Here is an interesting link to an academic paper discussing Unionists who study Irish and investigating the extent to which they are able to remain loyal to the UK:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/language/mccoy97.htm

quote:

Unionists who study Irish... the extent to which they are able to remain loyal to the UK

Poncán deas protastúnach a bhí ionam, ya know, go dtí gur fhoghlaim mé Gaeilge. Anois, áfach, is ó Theach Laighean agus ón Róimh a fhaighim mo chuid orduithe.

Is é an 'sé do bheatha a mhuire' a dhéanann gach tráth é ;)

(ceartúcháin? le bhur dtoil)

[QUOTE]Poncán deas protastúnach a bhí ionam, ya know, go dtí gur fhoghlaim mé Gaeilge.[/QUOTE]

I think this means you used to be a Protestant before you learned Irish. Well, I used to be a Roman Catholic before I became an Anglican. Learning Irish would not make me join the RC Church. Picking up my school Latin might, though.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 29, 2005)

Maith thú, David. You got the jist. But the message was delivered tongue-in-cheek. (I hope the second sentence made that clear!) Knowing Irish hasn't had any influence on my politics or religion (of lack thereof).

BTW, if you want to do the quote box thing, type in the parts between quotation marks:

"\" then "quote" then "{xxxx}"

(Message edited by dennis on September 29, 2005)

(Message edited by dennis on September 29, 2005)

Hey Sam, tá ceist agam ort, agus tá an t-am seo chomh maith le ham ar bith eile. Feicim clúdach albaim ó Chlannad faoin d'ainm i gcónaí. Cén fáth? An fean mór thú? Nó an bhfuil scéal níos casta ann?

Ian Malcolm is a Unionist journalist who writes a regular (weekly, I think) column for the irish language daily Lá.

Lá editorial line is fairly republican (in the specific NI sense of the word), but they have a wide range of column opinion - which is why I still buy it.

Ian is doing a PhD on Protestant learners of Irish. He has also been appointed to the RTÉ authority this year.


Unionists were prominent in the Gaelic league at its founding (19th/Early 20th C), but felt sidelined when the IRB started using the Gaelic league as a vehicle.

Lá ran an article some months ago about an Orangeman and Presbyterian minister who was also an Irish speaker.


One of the tragedies of NI is that it has made people feel that certain parts of Irish culture belong only to "themmuns" - I hope that will change.

Protestants in the South have always been prominent in the language movement.

Djwebb, as an Anglican, this link might interest you - parts of the Book of Common Prayer are online in Irish.
(You can get the whole Book in print)

http://www.ireland.anglican.org/bcp2004/texts.htm

Aonghus, that is the modernised 2004 book of common prayer. The original BCP for Irish GAelic was written in 1602, and it was updated after partition in 1926. It can be read at http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Ireland/Gaelic.htm The PDFs on this site are in modern spelling, but use the old font (seanchló)óI believe. I know just about enough Irish to work out which is the Prayer for the Queen!!

Excellent, thank you.

http://www.cuplafocal.ie has a few copies of the old BCP, as well as the new one, and I've been meaning to buy one, but never had the spare cash.
(Being RC, I don't strictly need it - but....)

I got some of the NT books in the Bedell/Ó Domhnaill versions for 50c each from the Hibernian Bible Society - a 1936 printing in the old font.

The Ultach trust's website is here
http://www.ultach.dsl.pipex.com/

quote:

CÚLRA

Tá Iontaobhas ULTACH ina chumann carthanachta a bhfuil sé mar phríomhaidhm aige an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn i measc pobail uile Thuaisceart Éireann. Tá oifigí an Iontaobhais i mBéal Feirste. Is cuid lárnach dár gcuid oibre an teanga a chur chun tosaigh ar bhunús trasphobail, agus tá ionadaíocht ón dá mhór-thraidisiún creidimh ar Bhord na nIontaobhaithe

My emphasis.

Scríobh Asarlaí
(ceartúcháin? le bhur dtoil)

Bheadh "gach uair" agamsa seachas "gach tráth"

Grma as sin a Aonghuis,


Hi Dennis,
bhuel, ní móidín mé go díreach ach taitníonn a gcéad cúpla albam thar cionn liom. Is breá é an albam seo go háirithe mar is féidir liom canadh in éineacht leis. (I can sing along with it??)
Agus ar ndóigh, tá an clúdach den chéad scoth chomh maith ;)

"An tan iompóigheas an drochdhuine ó na chiontaibh do rinne sé, agus do ní sé an ní as dlisdionach agus as ceart, saorfaidh sé a anam beo. Esec. 18.27."

