:

a) ag damhsa /@ daus@/ = dancing

b) ag damhsa /ig' daus@/ = at a dance

A Dennis,

Could you or anyone on the Daltai Boards help me with a translation problem that I have? Your latest posting is an example of what causes me the biggest problem I have when trying to speak Irish.

For example, if I want to say " I was at a dance last night but I didn't dance " (meaning that I was present but didn't get up to dance), I would say " Bhi me ag damhsa areir ach ni raibh me ag damhsa ". This is an obvious contradiction.

I was born, raised and educated ( in Irish ) in the galltacht. I passed my exams and got high marks. I have been studying Irish continually at home for many years
but whenever I try to speak Irish, I keep running into snags and find that I cannot put a sentence together in an intelligible manner. I have to fall back on bearlachas all the time which, as you can well imagine, doesn't make me very popular with the purists.

So in order to say in Irish " I was at a dance last night, but I didn't dance ", I came up with the folowing suggestions: -

Bhi me ag damhsa areir ach ni dhearna me aon dreas damhsa.

Chuaigh me chuig damhsa areir ach ni raibh me ag damhsa.

D'fhreastal me ar damhsa areir ach ni dhearna me aon rinnce.

These are just wild guesses on my part.
I could give many more examples but I think the above few are sufficient. Please excuse my clumsy awkward Irish but that is precisely my problem. Learning proverbs and exotic picturesque sayings which are usually too low frequency are of no help to me in common everyday colloquial conversation. None of the Irish books that I have (and I have many) ever deal with these specific translation problems. I remember that whenever we asked the teachers how to say a certain thing in Irish they would invariably give us a bearlachas translation.

I would certainly appreciate any assistance and advice which you might wish to give me.

Thanking you in advance.

TSJ

Nó
Bhí mé ag damhsa aréir, ach ní dhéarna mé aon damhsa.

But I think the context makes it clear, and the contradiction is only apparent. Probably the reason books do not deal with it, is that fluent speakers do not compare what they are saying to english, and therefore don't see the apparent contradictions which worry you.

Bhí mé ag damhsa aréir, ach níor dhamhsaigh mé.

Thank you very much, Aonghus. This helps me a lot.

A word about bearlachas (and the verbal noun) which may be of some interest. I was conversing in Irish with a native speaker from the Gaeltacht at an Irish gathering when I noticed that she had no seat, so I started to look for a chair for her. When she asked me what I was doing I said " Ta me ag lorg cathaoireach duit". She did not understand so I said " Ta me ag cuartu cathaoireach duit". She still did not understand.
So I asked her (in English) "How do you say in Irish -I am looking for a chair for you". To which she replied - " There are two ways you can say it - either - " Ta me ag look-ail ar an chathaoir or Ta me ag sursh-ail ar an chathaoir ". She then explained that sursh was the Gaeltacht pronunciation of the English word search.
When I asked the lady how come she didn't understand the way I had originally said it, she replied - ' I don't like that new Irish". Now there are those who would recommend that I model my Irish on the speech of native speakers. I am beginning to have some doubts about the wisdom of this advice.
Any comments?

A Mhax,

Seo smaoineamh eile a rith liom. Is dócha go bhfuil a fhios agat cheana féin, ach is minic a dhéantar idirdhealú sa ghinideach ar ainmfhocal agus ainmfhocal briathartha a bhfuil an chuma chéanna orthu. Mar shampla:

déanamh = doing, making (verbal noun)

verbal noun genitive: lucht a dhéanta = (lit.) people of its making = the people who make it

déanamh = make, manufacture, construction, etc. (noun)

noun genitive: costas an déanaimh = the cost of construction

Níl sé seo fíor i gcás "damhsa", ach faightear an t-idirdhealú seo go forleathan: léamh (léite, léimh), ól (ólta, óil), caitheamh (caite, caithimh), etc.

A Dhennis,

Do you mean that the form "damhsa" stands for both the noun "dance" and the verbal noun "dancing"?


And what about "lorg":
- can it be a verb?
- if no, would we have "tá mé ag lorg cathaoireach bige" or ""tá mé ag lorg cathaoir bheag"?
- if yes, is it possible to find a word that works in this construction and which is nothing but a noun?

When I asked the lady how come she didn't understand the way I had originally said it, she replied - ' I don't like that new Irish". Now there are those who would recommend that I model my Irish on the speech of native speakers. I am beginning to have some doubts about the wisdom of this advice.

