Thank you for taking my call.

In trying to create a cheat sheet from which to learn all the forms of tá, I noticed a form I don't recognize.

What is this? And how is it translated?

Present -- táthar
Past -- bhíothadh
Future -- beifear
Present Habitual -- bítear
Past Habitual -- bhítí
Conditional -- bheifí

In researching this further I discovered that Christian Brothers (which doesn't explain anything that you don't already understand) lists six other tenses: present negative, present relative, present dependent, past dependent, present subjunctive and past subjunctive; and each has its own form of this highly irregular verb.

As usual, one question gives rise to three new ones. For example, how does one translate and distinguish between:

Past dependent -- ni raibh mé
Present sunjunctive -- raibh mé, and
The raibh in go raibh maith agat?

Go raibh maith agat. I'll hang up now and listen to your answer.

Those look like synthetic forms as used in Munster to me, and mostly passive to boot.

Táthar ag súil - it is expected
bhíothadh siad ag súil - they were expecting
beifear ag súil - it will be expected
bítear ag súil - it is generally expected
bhítí ag súil - it used to be expected
bheifí ag súil - it would be expected (conditional on something)

go raibh maith agat is the Modh Foshuiteach - the form to express wishes/prayers. The "go" is the clue.

quote:

I'll hang up now and listen to your answer.

Sin cleas maith!

Dia dhuit, agus go raibh maith agat, a hAonghus,

In the interest of my personal sanity I have concentrated my efforts to learn in the Ulster dialect. Does your identification of these terms as Munster mean that there is probably a different set of terms for each dialect? Or may we assume that the folks in Donegal never have to express such complicated constructs?

Where might I locate the Ulster form? By the way, is the CB grammar consistently focussed on the Munster dialect?

It means I was wrong. It is the normal passive form.

Except that the past should be "bhíothas" not "bhíothadh", which is what put me on the Munster scent in the first place.

If you put "tá" into http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/ you'll get all the forms. Press the "Diultach" button for negative, Ceisteach for question form.

I've never seen the Christian Brother grammar, but I understand it is for Standard Irish.

Okay. Now in Enghish the Passive Voice refers to the form a verb takes when the subject of the sentence is being acted upon in lieu of performicg the action.

Mar shampla:

John was hit by the ball. (passive)
John hit the ball. (active)

Are we talking about the same thing when referring to the "normal passive form" in Irish?

Also, just a side note: I have assumed that the Christian Brothers Grammar was An Bíobla Naofa for the student of Irish, and I'm wondering how you managed to elude it in the course of your schooling.

Irish calls a form like that a "saorbhriathar" (lit., "free verb"). "Autonomous verb" is the term in English. An autonomous verb is not quite equivalent to an English passive verb. For example, "óltar", the present tense autonomous form of "ól" (drink), can be translated as:

someone or something drinks
one drinks
"they" drink
[subject unspecified] drinks

In other words, "óltar" is an active verb, not a passive, but the subject or doer of the action is deliberately left unspecified. There is a saorbhriathar for every tense of every verb. As you know, there are six "normal" person/number combinations in each tense. For "ól" we start with the "first person singular" and end with the "third person plural":

ólaim
ólann tú
ólann sé/sí
ólaimid
ólann sibh
ólann siad

The best way to think of "óltar" is as simply the seventh person/number permutation, the one that refuses to divulge its identity; the chameleon or shapeshifter -- the one that can be anything or anyone!

Aha! So if I think someone to be an idiot and do not wish to deal with the consequences of telling him so, I might say "One might think a person who acts thusly is an idiot."

Passive -- as in passive agressive -- non-confrontational.

Here's a few sample translations:

John is building a house. → Tá Seán ag tógáil tí.

They're building a new road to Galway. → Táthar ag tógáil bóthar nua go Gailimh.
A new road is being built to Galway. → Táthar ag tógáil bóthar nua go Gailimh.

Or possibly:

Tá bóthar nua á thógáil go Gailimh.

I'm not sure if native speakers of Irish would use "siad" as how we do in English, eg. "Tá siad ag tógáil...". I'd guess that you'd hear "Táthar ag tógáil..." instead of "tá bóthar nua á thógáil..." in most cased.

A Fhear,

It seems that the use of this form is limited to the third person singular and plural although in the absence of a personal pronoun (sé, sí, nó siad) there's no way of distinguishing.

Interesting. If, in English I open a conversation with "They are building down the street," someone might ask, "who is?" In Irish the use of the autonomous form implies "don't ask."

Dennis,

I see in Focloir Beag the abbreviation Sb. in reference to certain verb forms. I assume that stands for saorbhriathar? (Sp?)

(Message edited by pádraig on October 10, 2005)

quote:

It seems that the use of this form is limited to the third person singular and plural although in the absence of a personal pronoun (sé, sí, nó siad) there's no way of distinguishing.

It's not even that limited. Mar shampla:

Óltar a lán fíona sa teach seo. = [Unspecified] drinks a lot of wine in this house. = We (and our guests, etc.) drink a lot of wine in this house. = A lot of wine gets drunk in this house.

quote:

I see in Focloir Beag the abbreviation Sb. in reference to certain verb forms. I assume that stands for saorbhriathar? (Sp?)

Tá an ceart agat. (Agus litrigh tú i gceart é.)

Scríobh Pádraig

quote:

Also, just a side note: I have assumed that the Christian Brothers Grammar was An Bíobla Naofa for the student of Irish, and I'm wondering how you managed to elude it in the course of your schooling.