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Ireland/Gaeli1712_MP.jpg

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Ireland/Gaeli1825_MP.jpg

э tun umpo:s э droxγin' a: nэ çiNti: э riN'э §e: gэs э n'i: §e: э N'i: э§ dl'i§d'эnэx ogэs э§ k'art si:rhэ §e: anim' b'o:

This is the "Collect for the Queen" from the Anglican Holy Communion Service, which I know well in English, although I can only pick out odd words below.


A Dhia Uilechumhachtaigh na ríochta síoraí, agus a cumhachta gan teorainn; 'Déan trócaire ar an Eaglais uile; agus rialaigh croí do sheirbhísigh thofa Elizabeth, ár mBanríon agus ár nGobharnóir, ar chuma go ndéana sí (agus a fhios aici cé dó a bhfuil sí ina ministir) d’onóir agus do ghlóir a lorg thar gach ní: agus go ndéanaimid maraon lena bhfuil de dhaoine eile faoina réir (ag cuimhneamh mar is cóir ar cé uaidh a húdarás) seirbhís agus onóir agus umhlóid di, ionatsa, agus duitse, de réir do Bhriathair agus d’orduithe bheannaithe: trí Íosa Críost ár dTiarna, a mhaireann i ríocht maraon leatsa agus leis an Spiorad Naomh, ina aon Dia amháin go brách, trí shaol na saol. Áiméan .

ALMIGHTY God, whose kingdom is everlasting, and power infinite: Have mercy upon the whole Church; and so rule the heart of thy chosen servant ELIZABETH, our Queen and Governor, that she (knowing whose minister she is) may above all things seek thy honour and glory; and that we, and all her subjects (duly considering whose authority she hath) may faithfully serve, honour, and humbly obey her, in thee, and for thee, according to thy blessed Word and ordinance; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who with thee and the Holy Ghost liveth and reigneth, ever one God, world without end. Amen.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 30, 2005)

Ye its great that a tiny amount of unionists are learning Gaeilge and fair play etc etc..

But hold on - - I feel it necessary to point out *since nobody else has* that it is many unionists who actively work against Gaeilge.
It is they who try to get Lá shut down.
It is they who show their long finger to language activists and murals with Gaeilge on it.
It is they who were Planted on the land of Gaeilgeoirí and as such are the very ones who are responsible for the decline of our native tongue.

I mean do you honestly think that if there weren't Gaeilge activists that the unionists would work towards offical status, irish language education/ media etc etc..
Ní dóigh liom é.

Domhnall, I don't know whether your comments are directed to me or someone else. Yes, you're right. The Unionists are not fond of Gaelic - but very many of them do have Gaelic-speaking ancestors. You only have to look at the name of the towns. How can a Unionist living in Ballywhatever not wonder why his hometown has an Irish name, and if so, what it means? Lá should not be shut down.

Now: Northern Ireland is not part of the ROI and the decisions of the Irish government have no relevance north of the border. Personally, I think the Northern Irish government should give consideration to establishing a separate standard for Irish than that promoted in the South. Ulster Irish could be defined in law as the official pronunciation of Irish in Northern Ireland; Ulster grammatical forms could be defined as the NI standard, in a separate standard rivalling the Dublin govt's one; the old spellings could be brought back (I have read an article by Panu Petteri Höglund arguing that some of the new spellings are very awkward from the point of view of Ulster dialect + his article arguing for the creation of a separate standard for Ulster Irish is on the Internet somewhere); and the old script, including the dot for lenition could be made standard in the North too. The Official Standard and the Central Dialect Pronunciation etc are not part of Northern Ireland's heritage. By doing what I have outlined, the NI govt could make Irish its own and do so in a way that embarrassed the ROI govt.

yes, however it would serve to create more division in the language, possibly leading to an eventual split between "ulster" and "irish"...not a good thing.

what would be better is if, gaeilge provisions being part of the documents that created the NI gov't i believe, the NI gov't and the roi gov't meeting to hammer out an inclusive standard for the 21st century and beyond.

the last thing that language (or that island) needs is more division...

Unionists are against Irish simply because they percieve that only Republicans promote it. Most of them are unaware that it is a living language in Gaeltachtaí in the south.

As for Lá, what the Unionists actually objected to was that a newspaper company, owned by a prominent member of Sinn Féin, seemed to be getting more than its fair share of govt money. And Lá spun the story for what it was worth. The money was delayed, not stopped, while due process was gone through.

NI politics is rife with "if they get something so must we".

There's a tiny town in Western North Carolina with three traffic lights on a main street so lightly traveled that you would have to park your car in the middle of an intersection and wait for another car with which you might orchestrate an accident.

The reason for the lights? A neighboring, larger town (the only other town in the county) was alloted funds to install three much needed traffic lights.