Learn both: the Gaeltacht vocabulary and the words you learn in books. And use one or the other according to the person you're talking to. Anyway, I think an older speaker would have understood your sentences and would have known it wasn't "new Irish". Bheith ag lúkáil ar rud éigin & bheith ag suirseáil ar rud éigin aren’t English (for you say "look for", and these Irish expressions mean "look on"), just English loanwords used in Irish expressions. Remember that these loanwords are natural, in English you have 2/3 of the words that come from French or Latin, Irish has much less loanwords, even in today's Gaeltacht speech.

Do you mean that the form "damhsa" stands for both the noun "dance" and the verbal noun "dancing"?

Yes.

And what about "lorg":
- can it be a verb?

I don't think so. It's just a verbal noun that can't be conjugated. You use it with the verb "to be". Tá mé ag lorg rud éigin = i’m looking for sthg.

- if no, would we have "tá mé ag lorg cathaoireach bige" or ""tá mé ag lorg cathaoir bheag"?

I'd say it is considered as a verbal noun so "tá mé ag lorg cathaoir bheag".

- if yes, is it possible to find a word that works in this construction and which is nothing but a noun?

I don't think so, after "to be", i think every noun like that would function as a verbal noun, even if it can never be conjugated.

Is briathar lorg: cé nach minic a bhaintear feidhm as - féach an Foclóir Beag

lorg (lorg) Dearfach aistreach/neamhaistreach

quote:

And what about "lorg": - can it be a verb?

It's a common verb in Scottish Gaelic. I don't think it's so common in Irish. I don't normally use it except as a noun: ar lorg etc. FGB does show it as a verb, but without any conjugated examples. (An bhfuil an foclóir sin agat?) But I googled "lorgfaidh" and came up with a number of examples, including this:

Lorgaigí an Tiarna, sibhse uile,
a dhaoine uirísle na tíre,
a chomhlíonann a reacht.
Lorgaigí an fhíréantacht,
lorgaigí an uirísle;
b’fhéidir go bhfaigheadh sibh dídean
ar lá dhíbheirg an Tiarna.
Fágfaidh mé pobal bocht uiríseal i do lár
agus lorgfaidh fuílleach Iosrael dídean
in ainm an Tiarna.

Tá "cuardaigh" níos coitianta

cuardaigh (cuardach) Dearfach aistreach/neamhaistreach

Lorg is closer in meaninmg to track, cuardaigh to search.

TSJ, I wonder was she winding you up? Could she follow other things you said?

>>- if yes, is it possible to find a word that works in this construction and which is nothing but a noun?

>>I don't think so, after "to be", i think every noun like that would function as a verbal noun, even if it can never be conjugated.


Does everyone agree with Lughaidh?

And if yes, could someone give an example? (So far, the examples given have to be discarded since we can find a corresponding verb: lorg>lorg / damhsa>damhsaigh, and thus have to treat them as verbal nouns)

The noun "súil" comes to mind. It's never conjugated as a verb, but it functions, as Lughaidh says, as a verbal noun in expressions such as:

ag súil leat = expecting you
ag súil go mbeidh tú linn = hoping that you'll join us

But whether it's a fully paid-up verbal noun is open to discussion. For example, is it possible to say "lucht súile" = people who expect/hope = the hopeful (ones), where "súile" functions as the genitive of the verbal noun "súil"?

Lucht súile? Ní doigh liom é. But "Lucht dóchais" would be common. The eye meaning of súil would probably trump the hope meaning.

Sampla eile: caint. Tá an briathair "caintigh" ann, ach sin focal eile a bhfuil an t-ainm briathartha "caintiú" aige. Deirtear "ag caint", ach céard faoi "lucht cainte na Gaeilge"??

Agus céard faoin múnla seo:

a)

ag codladh > dul a chodladh
ag snámh > dul a shnámh

b)

ag caint > dul a chaint leo

Tagann réamhfhocal i ndiaidh "caint" agus "súil" de ghnáth: ag caint le, ag súil le, etc., ach is féidir "ag caint Gaeilge" a rá freisin. Céard faoi "ba mhaith liom Gaeilge a chaint"?

Dúirt TSJ

quote:

Ta me ag lorg cathaoireach duit.

Is féidir go bhfuil "cathaoireach" ró-cheart sa chomhthéacs seo, cosúil le "whom did you see?" i mBéarla an lae inniu. Déarfainn, is dócha, "tá mé ag cuartú (nó cuardach) cathaoir dhuit", nó "tá mé ag iarraidh cathaoir a fháil dhuit."

Rócheart? Bhuel, ní rócheart atá sé ach caighdeánach agus seanaimseartha b’fhéidir, ach ní rócheart. Deirfeadh na seandaoiní é, gan amhras.

