Author |
Message |
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 1 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 04:29 pm: |
|
Sentence: This place is just like it used to be when I used to be here a few years ago. Translation: Tá an áit seo go direach mar a bhiodh sé nuair a bhínn anseo cupla bliain* ó shin. *Why isn't it the plural of 'bliain', 'blianta'? Is this sentence a bit strange? Does anyone have a better example of direct relative clauses? |
|
Drochfhuaimniú
Member Username: Drochfhuaimniú
Post Number: 28 Registered: 07-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 04:39 pm: |
|
This was told to me when I made my first post; Basically when you already have an identifier of the quantity such as cúpla you don't need to write the plural. So it was incorrect when I wrote "cúpla ceisteanna" and it would (presumably) be incorrect to write "cúpla bliain" I was under the impression that the plural forms of "bliain" were "bliain, bhliain, bliana" and "mbliana" Sean-mhian an tsiubhail ag preabadh..
|
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 110 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Saturday, August 20, 2005 - 05:27 pm: |
|
"cúpla" (that's the standard spelling, by the way, Cois Fhairrge pronunciation notwithstanding) is always followed by a singular noun: cúpla duine, cúpla lá, etc. The sentence seems fine to me. (Message edited by dennis on August 20, 2005) |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 728 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 01:15 pm: |
|
Followed by singular in the nominative cúpla buachaill cúpla bean cúpla bliain |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 603 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 06:05 pm: |
|
Yes, and the plural form is blianta(í). There's a special plural form that is used only after numbers (3-10 and those whose unity is between 3 and 9): bliana. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 4 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 04:33 pm: |
|
Thanks, Lughaidh! I learned something new today too! Could you give me an example of what you said just there, please? (And thanks to you others as well of course!!!) (Message edited by norwegiandame on August 22, 2005) |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 606 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 06:38 pm: |
|
Yes: bliain amháin dhá bhliain trí bliana ceithre bliana cúig bliana sé bliana seacht mbliana ocht mbliana naoi mbliana deich mbliana aon bhliain déag dhá bhliain déag trí bliana déag... etc fiche bliain trí bliana is fiche triocha bliain ceithre bliana is triocha (or ceithre bliana déag is fiche) etc. |
|
Séamas_Ó_neachtain
Member Username: Séamas_Ó_neachtain
Post Number: 135 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 03:42 pm: |
|
Ach: Blianta fada ó shin le blianta Blianta na drochaimsire That's the regular plural. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 6 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:57 am: |
|
But Lughaidh, that 'dhá bhliain' is not in my book. How come you can lenite just one of the numbers? I believed you lenited all numbers from one to six, and from seven to ten you had eclipsis. That's what my book says. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 738 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
|
quote:I believed you lenited all numbers from one to six, and from seven to ten you had eclipsis. That's what my book says. Correct, as in: aon bhata dhá bhata trí bhata ceithre bhata cúig bhata sé bhata seacht mbata ocht mbata naoi mbata deich mbata but then we come to "bliain", which is just plain irregular: aon bhliain dhá bhliain trí bliana ceithre bliana cúig bliana sé bliana seacht mbliana 8 mbliana 9 mbliana 10 mbliana You also have "ceann": aon cheann dhá cheann trí cinn ceithre cinn cúig cinn sé cinn seacht gcinn ocht gcinn naoi gcinn deich gcinn |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 621 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 02:49 pm: |
|
