DjWebb mentioned that there's a Chinese course with 2 books each for beginner, intermediate and advanced learners. Is there nothing like this in Irish?

If not, then how would one go about creating such a thing? Would you need to be a linguist? Is there a way one could get someone else to write it, but still orchestrate it?

You would need to be a linguist to write a textbook. What it would take is for Mícheál Ó Siadhail to write books 2 and 3 of Learning Irish.

I'm afraid that the number of native speakers is quite crucial, at least for the quantity of textbooks. Given the enormous amount of courses published for Chinese, Spanish, French, Arabic and the likes of them, a few have to be excellent - just as quite many have to be disastrous :-)

There are of course exceptions. Three of the most brilliant language courses I've seen cover the three languages of the Baltic countries: Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian. And I think Learning Irish is another excellent textbook, so some very small languages do have excellent courses. At the other end of the spectre, I've seen lots and lots of Arabic courses but very few that are actually good. Still, I think that the number of good books on Irish is far greater than the number of speakers would suggest, so there's every reason to be grateful to those who have compiled them.

Jonas, what are the good books on the Baltic languages? Do you mean the Colloquial series?

>>Would you need to be a linguist?

A linguist as a member of the team might come in handy...

David, the Colloquial courses on the languages of the three Baltic states are quite different. The Lithuanian one is one of the best in the series, the Estonian is one of the worst. (Estonian is of course not a Baltic language, but it is the national language of one of the Baltic states).

There is a brilliant Estonian course published in Swedish and an almost equally good Latvian course in Finnish. Then there are some other rather good Latvian and Estonian courses in both Swedish and Finnish. Much better than what is available in English. In general, I've found courses in English less useful when learning Eastern European languages; some of the best courses are in German, especially for many Slavic languages. There's an excellent Hungarian course in Finnish. I usually go for courses in English for languages outside Europe and for the Celtic languages, the rest of the European languages are often better learned using German or a Nordic language.

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What it would take is for Mícheál Ó Siadhail to write books 2 and 3 of Learning Irish.

Mícheál has taken a strange turn in life. He long ago morphed into a minor poet whose "muse is English", and has turned his back entirely on any active involvement with the Irish language. The irony is that Learning Irish probably far outsells any of his little volumes of English verse. Saghas turncoat atá ann. Tá súil agam mar sin féin go bhfuair sé conradh maith ón bhfoilsitheoir agus go bhfuil na dleachta (royalties) ag rolladh isteach!

Chuala féin é sin, ach níor thuigeas riamh cad 'na thaobh. Tá leabhair ana-mhaith scríte aige (Learning Irish, Modern Irish) ach mar gheall ar a chuid filíochta...

Jonas, maybe as a Finn you need a different approach to Estonian, a book that emphasised the differences and similarities to Finnish. But as an Englishman, I have to say that Colloquial Estonian is streets ahead of Colloquial Finnish. Colloquial Lithuanian - doesn't make it clear how to use the pitch accent.

It's true that we Finns need a different approach to Estonian. Most of the grammar is the same and the vocabulary is very similar. Reading texts in Estonian is no real challenge. However, if you look at my post you'll see that I wrote that the best Estonian course is in Swedish - and Swedes don't have any advantages to English speakers when learning Estonian.

I'll agree that Colloquial Estonian is pretty clear, it's just that it's far too short. And the learner who can even begin to use the partitive case after completing the course is indeed rare. Especially the partitive plural. Having said that, I'll agree that it's probably better than Colloquial Finnish. Of course I've never had to use it, but I've glanced through it. I hope I don't insult anyone if I say that it looks as if Monty Python had written it. The thing is, I've never heard of anyone using it. All foreigners I know - mostly those living in Finland - have used other courses.

I have my doubts about individual books in the Colloquial series, but I think the series is better than Teach Yourself. Most foreigners in Finland use "Finnish for Foreigners". By the way, I think most languages are well served at the beginner's level, the intermediate level is patchily addressed, but the largest leap is from intermediate to advanced, and usually it is difficult to find good books for that level.