Deirfinnse "tá mé ’gabháil a chuartú cathaoir(each) duit".

Cuardach -- cuardaigh is the standard form
In Ulster we use cuartú -- cuartaigh.

Maidir le "lorgaim": má tá sé ann, níor chuala mé ná níor léigh mé a leithéid ariamh.

Ar tús, ciallaíonn "lorg" "track". Féach Briotáinis lerc’h = track (àr-lerc'h = "on the track" = after), Coirnis lergh = track. Chan cuimhin liom an bhfuil cognate leis i mBreathnais.

>> ach is féidir "ag caint Gaeilge" a rá freisin.

Is "Gaeilge" in the genitive here?
Shall we have "ag caint Fraincise"?

quote:

ach ní rócheart.

Ach céard a chiallaíonn rócheart? Níl sé san fhoclóir. Níl "cuartú cathaoireach" hypercorrect (attempting to be correct and overshooting the mark, usually by false analogy with a correct form) ar chor ar bith, ach ní "hypercorrect" a bhí ar intinn agam! Just "exceedingly correct, excessively correct by current standards". An gá duit a bheith ag beachtú i gcónaí cónaí, a Lughaidh?

With respect, Dennis, I think you're wrong as regards "déanta" and "déanaimh".

You implied that "déanaimh" is the genitive case of the normal noun, while "déanta" is the genitive case of the verbal noun.

I'm about 90% sure that it works as follows:

"déanaimh" is the genitive case of both the noun and the verbal noun.

So where does "déanta" come in to play? Only when the verbal noun is to be genitized, and is also followed by a noun which is to be genitized. Thus you'd have:

(1) Verbal noun in the genitive, but which is not followed by another noun which is to be genitized:

Níor éirigh leis d'ainneoin an déanaimh.
He didn't succeed despite the doings.

(2) Normal noun in the genitive. Here let's say it means the "construction":

Ar chuala tú go ndearnadh an cáca? Bhí siad ag scrúdú an déanaimh. (Though you could argue here that this could be the verbal noun)

(3) This is the special one -- where you have a verbal noun in the genitive which is also followed by a noun in the genitive:

an lucht foghlam
luch foghlamtha na Gaeilge

an lucht óil
lucht ólta na fíona

an lucht léimh
luch léite na leabhar

an cailín crú
cailín crúite na mbó

I believe the possessive pronouns take this usage also:

lucht a ólta (refferring to "alcohol")
lucht a déanta (refferring to "work")
lucht a gcrúite (refferring to "cows)

Not also that there's no séimhiú on this genitized verbal noun (contrary to how things normally are, as in: ainm mhac an fhir)

Well I'm pretty sure that's how it works, although I'm open to correction.

A Mhaix,

Yes, "Gaeilge" was in the genitive case. Similarly, you'd have:

ag labhairt Fraincise
ag labhairt Gearmáinise

Is aidiacht déanta, de réir an Foclóir Bhig.
AINM BRIATH.
déanamh
AIDIACHT BHRIATH.
déanta

Táim a fhios agam, a Aonghuis, gurb aidiacht í "déanta" -- ach... cosúil leis an gcaoi inar aidiacht í "dúnta", is foirm d'ainmfhocal í freisin, mar shampla:

The door is closed.
Tá an doras dúnta _{= adjective}.

He was closing the door.
Bhí sé ag dúnadh an dorais.

We were talking about the closure of the case.
Bhímid ag caint faoi dhúnadh an cháis.

We were talking about the closure date of the case.
Bhímid ag caint faoi dháta dúnta _{= genitive of "dúnadh"} an cháis.

Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla (Ó Dónaill):

déanamh m. (g[enitive]s[ingular] as s[ubstantive] -aimh, as v[erbal] n[oun] -nta).

Mura bhfuil an foclóir seo agat, iarr ar Dhaidí na Nollag é! :-)

FnaB, your category (3) above does not hold water. The genitive of a verbal noun does not need to be followed by another noun in the genitive to exist. I think the following example suffices to make the point, although I can certainly give you more:

One does not say "lucht léimh", one says:

lucht léite = readers, readership, reading public

"Chuir mé ceist ar mo lucht léite cad é an dóchas a bheadh acu as an Fhrainc dá gcluinneadh siad go raibh aon seanmóir amháin i bhFraincis in Eaglais Notre Dame lá i gceann na bliana."
(Séamus Ó Grianna, Saoghal Corrach)

NB: He did not write "lucht mo léite", which would be equivalent to a following genitive.

Ach céard a chiallaíonn rócheart? Níl sé san fhoclóir.