>But Lughaidh, that 'dhá bhliain' is not in my book. How >come you can lenite just one of the numbers? I believed >you lenited all numbers from one to six, and from seven >to ten you had eclipsis. That's what my book says. Yes, but your book forgets something: in Irish, after numbers (except 1 and 2) you can put a noun in the singular OR in the plural. In the singular, your noun will be lenited after 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and eclipsed after 7, 8, 9, 10. In the plural, your noun will have no change after 3, 4, 5, 6, and will be eclipsed after 7, 8, 9, 10. (I already said that after 1 and 2, the noun can't be in the plural). So, let’s take a noun like "cat". aon chat (amháin), dhá chat, trí chat/trí cait, ceithre chat/cait, ... seacht gcat/gcait, ocht gcat/gcait... Now, there's a small number of special nouns that can't be put in the singular after numbers (except 1 and 2, again). They have to be in the plural form after them, and in then they can have a special plural form for numbers (different from the normal plural, used in other cases). Example: bliain, troigh (as a measure of length), ceann (as a pronoun), etc. Aon bhliain, dhá bhliain, trí bliana... seacht mbliana. Aon troigh, dhá throigh, trí troithe... seacht dtroithe. |
|
Dalta Unregistered guest Posted From:
| Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 07:12 pm: |
|
I was always taught that putting the plural after numbers is wrong, you just put a h or urú and use the singular. Was I wrong or is that an Ulster thing? |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 625 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
|
Nope, you will find that in any dialect and in the standard as well (I think, but ’New Irish Grammar’ doesn’t seem to mention it). Maybe it isn't as usual as taking the singular, that's all. >you just put a h or urú and use the singular. Although you're talking about séimhiú here, about that "h", it reminds me that when you use the PLURAL form, after 3, 4, 6, a noun in the plural beginning by a vowel will have a prefixed h-: trí huaire, ceithre huaire, sé huaire (but cúig uaire). Note also that séimhiú only exists on consonants. Despite what some teachers say, prefixing h- to a vowel isn’t a séimhiú at all. It’s easy to verify it: when you have séimhiú on a consonant, in the same situation a vowel won’t be changed; when you have a prefixed h- to a vowel, there won’t be any séimhiú on a vowel: a mhadadh (his dog) - a athair (his father) a madadh (her dog) - a hathair (her father) na huain (the lambs) - na capaill (the horses) an chluas (the ear, feminine noun) - an iarracht (the attempt, feminine noun) And despite i heard from some bad teachers, a t- isn’t a "séimhiú for s’s", because prefixed t- only occurs after the article t-. You say "mo shúil" (my eye): that is séimhiú on s. |
|
Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 119 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
|
>>Maybe it isn't as usual as taking the singular, that's all. It's not natural for people who speak languages where nouns take the plural after numbers above 1. But it's perfectly natural to consider that, since the information is alread in the number, the is no need to repeat it (i.e. in turkish: ev "house", evler "[some] houses", üç ev "three house(s)".) |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 12 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 01:51 pm: |
|
Allright. I'm moving on to the next questions. Underlined words or parts of sentences and asterisks are used to mark what things I need to know about. 1) Tá [i]cúigear nó seisear[/i] atá in ann Fraincis a thiscint. How do you say two people, three people etc? 2) This sentence: "This here is the young crowd who are willing to do the work." I chose to translate to: "Sin é an dream óg atá sásta an obair a dhéanamh*. Is 'sin é' correct? In the back of my book it says 'seo é' but I was so sure that I was right. *regarding the lenition of this verb caused by 'a', are there any exceptions to this? 3) I chose to translate "Only one person was willing to come" into: Bhí aon duine amháin a bhí s´sta a theacht. In the back of my book it says "Ní raibh n ach aon duine ann a bhí sásta a theacht". This means something like "It was but one person who was willing to come". Is my own sentence good enough? |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 759 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 02:47 pm: |
|
