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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 25, 2005 » L, N and R « Previous Next »

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Djwebb2002
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Username: Djwebb2002

Post Number: 47
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Good link on l, n and r at http://www.akerbeltz.org/beagangaidhlig/gramar/grammar_historyofLNR.htm, which explains in various dialects of GAelic (incl Scottish) which of the 4 l's, n's and r's have survived. however the writer clearly thinks that Munster has only alveolar and not dental l's, which someone on this list has repeatedly said is the reverse of the truth...

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 03:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Read the descriptions of the phonemes in the Irish dialect studies. Listen to good native speakers of Munster Irish, and listen for their broad L's.

"To begin with, the *r means that there was an initial slender R but we have no idea what that was phonetically. It's a mystery."

We don't? It is?

"Ulster Irish retains the most complete set of sonorants amongst the Gaelic languages and dialects"

Ulster and Mayo Irish.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 287
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There exists a sizable body of published evidence to suggest that one should not believe everything one reads. Here's another example that I just came across:

"Morphological variation in the three dialects is the third area subject to major difference. Take the nominal system as an example; many nouns have dialectal differences in their plural forms. The plural for 'word' in Ulster Irish is 'focla' whereas elsewhere the plural form is 'focail'".
https://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/csll/nicaogaa0304.pdf

If the writer had been better informed, that last sentence would read, "The plural for 'word' in Munster Irish is 'focail' whereas elsewhere the plural form is 'focla'."

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 288
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The two-way opposition between slender and broad "l(l)" in Munster Irish is very similar to the following:

lot, lato, palma
http://www.apronus.com/polishsounds/lot_lato_palma!s.mp3
Cf. leo, leat, caillimíd

łata, łapa, pała
http://www.apronus.com/polishsounds/lata_lapa_pala!s.mp3
Cf. lacha, lámh, calma

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 289
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Ulster Irish retains the most complete set of sonorants amongst the Gaelic languages and dialects"

"Ulster and Mayo Irish."

Probably Joyce Country Irish too.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Polannach
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Username: Polannach

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 09:35 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"The two-way opposition between slender and broad "l(l)" in Munster Irish is very similar to the following:
lot, lato, palma
http://www.apronus.com/polishsounds/lot_lato_palma!s.mp3
Cf. leo, leat, caillimíd
łata, łapa, pała
http://www.apronus.com/polishsounds/lata_lapa_pala!s.mp3
Cf. lacha, lámh, calma"

Maybe similar but not quite the same, because in Polish "ł" is pronounced nowadays like English "w" or broad bh/mh in Ulster Irish throughout Poland (so we pronounce łata[wata], łapa[wapa], pała[pawa]). Before the 2nd world war it was actually pronounced like Irish broad L by many speakers of Polish and it is still pronounced this way near the east border of Poland and by some older speakers. And this odd (for ordinary Poles) pronunciation of "ł" is called "stage ł" as it was popular among actors.
The speaker in these audio files pronounces it very strongly and it sounds a bit unnaturally but it's still semi-vowel [w] so I don't think the broad "l" in Munster is pronounced like Polish "ł"...

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 290
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

“Laethanta Breátha” a thugaimísne mar leasainm orthu, ainm sheanabhlastúil, mar dhe ná raibh aon fhocal eile Gaeilge ina bpus ach an beannú so a dhéanfaidíst ar an mbóthar duit leis an dá fhocal — “Lá breá!”

Is minic, nuair a chuimhním ar an scéal ó shoin, a deirim liom féin dá gcuardóidíst an teanga ó cheann ceann gur dheacair dóibh aon dá fhocal a tharrac chúchu ba dheacra dhóibh a rá ó thaobh na foghraíochta ná an dá fhocal chéanna, go mórmhór agus an “L” mór leathan atá againn i nDún Chaoin a thairgímíd aníos amach as ár sceolmhaigh, agus an tsuaithinseacht foghraíochta a leanann an focal “breá” againn.

— Pádraig Ua Maoileoin, "Na hAird Ó Thuaidh"
____________________________

l — This is a velarized voiced lateral consonant, formed by pressing the tip of the tongue against the upper teeth, leaving a passage on both sides of the tongue for the escape of the air. It corresponds to d with regard to lip-position and glides...The 'dark' or velarized quality of this l is particularly noticeable in final position.

— Brian Ó Cuív, "The Irish of West Muskerry, Co. Cork"
____________________________

l
§ 245. The principal sound represented by l differs very little from γ. Indeed some speakers make no distinction between the two sounds. The tip and blade of the tongue are lowered so that there is no closure in the middle of the mouth, and the back of the tongue arches upwards towards the soft palate. Usually the mouth passage is narrowed sufficiently, by this raising of the back of the tongue, to cause audible friction. The vocal chords vibrate. l has a quality approximating to short u or half-close o:.

§ 246. For most speakers this l-sound is distinguished from γ by its lip position. l tends to be pronounced with a rather rounded lip position. The rather vague term "tense" seems also to be applicable to this sound: there seems to be a sort of tightening or constriction in the pharynx.

§ 247. In the speech of P.T. and M.T., I distinguish l from γ mainly by the difference in lip position, i.e. a neutral lip-position for γ and a rounded position for l...

§ 252. In the group lt, which occurs rarely, l represents a velarised dental lateral, i.e. the tip and blade of the tongue touch the backs of the upper front teeth and the teeth-ridge, and the air escapes at one or both sides of the tongue, the back of the tongue being raised to the u-position1...

1 In other words a sound very like the 'dark' l heard in Southern English in final position and before consonants. In the Cockney dialect of London there is a tendency to lose the contact in the front of the mouth, as in the case of the principal l-sound described here (§ 245–247). The Cockney sound and the sound described here are not identical, but a comparison will be useful. For an account of the Cockney sound see Ward, The Phonetics of English, p. 142 sq.

§ 255. The l-sound described in § 252 may be heard as an occasional variant of the other l-sounds described here, from some speakers within the district. I have heard the dental lateral used consistently in all positions by a speaker from a district north of Dungarvan.

— Risteard B. Breatnach, "The Irish of Ring, Co. Waterford"

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on September 24, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa



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