Bhain mé úsáid as siocair gur bhain tusa úsáid as in do phost roimhe.

Níl "cuartú cathaoireach" hypercorrect (attempting to be correct and overshooting the mark, usually by false analogy with a correct form) ar chor ar bith, ach ní "hypercorrect" a bhí ar intinn agam! Just "exceedingly correct, excessively correct by current standards".

Why exceedingly correct? It isn't, it is just correct.

An gá duit a bheith ag beachtú i gcónaí cónaí, a Lughaidh?

'S gá, nuair a tchím meancógaí.

regarding " ag cuartu cathaoireach:

You will find : "ag cuartu" with the meaning of "I'm looking for" in Aonad 17, Page 100 of " Now you're talking ". O'Donall's FGB gives " cathaoireach " as the genitive of " cathaoir ". It is stated in Irish grammar books that an unqualified noun takes the genitive case (cathaoireach) if preceded by a verbal noun (ag cuartu).
So what's all this talk about hypercorrection? By the way, since I am a non-native speaker of Irish I learn the language from books and their accompanying recordings. I have no access to native speakers or even fluent non-native speakers. All the materials with which I study were published in recent years so it is fairly safe to assume that they are up to date and do not include archaic terms.

It's strange but people usually critisize me for speaking incorrect Irish. This is the first time that I have ever been told that my Irish is hypercorrect. Can't win for losing. But I must be making progres. What learners need is encouragement and not continuous nitpicking. Perhaps a little praise (even if not fully deserved) might give those who are struggling to learn the language that little bit of encouragement which they need in order to counteract the enormous amount of negativity which learners of Irish have to face at every turn.

Aonghus wrote: "I wonder was she winding you up"

Maybe so. Perhaps she was and then again perhaps she wasn't. However this is mere supposition. Either way, I find this to be a somewhat facile explanation.

" Could she follow other things you said?'

Yes. The only sentence which she did not understand was " Ta me ag lorg cathaoireach duit ". I have illustrated above that this is correct Irish. Or hypercorrect if you insist. But don't you think it rather strange that a well-educated native speaker would not understand such a simple statement in correct Irish ?

TSJ,

"hypercorrect" means "incorrect". (as Dennis put it: "attempting to be correct and overshooting the mark, usually by false analogy with a correct form")
So what you said was just (very) correct.

---------------

Back to were I was...

- "caint" could be analyzed as a variant of the verbal noun "caintiú" (homonymous with the noun "caint")

- "súil" is a noun, but is followed by a preposition in such a construction ("ag súil leis...")

I am correct in thinking that we'd have "ag caint Fraincis álainn" and not "ag caint Fraincise áille"?

Although I wouldn't discard "súil" and "caint", does anyone think of a noun that doesn't look like a verbal noun and that is not follow by a preposition?

quote:

What learners need is encouragement and not continuous nitpicking. Perhaps a little praise (even if not fully deserved) might give those who are struggling to learn the language that little bit of encouragement which they need...

Mea culpa. Níor chuir mé do mhothúcháin san áireamh. Ní raibh mé ag iarraidh ach fáth a chur leis an bhfadhb a bhí agat nuair a bhí tú ag caint leis an mbean sin.

quote:

But don't you think it rather strange that a well-educated native speaker would not understand such a simple statement in correct Irish ?

Here's a story about two brothers who grew up in Dublin and learned good Irish in school. One went to America. He maintained his Irish and later in life began to write in the language, and his stories got published. The other brother remained in Dublin. On one of the Yank's many trips home, he and his brother went to Corca Dhuibhne, and spoke Irish with the locals. The Yank's Irish was slow, deliberate, and grammatically correct. The Dub's Irish was sloppy and Dublin-accented, but he chatted along in it without giving it much thought. The Yank was soon abashed to realize that the locals had trouble following his carefully constructed Irish, but understood his brother's wretched blurted-out Irish just fine. Is é an Poncán a d'inis an scéilín seo dom, agus tá súil agam nach ngoillfidh sé ar éinne anseo.

"And what about "lorg": - can it be a verb?"
"It's a common verb in Scottish Gaelic."