1) When counting objects (ie. anything that isn't a person), you use: aon, dhá, trí, ceithre, cúig, sé, seacht, ocht, naoi, deich When counting people or persons: aon, beirt, triúr, ceathrar, cúigear, seisear, seachtar, ochtar, naonúr, deichniúr Like so: aon mhúinteoir beirt mhúinteoir triúr múinteoir ceathrar múinteoir cúigear múinteoir seisear múinteoir seachtar múinteoir (no urú) ochtar múinteoir naonúr múinteoir deichniúr múinteoir After 10, you just use normal counting: twenty seven teachers seacht múinteoir agus fiche The Irish for person is "duine", the plural of which is "daoine". If you wanted to say "four people" (or "four persons", whichever you like), then you could say: ceathrar duine ...but we've already established that "ceathrar" is only used when counting people, so the "duine" is superfluous. So you're left with: I saw four people. Chonaic mé ceathrar. 2) sin = that seo = this Seo an madra a rabhas ag caint faoi. This is the dog I was talking about. Sin an madra a rabhas ag caint faoi. That is the dog I was talking about. "this" just conveys an air of closer proximity to the thing in question. As for "a dhéanamh", yes these verbal nouns always get lenited after "a", but not if you leave out the "a", e.g.: Theip orm é a bhriseadh. I failed to break it. Bhí orm fágáil. I had to leave. 3) To get across the idea of "only" in Irish, you commonly use the combination of "ní" and "ach". I only drink tea. Ní olaim ach tae. I only went there once. Ní dheachaigh mé chuige ach uair amháin. You're the only one I love. Tusa an t-aon duine amháin ar a bhfuil grá agam. Níl grá agam ach ortsa. As for "Only one person was willing to come" Stick "ann" in your sentence and it's a little better: Bhí aon duine amháin ann a bhí sásta teacht (or "a theacht") But there's not much stress or emphasis in your sentence. I myself would've said something along the lines of: Aon duine amháin a bhí sásta teacht I think the combination of "aon" and "amháin" is enough stress without having to use the negative with "ach" as in: Ní raibh ach duine amháin sásta teacht. |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 645 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
>1) >When counting objects (ie. anything that isn't a >person), you use: >aon, dhá, trí, ceithre, cúig, sé, seacht, ocht, naoi, >deich It would be clearer to say "when in your sentence, the number is followed by a noun (which doesn't represent a person)". Because when you count something aloud: "a haon, a dó, a trí, a ceathair", etc, you're counting objects but these aren't the same numbers as when you say "x things". >seachtar múinteoir (no urú) >ochtar múinteoir >naonúr múinteoir >deichniúr múinteoir ? no urú after these: seachtar ban = 7 women. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 16 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
|
Scríobh Fear na mbróg: "Theip orm é a bhriseadh. I failed to break it. Bhí orm fágáil. I had to leave." >>> But both verbs here are infinitive right? What is the difference? Doesn't 'a' equal 'to'? Scríobh Fear na mbróg: "I only drink tea. Ní olaim ach tae." >>> Is olaim a compound of 'mé' and 'ól'? I am a bit insecure of your suggestion for the last sentence. The book I used was produced by a professor and you seem to teach me something completely different, about having more stress and emphasis. You don't need emphasis in this sentence in my opinion. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 765 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 04:55 pm: |
|
quote:But both verbs here are infinitive right? What is the difference? Doesn't 'a' equal 'to'? Common usage goes as follows: If there's no noun, don't use "a", as in: Theip orm imeacht go dtí an Spáinn. D'éirigh liom dúiseacht roimh an gcósúir. Bhí orm fágail sular shroich an múinteoir an áit. First, let's look at direct speech orders: Cuir an litir isteach sa bhosca. Déan d'obair bhaile. Ná déan dearmad ar do dheartháir. When you put them in indirect speech, you move the verb to directly after the noun and you stick "a" before it. In most cases, this means that the verb goes to the end of the sentence, but not always if there's prepositions and the like: Dúirt sé liom an litir a chur isteach sa bhosca. Dúirt sé liom m'obair bhaile a dhéanamh. Dúirt sé liom gan dearmad a dhéanamh ar mo dheartháir. "a" really doesn't have a meaning in this context, it's just a neat little thing you stick in between the noun and the verb. Just like how you have "a dog" in English... the "a" doesn't really "mean" anything. You could say that it means "to" as in "to do", but that will just confuse