"It is they who were Planted on the land of Gaeilgeoirí and as such are the very ones who are responsible for the decline of our native tongue."

While certainly very relevant, this is a bit of an overstatement, isn't it? If the plantations had never happened, it is most likely that Irish would have been stronger today, no doubt about that. Ulster had been the real stronghold of Irish up to that point, so it is likely that we could have Gaeltachts even stronger than the ones in Connacht in parts of the six counties. However, I would put more blame on the people behind the plantation, the English crown, than the actual people who were planted. And even though the plantation definitely played a part in weakening the Irish language, there were others factors of equal or greater importance. The main one was of course the extreme poverty in Ireland, leading to the famine and the emigration. Another one was the lure of America. Many abandoned Irish not to be able to speak with the English but to be able to go to America.

yes, but I think what he was getting at is, english crown, plantations, and virtually everything else the crown did - those who are a part of that have little if any right to be making demands.

now, another (and I believe wiser) course of action would be to foster the language with every group that wants to embrace it. if the unionists complain that lá is getting unbanlanced money then let them come up with an irish language publication to get equal funds under the same provision that's granted them to lá in the first place.

this would a) make for more speakers by opening up a new market, so to speak, and b) hopefully inspire the requisite indignation+shame that it would take to get the ROI residents a bit more serious about the language on their end...

Yes, the English crown is, historically, definitely to blame. Especially Elizabeth I unless my memory serves me wrong.

"if the unionists complain that lá is getting unbanlanced money then let them come up with an irish language publication to get equal funds under the same provision that's granted them to lá in the first place."

I LOVE the idea! :-)

The problem is that they will demand the funds for "their language" Ulster Scots.

This is a thorny issue.

And I think this discussion would be better housed at http://www.sluggerotoole.com - it's likely to drift very OT soon.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/

http://www.gaeilge.ie/

quote:

Faoi réir Chomhaontú Aoine an Chéasta bunaíodh An Foras Teanga, Comhlacht Feidhmithe Thuaidh/Theas, chun an Ghaeilge agus an Ultais a chur chun cinn. Faoi choimirce an chomhlachta sin, déanfaidh Foras na Gaeilge na freagrachtaí go léir i dtaca leis an nGaeilge a chur i gcrích. I measc na bhfreagrachtaí sin tá labhairt agus scríobh na Gaeilge sa saol poiblí agus sa saol príobháideach i bPoblacht na hÉireann. Tá an fhreagracht chéanna ann i leith Thuaisceart na Éireann, sa chás go mbíonn an t-éileamh cuí ann agus i gcomhthéacs Chuid III de Chairt Chomhairle na hEorpa um Theangacha Réigiúnacha nó Mionlaigh.

"The problem is that they will demand the funds for "their language" Ulster Scots."

Why is it a problem?

It's not - I just meant that they would not be satisfied by money being spent on Irish through a Unionist sponsored group.

Foras na Gaeilge has been hampered by being yoked to the NI peace process, in part because of the parity and tit for tat element, but more because of the general lack of progress meaning that there is no one to approve the decisions which require ministerial approval.

[QUOTE]yes, but I think what he was getting at is, english crown, plantations, and virtually everything else the crown did - those who are a part of that have little if any right to be making demands. [/QUOTE]

Antaine, short of genocide, you and everyone else will have to accept the existence of the Unionist community in north-eastern Ireland. They exist and they have their point of view, and are entitled to it. And the Northern Irish problem will continue in one form or another until the viewpoints of **both** communities are recognised. Anyway, nearly all of the Unionists have Gaelic ancestors.

There are competing visions of Ireland. One is anti-English. The other, the Unionist one, is prepared to recognise the things the British Isles have in common. What is wrong with that?

[QUOTE]Yes, the English crown is, historically, definitely to blame. Especially Elizabeth I unless my memory serves me wrong. [/QUOTE]

No, Jonas, the Irish language was going strong long after Elizabeth I died. Whatever you think of historical events, it was the famine - and the collapse in the morale of the Irish people that it induced - that did for the Irish language. History is twisted so that England is somehow to blame for the Famine, but Irish people decided themselves to give up their language. Look at Wales - Welsh is still spoken by 20% of them, and they have also been under English rule for centuries.

[QUOTE]The problem is that they will demand the funds for "their language" Ulster Scots.[/QUOTE]

Ulster Scots is just a dialect of English, and is spoken by as many RCs as Protesants.