It is, and means "to find" whereas sireadh is "to seek, look for." And Ulster has siortughadh, siortáil, tiortáil for "searching" (sometimes "rummaging"):
____________________

Shiortaigheamar thart fá'n áit ar feadh tamaill féacháil an rachadh againn a theacht ar rud ar bith a bhéarfadh le fios dúinn goidé an cineál duine a bhí san fhear a chaith fhad 'na chomhnuidhe leis féin san áit uaignigh seo.
_____

Siortóchaidh siad na coilíneachta uilig 'á iarraidh, go h-áirid ar siocair gur díoladh ar 'e dheas de trí chéad punt é.
_____

B'iongantach a' toil a bhí aige do bheith a' siortughadh fríd a' cheanntar a' siubhal dá chois nó ar mhuin capaill.
_____

Bhí m'athair ag siortughadh leis ar lorg eólais. Agus chuireamar Warrigal agus Bilí Óg amach ar fud na tíre le n-a fhagháil amach cad chuige a rabh rudaí ag gabhail in ár n-aghaidh mar seo.
_____

Shiortuigh mé féin thart go bhfuair mé an diallaid taoibhe agus srian ins an tseomra ina mbíodh an ughaim.

— Domhnall 'ac Grianna, "Gadaidheacht le Láimh Láidir"
____________________

Acht b'éascaidh na pánaidhthe iad, an oidhche sin, ag gabháil 'un an tSealgáin gur fheann siad a's gur shiortáil siad teach Phroinnsiais Uí Bhraonáin ag cuartughadh cam stilleadh.

—Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Mám Eile as an Mhála Chéadna"
__________

Shiortáil siad puill, tuir, a's díogacha, a's rinne cuartughadh dúthrachtach.
_____

Acht ní raibh a dhath againn ar son na siortála a's b'éigean damh-sa a ghabháil 'un an bhaile ceanntárnocht.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Rácáil agus Scuabadh"
____________________

Is iomdha duine riamh a chaith tamall a' siortughadh, agus ag iarraidh eolais fá'n chabhlach seo.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Bean Ruadh de Dhálach"
__________

Agus dá dtéighinn isteach sa teach sin agus dá mbeadh cead siortuighthe agam, ní fhuil a fhios agam an bhfuighinn Moran's French Grammar nó “Lettres de mon Moulin” caithte i n-íochtar bocsa agus iad daithte ag deannach na mbliadhantach?

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, "Le Clap-Sholus"
____________________

Cuireadh marcaigh amach bealach Árd Mhacha, go ndéanadh siad siortughadh agus faisnéis an rabh an námhaid ar na gaobhair.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Eoghan Ruadh Ó Néill"
__________

D'éirigh sí agus chuaidh sí suas chun an tseomra, agus bhí sí tamall ag siortughadh.

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Pádraic Ó Conaire agus Aistí Eile"
__________

Bhí sí ag siortughadh san chófra, agus bhí gliogar cosamhail le gliogar airgid ghil le cluinstin.

—Seosamh 'ac Grianna, "Dith Céille Almayer"
____________________

D'éirigh mé de léim a's chuaidh a shiortughadh agus a smúrthacht thart go bhfeicinn an dtiocfadh liom déanamh amach cá raibh mé.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Mám as mo Mhála"
__________

Fan go díreach go gcluin an bheirt agaibh seo: Chonnaic sé an ceathrar cailín is maiseamhla i dTír Eoghain nó shiortuigh sé an chonndae.
_____

Siortuigheadh an teach annsin ó chreataí go h-urlár a's ó cheann go ceann acht ní bhfuarthas leithghiní amháin.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, "Crathadh an Phocáin"
____________________

Chuartuigh siad an teach ó bhun go barr, a ghiolla seo; thiortáil siad priosannaí agus cófraí agus leabthacha; rinne siad siortughadh a rabh suaithnidheacht air fán tsiopa agus fá bhoithighthe agus fá chródhannaí; ach dheamhan duine aca a leag súil ar an chomhlaigh bhig sa tsíleáil.

— Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh, "Thiar i nGleann Ceo"

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/

(Message edited by Peadar_Ó_Gríofa on December 04, 2005)

I'd definitely say:

Táim ag lorg caothaoireach dhuit

instead of:

Táim ag lorg caothaoir duit


Also, there's plenty of people that say "whom"... you don't have to be posh to use it -- I myself use it from time to time, especially in my written speech.

I would see the difference between "lorg" and "cuardach" as being in the degree of certainty of finding a result:

Má tá me ag lorg ruda, táim sách cinnte go bhfaigheadh mé é, má tá mé á chuartú, seans nach bhfaigheadh mé é.

Also, I can lorg something from somebody - táim ag lorg ardú páigh - but cuairtím liom fhéin.

I seem to have caught Domhnalls macarónachas.

TSJ,
I realise my explanation was facile; I was wondering if it fit the evidence from your point of view.

seans nach bhfaigheadh mé é.

"Seans nach bhfaighinn é", in ainm Dé!