I don't think it's used in secondary schools. That's about twenty years ago now, so I don't remember the name of the books (and paid damn all attention to them anyway).

A Aonghas, seo an briathar saor do "bí" ins an aimsir chaite i gCorca Dhuibhne: bhíotha(r)s, bhíodh (fuaimníthear mar "bhíoch" é). Féach: An Teanga Bheo, Corca Dhuibhne.

>Those look like synthetic forms as used in Munster to >me, and mostly passive to boot.

I don’t see any synthetic form there. Anyway.

>Táthar ag súil - it is expected
>bhíothadh siad ag súil - they were expecting

? they were expecting is "bhí siad ag súil". Bhíodh siad ag súil = they used to be expecting.

>beifear ag súil - it will be expected
>bítear ag súil - it is generally expected
>bhítí ag súil - it used to be expected
>bheifí ag súil - it would be expected (conditional on >something)

In Donegal, you’d get:

Táthar ag súil
bhíodh siad ag súil
beifear ag súil (pronounce the f as an h)
bíthear ag súil
bhíthí ag súil
bheifí ag súil

Standard Irish is mostly a blend of Connemara and Munster forms (but more Connemara). Irregular verbs are quite different in Ulster. Ask me if you want to have more information about that.

It was expected: bhíothas, bhíothar ag súil (both forms are used in Donegal)

Faoi dheifir a scríobh mé mo chéad tcht, dúirt mé go raibh dul amú orm. Chuir "Bhíothadh" amú mé.

Tá cuma an tseanlitrithe ar "bhíothadh", nó cuma Albanach: bhiothadh (Albain) = bheadh & bhíodh (Éire)

I don't know where these so called "saorbhriathar" forms come from (etymologically), but from the synchronic point of view, their endings can be analyzed as forms containing: "tense"+"indefinite pronoun".
For instance:
óltar = ól-tar = "drink"-("indefinite pronoun"+"present tense")

There is no real indefinite pronom (I.P.) in English ("one" doesn't really qualify as one) and to avoid any particular subjet, passive is prefered.
That is particularly obvious when you speak a language in which there is an I.P.: like French ("on").
Very often, a passive form in English will be rendered by the use of the I.P. in French, and vice versa (even though passive exists in French). There are even passive constructions in English which can only be rendered by the use of the I.P.: "he has been given a present" = "on lui a donné un cadeau".

Irish is apparently closer to French than English in this regard, and that may be the reason why the "saorbhriathar forms" are felt as "passive forms" by the English speakers.

Max,

It sounds like your information might be used as a device to facillitate the memorization of the saorbhriathar forms, but I'm confused by the reference to the indefinite pronouns as part of the formation when you say the I.P. doesn't exist.

Tá + thar = Táthar = is.

Where has the thar come from? Am I missing something?

le meas

táthar = one is

Saorbhriathar endings can be analyzed as "I.P+tense", just like -(e)amar in "chuireamar" can be analyzed as "muid+past".

quote:

I don't know where these so called "saorbhriathar" forms come from (etymologically)

They came from a true passive (faí chéasta) in Old Irish. But a situation was already in play then that opened the way for the reinterpretation and development of the faí chéasta into the saorbhriathar. That is, the passive endings only existed for the 3rd person sg. & pl. To express a 1st or 2nd person passive, you used the 3rd sg. dependent ending along with a 1st or 2nd person infixed pronoun:

carthair = he/she/it is loved (independent form)
ní·carthar = he/she/it is not loved (dependent form)
nom·charthar = I am loved (dependent form with leniting -m- attached to no-, a dummy preverb)

Is dócha nach raibh an méid seo uait, ach seo agat é mar sin féin!

When I began this thread I was hoping to discover the Irish equivalent for the English present perfect tense which is usually constructed as pronoun + have (has) + participle:

I have eaten ...
I have been ...
I have been arrested ...

I don't seem to be able to find what I'm looking for. How is the following best expressed in Irish?

I have been one acquainted with the night.

The form: "I have been acquainted" has me stumped.

I have eaten x = Tá x ite agam
I have been = bhí mé
I have been arrested = tá mé gafa/gaibhte

I have eaten x = Tá x ite agam
I have been = bhí mé
I have been arrested = tá mé gafa/gaibhte

quote:

I have been one acquainted with the night.

= Is duine mé a raibh aithne aige ar an oíche.

As for "I have eaten", most of the time you'd just say "d'ith mé".

"Tá sé ite agam" is entirely possible, but it can have a slightly different emphasis than English "I have eaten it." More like "I've managed to eat it" or "I've finished eating it."

Then there's the use of "tar éis" or "i ndiaidh", which gives rise to the Hiberno-English "I'm after eating" = "I've eaten";

Tá mé tar éis an t-iomlán a ithe. = I've eaten the whole lot. I've (just) eaten them all.

(Message edited by dennis on October 13, 2005)

Is the construct using i ndiaidh incorrect, or are you just reflecting the often expressed dislike for literal English translations such as "I'm after working hard all day" and others that native speakers don't care for at all, at all?

Nach litrítear "Gailimh" mar 'Gaillimh'?
Or is this that bad boy Tuiseal Tabharthach playin havoc aríst!?

>Nach litrítear "Gailimh" mar 'Gaillimh'?

Litríthear leoga.

Gaillimh, i nGaillimh. Níl foirm thabharthach speisialta ar bith ann.