[QUOTE]Foras na Gaeilge has been hampered by being yoked to the NI peace process, in part because of the parity and tit for tat element, but more because of the general lack of progress meaning that there is no one to approve the decisions which require ministerial approval.[/QUOTE]

Well, the Unionist people got NOTHING out of the "peace" deal.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on October 03, 2005)

djwebb...note that my comment was an attempt to put into other words the original comment. i do not advocate an ostracizing of unionists. I do think that the longer there is peace (and by this I mean for 50, 100 or 200 years, those who are today the class that make up the backbone of the unionist cause will be more and more identifying themselves as "irish"...and as such I do see the scales eventually tipping toward a plan to reunify the island.

up until very recently, one's religion or family history (or both) could be a matter of life and death...no wonder both sides became so firmly entrenched in the us/them paradigm.

with the economy in the south a powerhouse (not that the uk's isn't, I mean compared to the way it was in the 1980s and before) there would be less economic 'growing pains' from a reunification.

there's no religious discrimination allowed by irish law, there's a good solid economy in the south, the violence has gone away, and the final requirement for an equitable reunification is one of identity and consent. I believe that with a sense of a shared identity will come consent, and I also believe that the growing of that identity is already beginning to roll.

the unionist people get PLENTY out of the peace deal...a) they get PEACE...b) they get to remain part of the uk (kinda the whole center of their platform)...in other words, by virtue of the fact that NI is still part of the uk by consent of both the roi and the republican elements means that the unionists, in effect, have won. they got EXACTLY what they wanted...

furthermore, the only thing that can change "b" is a vote by the majority of those living in NI, and the point at which most of those living in NI want out of the uk there's no argument in the world for not letting them, self determination and all...

furthermore, the only thing that can change "b" is a vote by the majority of those living in NI, and the point at which most of those living in NI want out of the uk there's no argument in the world for not letting them, self determination and all...



Antaine: yes there is. In 1922 NI was 67% Protestant; now 53%. It is unfair for a done deal to be unpicked simply owing to demographic developments as one community outbreeds another. Even if Catholics were 60% of the NI population in 50 years' time, the Unionist community themselves should not be railroaded into a united Ireland if they don't want it. As a discrete community, they should be able to give or withhold consent to that, and not simply be outvoted by Catholics. Being outvoted by Catholics would not mean that a cultural settlement with the Unionists had been agreed. As such the Unionist have a veto on a united Ireland.

I am no longer particpating in this discussion, as it has drifted off the topic of the Irish language.

It will, sooner or later, descend into a flamefest.

My comments were not directed at anyone.
Gaeilge is not just a living language sna Gaeltachtaí grma.
It is spoken DAILY by thousands.. For me personally - I use it at home.. In college.. With friends.. Doing Móltóireacht for Feachtas debates in the evening.. So i have to say that in my life in Dublin, Louth, Meath agus Gaeltacht na Rinne it is a living language. An Aontaíonn tú liom? Do you not mean Teanga an Phobail?

Jonas, overstatement no. Blame the crown yes. But the planters knew exactly what they were doing and none of them were forced out of Sasana whatsoever.

The reason poverty got so bad was a DIRECT RESULT of the plantations. The Gael had no land, jobs, education etc etc (Because it was banned, taken from them and given to the planters.) so the problem exaggerated itself you know poor families = big families etc etc..

Ulster Scots is not an F-ing language. The only reason it's being given funding etc etc is coz Gaeilge is.

Dj will you wise up. The unionists didnt want anything - THATS BECAUSE THEY HAD EVERYTHING

"A PROTESTANT GOVERNMENT FOR PROTESTANT ULSTER"

For FUCK sake will please read that over and over again and think of what that means. I bet you don't even know who said that. Maybe they were right in saying you don't know much about Irish history.

Unionists have a right to their opinions. I don't recognise the right of the British Govt in Ireland.

James Connolly ;
"The british govt has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland ,never can have any right in Ireland "

Antaine you make sense. But. Unionists aren't going to support anything ar son na teanga coz as was correctly said they see it as a republican tool.

Dj your excessively simply views are incredible and unfounded. Anything i say is either fact or i have something to back it up with. I mean have you ever heard of Gerrymandering, Collusion, Secterianism in the civil service and the bloody list goes on pal. If the Protestant govt had treated Catholics fairly then the IRA would have not have become so strong.

If what you're saying is that a Unionist minority shouldn't have to accept what nationalists say then why should nationalists accept what Unionists say?????
Scandalous - " the Unionist community themselves should not be railroaded into a united Ireland if they don't want it. As a discrete community, they should be able to give or withhold consent to that, and not simply be outvoted by Catholics" So even if a United Ireland is voted for - It should be ignored? Cop yourself on! One man one vote. Democracy.

"Yes, ruling by fooling, is a great British art with great Irish fools to practice on." - James Connolly From The Irish Worker, September 1914

This thread has been closed as it has drifted off topic.

Caoimhín