>> so I said " Ta me ag cuartu cathaoireach duit". She still did not understand.
>> She then explained that sursh was the Gaeltacht pronunciation of the English word search. ..... When I asked the lady how come she didn't understand the way I had originally said it, she replied - ' I don't like that new Irish".
>> But don't you think it rather strange that a well-educated native speaker would not understand such a simple statement in correct Irish ?

- Cuimhnímis gur líonmhaire cainteoirí Ghaeilge na Gaeltachta ná cainteoirí dúchais Ghaeilge na Gaeltachta. Ní hionann an dá rud.
Síleann an bhean thuas gur chainteoir dúchais Gaeilge a bhí inti in am amháin, agus is dóichí gurb ea. Is í an áit a bhfuil an lúb ar lár, go síleann sí sin i dtólamh. Meirg na mblianta atá uirthi, déarfainn, ach ní thuigeann sí go mb'fhéidir gur iarchainteoir dúchais Gaeilge í.

"Och Seosamh, I've lost all my Irish" a dúirt bean amháin liom i ndiaidh scór nó breis blianta. Bíonn colscaradh, imirce, tinneas, méala báis nó briseadh croí eile dá chineál i gceist go hiondúil.

Braithim féin gur mó an dream isteach chun na Gaeilge ná amach chun an Bhéarla ar an tslí sin. "Ní raibh a fhios agam go raibh Gaeilge ag mo chol ceathrar thall" a dúirt fear Galltachta liom oíche eile. Fear Gaeltachta ba ea a chol ceathrar. Bhí sé tar éis seasamh leis an teanga agus thaobhaigh dream stócach a thiomáin roinnt uaireanta an chloig é le freastal ar Merriman an Gheimhridh. http://www.merriman.ie/scoileanna/geimhreadh.ga

B'shin an chéad chomhrá Gaeilge a bhí ag an mbeirt chol ceathrar. 30 bl. d'aois a bhí fear na Galltachta, measaim.

The story about the two brothers from Dublin who were learning Irish was a downer.

What we need is encouragement.

I thank those of you on this website who give me that encouragement.

I understood it as an attempt at encouragement - labhair í agus mairfidh sí!

Sometimes slowly spoken, careful, correct language (regardless of the language) is harder to follow than spontaneous, slightly incorrect language.

Also, speaking personally, I believe one makes more mistakes when being too careful than when going with the flow.

But either way, if you continue speaking to Gaeltacht speakers you're bound to improve.

quote:

The story about the two brothers from Dublin who were learning Irish was a downer.

Feiceann súil ghruama saol gruama. Bhí an Dub breá sásta agus d'fhoghlaim an Yank rud éigin tábhachtach. Céard atá uait, finscéalta? Más encouragement atá uait, gheobhaidh tú san fhoclóir é idir emptiness agus enlightenment.

A Dennis,

I find that tongue-in-cheek remarks are counter-productive.
How about a little genuine encouragement, please?
It would help me a lot. As an Irishman, born and reared in Ireland I have been subjected to such remarks all my life. If you will permit me to be blunt - I am tired of being put down because of my efforts to speak Irish. By no stretch of the imagination can a simple sentence such as " Ta me ag lorg cathaoireach duit ", which I have shown in a previous posting to come from recently published materials for learners of Irish, be construed as hypercorrect, overshooting the mark, excessively correct, excedingly correct, false analogy. Some people seem to have gotten the impression, quite false, that I uttered the sentence slowly and carefully in an attempt to be perfect. That was not the case. I said it fast without even thinking in English. Why? Because that's the way I learned it from books which are currently available. It seems you have formed a false impression of me based on assumptions which are totally false. Have a heart, Dennis. I'm just trying to speak Irish as best I can. So why do I get this barrage of criticism and snotty remarks every time I open my mouth to say something in Irish? It's enough to turn people away from the study of Irish. It's certainly not conducive to the promotion of The Irish Language. I like to think that you are not aware of the effect which your statements have on other people ( and I am not alone ). This has been a bone of contention in Ireland for a long time. The elitist snobs (or snots as we call them in Dublin) look down their nose at anyone whose Irish does not conform to their idea of correct Irish. So if you want to help spread the use of Irish, please be a little more considerate.

TSJ,

Tá tairiscint agam duit: scríobh chugainn i nGaeilge agus gheobhaidh tú moladh. An bhfuil sé ina mhargadh? Ní nós liom aon rud a cheartú in aon teachtaireacht atá scríofa i nGaeilge anseo mura bhfuil FRC uirthi. Agus ní go minic a dhéanaim é fiú má tá na litreacha sin uirthi -- cé go ndearna mé eisceacht anois díreach i gcás Lughaidh, ach is duine as an ngnách é! ;-) Ná ceil do chuid Gaeilge orainn, OK?