people when you start leaving it out, as in: Theip orm imeacht. quote:Is olaim a compound of 'mé' and 'ól'? Present Tense, First Person. I drink = Ólaim You drink = Ólann tú He drinks = Ólann sé / sí We drink = Ólaimid Yous drink = Ólann sibh They drink = Ólann siad You could think of "ólaim" as "[ólann] + [mé]", but note that you'll rarely (if ever) see it written as "Ólann mé". As regards your sentence: Let's analyse it. What is the purpose of communicating this sentence to someone? What exactly are you trying to communicate: A) The amount of people who were willing to come B) The fact that only one person would come If it were A, you could simply say: Bhí aon duine sásta teacht. But it's rare that you'd see this, I think. Such a sentence would have come after discussion about a particular event -- as such, I would presume that rather than trying to express the number of people who were coming, the speaker was trying to stress (possibly in a negative frustrated way, though not necessarily) the complete deficit of people who would come. As such, the pertinent information would be taken out of the sentence and an "is" construction would be most likely used: Is aon duine amháin a bhí sásta teacht. At this point the sentence is still objective though, as there has been no injection of opinion, just a statement of facts. The addition of "only" though makes it subjective and shows that the speaker feels that "one" is a very small amount: Ní raibh ach aon duine amháin sásta teacht. I'm trying to explain how this works in my head, but to be honest... I just picked it up after reading and listening to sentence after sentence, and eventually just found myself using particular constructs at particular times. I had the same problem with not knowing whether to use the genitive case, or whether to use the preposition "de"... I never really got a definite answer, I just sort of "copped" it after a while. |
|
Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 129 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 07:42 pm: |
|
Small correction(s) on the attempt of grammatical explanation: >>"a" really doesn't have a meaning in this context, it's just a neat little thing you stick in between the noun and the verb. You're close to reality indeed! This particular "a" (not to be confused with the other a's in Irish) is a linker and has a purely syntactical fonction. To make it short, "a" stands for "the following verbal noun is to be considered as a secondery verb (which has an objet and is directed towards the main verb (or conjugated verb)). From this point of view, "a" has no meaning per se. >>Just like how you have "a dog" in English... the "a" doesn't really "mean" anything. Unfortunately, the comparison doesn't work: because "a" in "a dog" does really mean something. Its meaning is very abstract, so you can't picture it as you can picture a dog, but it is nonetheless real. |
|
Fear_na_mbróg
Member Username: Fear_na_mbróg
Post Number: 769 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
|
In English, we have the definite article indicator: "the dog" But... we also have an indefinite article indicator: "a dog" You can sort of see how the "a" is superfluous, i.e. there's no "the" so we can assume it's indefinite. Sure we discard it with a lot of nouns in anyway: I want sugar. I like water. Grass is green. And anyway, in Irish, I've seen the "a" left out plenty of times: Dúirt sé liom an doras dúnadh. Dúirt sé liom m'obair bhaile déanamh. Not sure which dialect does it but I've definitely seen it written. |
|
Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 130 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
|
>>You can sort of see how the "a" is superfluous, i.e. there's no "the" so we can assume it's indefinite. Sure we discard it with a lot of nouns in anyway: I want sugar. I like water. Grass is green. simple example: i need brown sugar for my cake i need a brown sugar for my cake (i need the brown sugar for my cake) the difference in the meaning between the first two sentences is due to the added meaning of "a" in the second one. you didn't "discard" the "a" in the examples you gave: considering the sentences, the added meaning of "a" would be inappropriate, therefore you don't add it. (For the exact same reason, you can't say "can you give pen?" but have to say "can you give me a pen") |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 158 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