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ach mar gheall ar a chuid filíochta...

Tuigim duit! "A thought provoking and challenging poet both in terms of his themes and writing style" a dúirt an fear a dúirt. I bhfocail eile, is deacair an rud é aon adhmad a bhaint as! Pé scéal é, tá an chuma air go bhfuil leabhar nua i gcló aige:

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=558

David, I couldn't agree more. I always start by looking at the courses in the Colloquial and the Teach Yourself series. More often than not, the Colloquial courses are exactly what I want. Currently, the ones I've been very disappointed in are

Colloquial Arabic of the Levant (old)
Colloquial Arabic of Egypt (2004)
Colloquial Catalan (2005)
Colloquial Croatian (2005)
Colloquial Serbian (2005)
Colloquial Slovene (1994)

For some reason, the new books have tended to be of lower quality. And don't even think about learning a South Slavic language with Routledge (colloquial). Fortunately there's an excellent Serbian course in German, going much further than any Colloquial course. And the old Teach Yourself Catalan was also brilliant. Unfortunatelly, I'm on my way to Slovenia in the spring and I haven't been able to find any good Slovenian course.

"Mícheál has taken a strange turn in life."

Mícheál Ó Siadhail (http://www.osiadhail.com/) is a Dubliner. He has done a lot of work and made a vital contribution. "Learning Irish" is popular and useful. "Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge" is a fine work containing recommendations that ought to be implemented, but have been ignored. If enough people demonstrate a serious interest in what he's already done and a willingness and ability to grasp it and work with it, and ask him to do more because we need more, maybe he will. I don't know, but I really hope so.

Some posters have implied that Mícheál Ó Siadhail is a turncoat for writing English-language poetry, but I don't really see this. There doesn't have to be a contradiction there. But maybe he is disappointed with what has happened to the Irish language.

(Message edited by djwebb2002 on September 19, 2005)

Jonas, a chara,
Aontaím leat.
I think Colloquial Catalan is very poor and that the old Alan Yates' Teach Yourself Catalan was a classic of its type.
Slán beo!
Chris

"Mícheál Ó Siadhail...maybe he is disappointed with what has happened to the Irish language."

I should think he would be. Is it his exclusive duty to save or promote a language that he knows and loves but which he is honest and truthful enough to admit is not his native language? Is he the only person alive with the knowledge and intelligence necessary to do more of what he's done for the language so far? At least he had the drive to do that much! How many more years of his life should he devote to the same effort if it appears that a great deal of his work to date has been in vain?
Anyone who would like to express some appreciation for Mícheál's work in the field of Celtic Studies and the Irish language, and ask him whether there's any possibility of his resuming it, can click on "contact" at the bottom of his home page and send him a note.

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"Learning Irish" is popular and useful. "Córas Fuaimeanna na Gaeilge" is a fine work

Gan dabht dá laghad.

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If enough people demonstrate a serious interest in what he's already done and a willingness and ability to grasp it and work with it, and ask him to do more because we need more, maybe he will.

Tagann sé go Seattle ó am go ham lena chuid filíochta a léamh. Chuaidh Danny, cara liom, ag éisteacht leis cúpla bliain ó shin. Thug seisean a chóip féin de Learning Irish leis le síniú an údair a fháil, rud a rinne an Siadhalach, ach ní gan osna mhór a ligean agus na focail "Continue with your penance" a rá. Dúirt Danny go raibh sé an-deas, actually, ach ba léir go raibh sé dubh dóite de "fiontar na Gaeilge", más ceadmhach é sin a thabhairt air. Tá cead ag chuile dhuine cor nua a chur ina shaol féin, ar ndóigh, ach bhí díomá an domhain orm nuair a thug Mícheál Ó Siadhail a chúl leis an nGaeilge. Sin an méid. Más féidir leat é a mhealladh ar ais in aon chor, fair play duit.