A TSJ - You're way over the edge on this. Nothing that was said should give you cause to go off on such a tirade. Dennis can be a tad cutting at times but he is for the most part one of the more affable and helpful people on this forum. And Aonghus is extremely patient and helpful. There have been from time to time some of the "elitest" types here but neither of the two gentlemen qualify for the title.

A Dennis,

You have put me on the spot. Judging by your postings your command of Irish is far superior to mine. After all, I have explained that I am still learning, and I am also having a difficult time doing so. The quality of my written Irish is so poor that I am reluctant to post in it for fear of ridicule. However, you have made a reasonable request and I cannot refuse it. Would you mind giving me a little time in order to screw up enough courage and to put together a posting in Irish that won't make you laugh too much?

Thanks for your understanding, Dennis.

A Dennis,

You have put me on the spot. Judging by your postings your command of Irish is far superior to mine. After all, I have explained that I am still learning, and I am also having a difficult time doing so. The quality of my written Irish is so poor that I am reluctant to post in it for fear of ridicule. However, you have made a reasonable request and I cannot refuse it. Would you mind giving me a little time in order to screw up enough courage and to put together a posting in Irish that won't make you laugh too much?

Thanks for your understanding, Dennis.

Tá go maith!

quote:

a posting in Irish that won't make you laugh

Tabhair scéal grinn dúinn, áfach, agus déanfaimid gáire.

Ceart go leor.

Ta me ag lorg sceil duit.

Maith thú, TSJ!

"Tá mé ag lorg," as Dennis points out (a' damhsa 'dancing'), is not normally pronounced "Tá mé…ag…lorg," but "Tá mé lorg." If you gave the preposition its full pronunciation (where it should not be pronounced at all), it would sound as if you were saying *"Tá mé ag glorg" or *"Tá mé i gclorg" or who-knows-what.

In the northern dialects "cathaoireach" is also the genitive plural form, so "Tá mé a' lorg cathaoireach duit" might sound as if you meant "I'm looking for some chairs for you."

My father, a native of Massachusetts living in California since 1954, once asked an Australian woman what her name was, and she told him, "Oh, it's Jo." He asked her to repeat it, and she did. He was still struggling to figure out what she was saying, and asked her, "Jay?" At that point I decided to step in as interpreter, telling him, "No; Jo." Other than that, of course, they had no difficulty understanding each other.

quote:

In the northern dialects "cathaoireach" is also the genitive plural form

Really? (not being sarcastic, but I've never seen this before)

quote:

My father, a native of Massachusetts living in California since 1954, once asked an Australian woman what her name was, and she told him, "Oh, it's Jo." He asked her to repeat it, and she did. He was still struggling to figure out what she was saying, and asked her, "Jay?" At that point I decided to step in as interpreter, telling him, "No; Jo." Other than that, of course, they had no difficulty understanding each other.

I was in New York and Boston recently. Ofcourse, the people there speak English, but I had difficulty with their vocabulary and colloquialisms.

For instance, they called runners "sneakers" and they called jumpers "sweaters". Plasters were "band-aids"... there's plenty more examples.

But the colloquialisms by far were the most difficult to decipher... for instance, I was talking to a group of people my age, and one of them said that I was "straight". In Dublin, when you say someone's straight, you're unambiguously saying that the person is heterosexual (or perhaps bisexual)... so ofcourse I was interested to find out why this person found it pertinent to explicitly tell everyone that I was, well... straight. Anyway, "straight" is another word for "cool" over there -- but I didn't know that!

Not to mention the trouble Irish people (including au pairs) have got into in the US talking about the great craic they had last night!

Or telling their pupils to get out their "rubbers."

• In the northern dialects "cathaoireach" is also the genitive plural form…
• "Really?"
• Yup.

____________________

Acht bhéadh lá eile ar an chailligh, a's rinne an tighearna suas a intinn nuair a thuirsigh sé é féin ag ciceáil na gcathaoireach in a sheomra a's ag cur droch-phaidreach i ndiaidh anam Fhéidhlimidh go raibh sé chomh maith aige an rud a ghlacadh 'na mhór-mheisnigh.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, “Indé agus Indiu”
__________

Shiubhail sé bealach na gréine timcheall na gcathaoireach, sheasuigh annsin, a's thug móid a's mionna nach ndéanfadh sé ath-phósadh go gcaithtí na trí sluaiste air.
_____

Nó b'fhéidir gur fonn pléisiúir agus an mhire shiubhail a théid leis atá 'á gcur a chuartughadh óir sidhe na gcathrach?
_____

Ní chomhnuigheadh píobairí siubhail ná fidileoirí siubhail i dtoighthe ranna na gcathrach, agus ní iarradh siad aoigheacht oidhche i n-áit ar bith a mbéadh sclátaí ós a gcionn i n-áit scrath.