|
FnB a dúirt: quote:And anyway, in Irish, I've seen the "a" left out plenty of times: Dúirt sé liom an doras dúnadh. Dúirt sé liom m'obair bhaile déanamh. Ababú. Bheidís sin lochtach sna canúintí uilig (Gaeilge na hAlban san áireamh) ar feadh m'eolais, gan trácht ar an gCaighdeán. I mean, is féidir go bhfuil dul amú orm, ach ba mhaith liom samplaí den chomréir sin a fheiceáil. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 18 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 06:23 pm: |
|
This is just confusing. Could someone with real competence give me a resumé? :( |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 168 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 08:42 pm: |
|
quote:Could someone with real competence give me a resumé? Demanding, aren't you? Tá _Learning Irish_ agat, nach bhfuil? Tá Ó Siadhail iontaofa. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 21 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Yes, I am a bit demanding. That's because I want to learn the language. And when Fear na mbróg talks about using 'is' in my third sentence.. My Irish isn't that advanced yet. I have learned about the copula but, "Is aon duine amháin a bhí sásta teacht." is new to me. The book I use is splendid, Dennis, but it does lack a a few more examples and explanations. I'm just eager to learn, that's why I'm so demanding. Please forgive me if it gets annoying. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 22 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
|
I guess I should start reading more to understand it properly. Now I have to move on to the next questions. I hope double posting is not a problem. I just need to separate things here. :-) Btw, I use the Connemara dialect. Maybe that is why I don't understand. "...tháinig sé abhaile agus dúirt sé g oraibh sé réidh ag plé leis na carranna agus go raibh sé ag goil ag foghlaim ceird eicínt eile." What I want an opinion on is "ag goil ag foghlaim" which literally means "going learning". Would it not sound better with "ag goil a foghlaim" - "going to learn"? I know that "ag" is used in progressive construction, and in my opinion "ag goil a foghlaim" sounds a bit more natural. Perhaps you could even leave out "a" in some dialects(like Fear na mbróg mentioned was possible). |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 175 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
quote:"Is aon duine amháin a bhí sásta teacht." This may have been explained earlier in the thread, but here's my take on it. 1) This is a fronted "transformation" of the unmarked sentence: Bhí aon duine amháin sásta teacht. = One person was willing to come. The fronting serves to emphasize the subject. 2) aon duine amháin = one person duine amháin = one person aon duine = any person 3) In Conamara, and probably elsewhere, you would hear "sásta a theacht" rather than "sásta teacht". Same thing there with "sásta a dhul". I don't know why, it just is. Actually, "sásta a theacht" sounds more natural to me, and it's what I'd normally say! Note that with other verbal nouns there is no lenition, even in Conamara: sásta fanacht = glad to wait sásta imeacht = happy to leave |
|
Max
Member Username: Max
Post Number: 137 Registered: 05-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 01:21 pm: |
|
>>This is a fronted "transformation" of the unmarked sentence: Quite right! This kind of sentences with a "fronted tranformation" are called cleft structures (because you separate from the verb what you want to emphasize by fronting it - the process is called cleavage). Cleft structures and relative structures look much alike, and you will most of the time read in grammar books that "a bhí sásta teacht" in your example is a relative clause... but in fact its not. |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 176 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 02:29 pm: |
|
quote:"ag goil ag foghlaim" which literally means "going learning". Would it not sound better with "ag goil a foghlaim" That's a peculiarity of the dialect. Elsewhere, it would be "ag dul a fhoghlaim". Note that the "a" before the verbal noun is a reduced form of "do" and lenites accordingly. I think "ag dul ag snámh" (= going swimming, going to swim) sounds just fine, but I've heard speakers of other dialects make fun of it. They'd say "ag dul a shnámh". |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 24 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
