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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through October 21, 2005 » Tarbh, marbh « Previous Next »

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Max
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Username: Max

Post Number: 192
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 02:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

About "tarbh" and "marbh", Ó Siadhail gives the pronunciation [ta:ru:] and [ma:ru:].
I wonder:
What is the pronunciation of these 2 words in the other dialects?
And for Dennis: what was their pronunciation in old Irish?

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Pádraig
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Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 282
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 05:01 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

An Foclóir Póca puts a V sound on the end of both these words. I believe the FP is the standardized pronunciation. So your dead bull comes out as

taruv maruv.

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Dennis
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Username: Dennis

Post Number: 456
Registered: 02-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 05:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Old Irish apparently didn't have the epenthetic vowel (an guta cúnta) that pops up in the modern language, so:

tarb /tarb/
marb /marb/

b = voiced bilabial fricative (Tá súil agam go ndúirt mé i gceart é!)

I believe that you'll hear /mar@b/ in Munster and parts of Conamara. The funny thing that happens in Munster is that the plural "marbha" is pronounced "marú".

The treatment in Scottish Gaelic is interesting: /m[ara]b/, where the unit in square brackets is conceptually a single syllable with equal stress on both vowels, at least for poetic purposes. Here the guta cúnta normally echoes the vowel that comes before it.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 896
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 07:39 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Donegal: /taru/ and /maru/.

The final -v sound is only to be heard in Munster, I think. It is a short oo-sound elsewhere.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 343
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 09:42 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"Final non-palatal bh after an epenthetic vowel is vocalised to u: or less commonly retained as w, e.g. marbh ma:ru:, ma:rэw, banbh ba:Nu:, ba:Nэw."

— Tomás de Bhaldraithe, "The Irish of Cois Fhairrge, Co. Galway"
__________________________________________________

"Epenthetic vowels occurred at the intermediate stage of the development of tarbh and such words — e.g. balbh balu:, garbh garu:, banbh banu:, searbh ∫aru: — thus tarbh → *tarabhtarú. So too an epenthetic vowel developed between r and gh at an intermediate stage of the evolution of dorgha, thus dorghadoragha → *dorúdrú."

— Éamonn Mhac an Fhailigh, "The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo"

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on October 15, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 344
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 09:54 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

"It is a short oo-sound elsewhere."

Short in Achill as it is in Donegal, but long elsewhere in Connaught. That is, "half-long," like any other unstressed "long" vowel.

Peadar Ó Gríofa



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