— Seaghán 'ac Meanman, “Rácáil agus Scuabadh”
____________________

Cuirfidh mé geall nach dtéid aon phighinn den airgead sin ar sochar do na páistí ar shaothruigh a gcuid máithreach agus máithreach-mór é as bárr a gcuid dealgán, 'na suidhe leis an tóin-ghealaigh a' baint na súl asta féin ag cleiteáil.
_____

“An dream atá ag éirghe aníos anois níl fhios ag a leath car bh'ainm de na gcuid aithreach-mór, chan é amháin fios a bheith aca cé tá ar na h-uaí a ghaol leó.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Caisleáin Óir”
__________

Nár mhéanair dár gcuid máithreach.
_____

“Tá,” ar sise, “bíonn a gcuid aithreach sa bhaile ar fad aca.”
_____

Nár mhéanair dúinne dá mbeadh ár gcuid aithreach sa bhaile againn rith na bliadhna.
_____

Bhí cupla gasúr i n-a seasamh annsin — gasraí tháinig i n-arraicis a gcuid aithreach.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Bean Ruadh de Dhálach”
__________

D'aithin sí go rabhthas ag cúl-choimheád uirthi agus choinnigh sí greim ar a stuaim mar ghníodh a cuid máithreach mór roimpi nuair a tchíodh siad an t-anás chuca.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Faoi Chrann Smola”
__________

Bhí suidheachán cloiche ar gach taobh fá choinne máithreach agus baintreabhach.
_____

Bhí a gcuid aithreach is máithreach glas, thug siad-san an dath céadna leo, beag is mar bhí siad.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Iascaire Inse Tuile”
__________

Ní rabh cainnt na n-aithreach naomhtha as mur gcluasa go rabh sibh ar meisge.
_____

“Goidé mar bhéad siad acht mar tá a gcuid aithreach?” arsa Conall.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Thiar i dTír Chonaill”
__________

An mhuintir a bhí fá m'aois ní bhéadh gar le n-a gcuid aithreach leath ticeád a iarraidh dóbhtha.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Nuair a Bhí Mé Óg”
__________

Tá rud déanta aca nach leigfeadh an eagla dá gcuid aithreach a dhéanamh.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “Scéal Úr agus Sean-Scéal”
__________

Tháinigeamar 'fhad le n-ár gcuid aithreach agus iad ag feitheamh linn go dtugadh siad griosáil bhuailte dúinn cionnas imtheacht i bhfolach ar maidin agus an lá a chaitheamh fá na beanna.

— Séamus 'ac Grianna, “An Teach nár Tógadh”
____________________

Is leór focal amháin — focal amháin as dán mur gcuid máithreach.
_____

Go moltar Dia ár n-aithreach.
_____

Míle altú do Dhia ár n-aithreach!

— Seosamh 'ac Grianna, “Ben-Hur”
____________________

Bhí tuilleadh aca ag méidhligh go truaghcánta ar lorg a gcuid máithreach, agus na máithreachaí ag tabhairt freagair ortha go himnidheach.

— Tadhg Ó Rabhartaigh, “Thiar i nGleann Ceo”

http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/tobar/

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on December 05, 2005)

• talking about the great craic they had last night!
• Or telling their pupils to get out their "rubbers."
• Or going to the store to buy some "nigger-brown" cloth.

And it may take the immigrant many years to learn such details as the fact that in American English there is no such thing as "a rib of hair."

In the "scéal grinn" thread, Dennis wrote "ná bí ag tromaíocht ..."

I wonder : is "tromaíocht" the verbal noun based on "tromaigh", or does "tromaigh" already have a(nother) verbal noun?

tromaíocht [ainmfhocal baininscneach den tríú díochlaonadh]
milleán; béadán, cúlchaint.


tromú [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal firinscneach]
éirí trom nó a dhéanamh trom.


Different words, Max.

So I thought... "tromaíocht" doesn't look like a verbal noun.

But then if it isn't, could we have "bheith ag tromú"?

If yes, is it "ag tromú ar X" or "ag tromú X"?

ag tromú X - making X heavier. But it sounds odd.

Ag tromaíocht ar X - bullying X