|
I see. I'm looking forward to being made fun of. :-) Here's a new little query: Direct Relative Clauses I've come across a few sentences where a direct relative clause is used, but I didn't see the logic in it. This is an example: " 'Tá sé ceart go leor a bheith ag caint ar an oideachas', a deirimse, 'ach an mbeidh páí ar bith ag Pádraig chúns a bheas* sé ag foghlaim teangacha?' " I don't understand why 'a bheas' is used here. And! "Tá Cáit go díreach mar a bhí sí inné." Does this literally mean "Cáit is (today) exactly who she was yesterday" ? Edit! Found another example: "Nuair a bhí mise óg..." (Message edited by norwegiandame on September 04, 2005) |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 199 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 03:44 pm: |
|
quote:" an mbeidh páí ar bith ag Pádraig chúns a bheas* sé ag foghlaim teangacha?" I don't understand why 'a bheas' is used here. I'm surprised to see "chúns" (= chomh fada agus) in a text for learners! Anyway, it's literally "so long (and) that he will be learning". Why wouldn't it be the direct relative? BTW, we often throw "agus" into constructions where it seems to have very little obvious meaning. quote:"Tá Cáit go díreach mar a bhí sí inné." Does this literally mean "Cáit is (today) exactly who she was yesterday" ? = Cáit is exactly as she was yesterday. Cáit is (still) just the way she was yesterday. Ceist agam ort anois! What does this sentence mean: Tá Cáit go díreach mar a raibh sí inné. :-) |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 26 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 04:44 pm: |
|
Dennis, I'm afraid I can't answer your question. I have learned nothing of 'a raibh' at all. It sounds like we are speaking of past tense though. You're suprised to see 'chúns'? I'm surprised it is used in the beginning of a sentence. I'm used to the verb being that. I knew what the last sentence meant, Dennis. I was just looking to find out why 'a bhi´' is used. I've learned that direct relative clauses are "that, which, whom". "Tá Cáit go díreach mar a bhí sí inné" becomes incomprehensible. "Cáit is exactly WHO she was yesterday"? I have also found 'is' used instead of 'agus'. What is the rule for this? (Message edited by norwegiandame on September 04, 2005) |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 200 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 05:02 pm: |
|
quote:"Cáit is exactly WHO she was yesterday"? I'm confused. Why do you insist on "who"? "Mar" means "as, like, how". Words like that are followed by the relative in Irish: conas atá tú = how are you? mar atá tú = as you are cad é mar atá tú = how are you? cathain a bheas tú anseo? = when will you be here? BTW, "mar" followed by the indirect relative means "where", so: mar atá tú = as you are mar a bhfuil tú = where you are |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 684 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 06:53 pm: |
|
>That's a peculiarity of the dialect. Elsewhere, it >would be "ag dul a fhoghlaim". Donegal: ag gabháil a (dh’) fhoghlaim. >Note that the "a" before the verbal noun is a reduced form of "do" and lenites accordingly. >I think "ag dul ag snámh" (= going swimming, going to >swim) sounds just fine, but I've heard speakers of >other dialects make fun of it. They'd say "ag dul a >shnámh". I think, where people say "dul" (so, Munster), they don’t use a + verbal noun, but ag + verbal noun. In Connemara they say "ag goil", in DOnegal "ag gabháil". >cathain a bheas tú anseo? = when will you be here? Sounds odd to me. Cathain is Munster, a bheas is Ulster and maybe Connemara. I think that all relative forms in -s have disappeared in Munster. |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 201 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 07:51 pm: |
|
quote:I think, where people say "dul" (so, Munster), they don’t use a + verbal noun, but ag + verbal noun. In Connemara they say "ag goil", in DOnegal "ag gabháil". You've located "dul", "goil" and "gabháil" accurately (and there's "dol" in Scotland, too), but all that's quite irrelevant to my written Irish. I ALWAYS write "dul" because that is the most common form in writing. Some people would even call it the norm. I choose not to be dialectical when writing Irish. quote:>cathain a bheas tú anseo? = when will you be here? Sounds odd to me. Cathain is Munster, a bheas is Ulster and maybe Connemara. I think that all relative forms in -s have disappeared in Munster. Same response. If I wanted to be purely Conamara-ish, I'd write "Cén uair a bheas tú anseo?" (Yes, "bheas" is v. common in that area, too.) But I LIKE to mix vocabulary and idioms from different dialects. That's the norm outside the Gaeltachtaí, as far as I can tell. Sometimes I use "fós" and sometimes "go fóill", usually "freisin", but sometimes "fosta". That's just my chosen style. Yours, Lughaidh, is at the opposite extreme. You love dialect, and I wish you'd give it a rest. De gustibus non est disputandem! ;-) (Message edited by dennis on September 04, 2005) |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1861 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 05:00 am: |
|
Dúirt an Ainnir Ioruach: quote:I have also found 'is' used instead of 'agus'. What is the rule for this? is or 's are abbreviations of agus Dennis cecinit: quote:De gustibus non est disputandem! Nó "beatha duine a thoil, agus ní lia duine ná dúil". Gan trácht air: Bíonn blas ar an mbeagán. |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 688 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 08:21 am: |
|
>Same response. If I wanted to be purely Conamara-ish, >I'd write "Cén uair a bheas tú anseo?" (Yes, "bheas" is >v. common in that area, too.) But I LIKE to mix >vocabulary and idioms from different dialects. That's >the norm outside the Gaeltachtaí, as far as I can tell. >Sometimes I use "fós" and sometimes "go fóill", >usually "freisin", but sometimes "fosta". Déan do rogha rud. Is fearr liomsa scríobh i gcanúint atá ann ná i liothrach canúintí nár labhair duine ariamh. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1863 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 10:40 am: |
|
Nach duine é Dennis? Fiú i measc bunadh na Gaeltachta, tá daoine ann a tharraingíonn as toibreacha na gcanúintí eile. Féach, mar shampla, an réamhrá do Fiche Bliain ag Fás, nuair a deir an fear eagar go raibh corr fhocail ó Chonamara ag an Suillebháineach. |
|
Lughaidh
Member Username: Lughaidh
Post Number: 689 Registered: 01-2005
| Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 05:21 pm: |
|
>Nach duine é Dennis? Ní cainteoir dúchais é. Má thoisíonn tusa a labhairt ar nós cuma leat d’aon turas, ní dóigh liom gur féidir a ráidht gur Gaeilge cheart dhúchasach a bheas ann. >Fiú i measc bunadh na Gaeltachta, tá daoine ann a >tharraingíonn as toibreacha na gcanúintí eile. Tá, ach chan mórán. >Féach, mar shampla, an réamhrá do Fiche Bliain ag Fás, >nuair a deir an fear eagar go raibh corr fhocail ó >Chonamara ag an Suillebháineach. Ach tá teorainn ann. Ní hionann cupla focal a thógáilt ar iasacht agus achan rud a mheascadh le chéile. |
|
Aonghus
Member Username: Aonghus
Post Number: 1870 Registered: 08-2004
| Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 05:27 pm: |
|
Muise. Bigí in bhur dtost feasta agus éistíg le briathra Lughaidh fáidh. |
|
Norwegiandame
Member Username: Norwegiandame
Post Number: 28 Registered: 08-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
|
Dennis, do not dispare. You just explained what I needed to know. I'm sorry for the confusion. I didn't know that words like as, how and like needed the relative! Just, what is the difference between "conas atá tú = how are you?" and "cad é mar atá tú = how are you?" ? What other particular words need the relative? Scríobh Aonghus: "IS or 'S are abbreviations of AGUS" Thanks, wonderful! It's odd that Ó Siadhail doesn't explain such things in the book. Please, everyone, don't start confusing me with other dialects. I have enogh with Connemara at the moment. :-) |
|
Dennis
Member Username: Dennis
Post Number: 212 Registered: 02-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, September 06, 2005 - 02:01 pm: |
|
Dúirt tú: quote:Just, what is the difference between "conas atá tú = how are you?" and "cad é mar atá tú = how are you?" ? Agus ansin dúirt tú: quote:Please, everyone, don't start confusing me with other dialects. Okay. Then ignore "Conas atá tú?" and "Cad é mar atá tú?" for the time being and just stick with "Cén chaoi a bhfuil tú?" :-) |
|
|