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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (September-October) » Archive through September 06, 2005 » Extent of the Mayo gaeltacht/ whatever happened to the Clare gaeltacht? « Previous Next »

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Robert
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.160.254.41
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:39 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi,
just wondering on the gaeltacht in Mayo. http://www.udaras.ie/Images/maigheoI.jpg
I was under the impression that Ceathrú Thaidhg and its surrounds were the only areas where Irish was in actual usage.

Also, I know that for political reasons Cumman na nGael did not put any area of Clare into the gaeltacht, but for how many more generations was it still spoken?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1714
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

This might interest you:
http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1866

My impression is that all three areas in Mayo are very weak, with only a handful of daily speakers left in each.

http://www.cic.ie/cgi-bin/newsitem.asp?idarticle=95

If I recall correctly, the book linked to above mentioned about 1000 speaker in Iorrais. Can't rememeber what it said about the rest.

Don't know about Clare.

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Breacban
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Username: Breacban

Post Number: 115
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 09:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I was in mayo recently in the gaeltacht there. I heard no irish. The last irish speaker died in west clare in the 1970s near doolin.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 551
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

[quote]in the gaeltacht there. I heard no irish.[/quote]

Why is it called Gaeltacht then???

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 1715
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ní ionann an Ghaeltacht agus an Ghaeltacht Oifigiúl. Is iomaí áit atá sa Ghaeltacht Oifigiúl, ach nach cloistear Gaeilge ionntu, faraor.

Tá stair fada casta, agus polaitíocht freisin, ag baint leis an cheist seo.

http://www.pobail.ie/ie/AnGhaeltacht/CoisteComhairleacharThuarascailChoimisiunna Gaeltachta/

Táthar ag dul i ngleic leis an fadhbh - go séimh, chun cailliúnt votaí a sheachaint!

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Socadán
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Posted From: 81.134.150.156
Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As far as I know, Irish has died out as a community language in North Mayo. It might be spoken privately in homes, but not in out and about in public.


.

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Domhnall
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Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Tá duine des na daoine im rang i gcoláiste ina chónaí i mbéal an mhuiréid agus dúirt sé liom nach gcloistear Gaeilge timpeall na h-áite. Ach, bíonn a chlann agus roinnt mhaith daoine eile timpeall ag úsáid í mar phríomhtheanga.
Ceapaim go bhfuil an ceart ag Breacban faoi Chontae an Chláir.
Bhíodh Gaeilge bheo i dtír eoghain, i Lú, agus i gcontae Aontroma sa bhliain 1900.. is dóigh go raibh roinnt mhaith condae eile faoin am sin chomh maith.

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Breacban
Member
Username: Breacban

Post Number: 116
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ta an deieardh cainteoir duchaisach sa Lu a cur i deag sa blian 1962 is docha. Caithlin ni dhoibin ab aimn di.
Ta cupla data eile a faighte agam le dearnai.

Tir eogain 1952, Aontroma 1974 ("na gleanna"), Caill Chainnaigh 1947, Co Loch Garmain ("Rath an nIuir") 1904, Co. Muineachain 1954.

Cuirios ceall ar 'nois.

de reir na statisistici sa census ta ana chuid den bpobail ag siul timpeall 's labhart gaeluinn chomh mhinic is feider leo. b'feidir ba coir go mbeadh an mhinistir alan limistear ar nos iadsan mhaigh Eo a baint amach as Ghaeltacht Oifigiúl. bfearr liom 18 wards le fior ghaeluinn na 154 wards gan aon gaeilge ar chor ar bith iontu.

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Robert
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Posted From: 63.160.254.41
Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 07:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Proinsias Ó Conluain, The last native Irish-speakers of Tyrone, Dúiche Néill 4 (1989), p.111, died late 1950
http://traceyclann.com/index_files/..%5Cfiles%5Ctyrone.htm

This page details the names and ages of native speakers in South armagh. Notice the ages by 1901, and most were born in the Famine years, which may suggest that it was this era that the cut off really cut in, and it was anglo-days ahoy from then on in

One Edward Kelly from Glasdrumman was returned as 'Head of Family' at the ripe of age of 99, and still married!
http://www.pdevlinz.btinternet.co.uk/nativespeakers1901.htm

In this link one can see census data from 1901 and 1911. Mayo returns irish and English (which probably mean they had poor English) and the northern counties do not seem to return any speakers (even tho the link above shows this to be untrue)
http://www.pdevlinz.btinternet.co.uk/Sitemap.htm

Monaghan: "An Ghaeilge is no longer spoken as the first language in Co Monaghan. The last native Irish speaker in Inniskeen, for example, died in 1952".
http://www.monaghancdb.ie/culturepp.htm

Heres a bit on Leitrim, Cavan, and Sligo:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/cainnteoir/breifne.txt
One qoute:Glenade/Leitrim
Ó Buachalla, "old man... speaks profound Irish" (born 1846)

In Cavan:
Tomás Mag SHAMRADHÁIN, Eshvagh
Breifne 8:1 97 (prize at first Glangevlin aeraidheacht 1920)
Breifne 8:2 248 (native speaker)
What is 'aeraidheacht'? A form of the world oireachtas? I once found a link on the net about a gaelic academy in the 20's in north letrim, but it is long shut down (one assumes)

You know, there was an older member of my family who learned to speak irish fluently while on the east coast in the 50's. He could have done himself a service by heading nearer to home and seeing what the border counties had to offer. It also reminds me of a story my mother told me about been in Mayo on some trip when she was young. They had to go off the raod to a 'míon-bhaile', I suppose you could call it, where upon entering the house they had to converse with the children, as the old women, dressed all in black, had not a word of english between them.

Its like a world you can almost touch, but falls out of reach between ones fingers, like sand

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 559
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:31 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>They had to go off the raod to a 'míon-bhaile', I >suppose you could call it, where upon entering the >house they had to converse with the children, as the >old women, dressed all in black, had not a word of >english between them.

Corraíonn an scéal seo mo chroí.

Cuireann sé i gcuimhne domh rud a tharla domh uair (bhí sin sé bliana ó shoin b’fhéidir) dá rabh mé ins an bhaile bheag os cionn Thráigh Mhachaire Rabhartaigh, Mín Lárach is ainm dó, más buan mo chuimhne, ar chladach Thuaisceart Thír Chonaill (ón áit sin tchí tú Oileán Thoraí má amharcann tú amach i dtreo ’n iarthuaiscirt - agus má tá an aimsir geal go leor). Agus bhí mé le cairde ansin ’s bhí muid rud beag caillte. Agus bhuail muid doras chionn do na toighthí dá rabh ann. D’fhoscail óigbhean (álainn :-) ) an doras, mhínigh muid daoithe go rabh muid caillte, srl. Leig sí isteach muid agus thug sí cupáin tae dúinn, tháinig an chuid eile don teaghlach isteach sa chisteanach ina rabh muidinne: a níon, a fear céile agus a máthair. Agus mhínigh muid an scéal don mhnaoi i mBéarla (aige’n am sin cha rabh Gaeilg líofa againn) ach cha labhróchadh sí féin ach i nGaeilg lena fear, lena níon agus lena máthair, agus do réir achan chosúlachta, cha dtuigfeadh an tseanbhean Béarla: d’aistrigh an óigbhean achan fhocal Béarla go Gaeilg daoithe... (dá mbíodh Béarla aici seo, is dóigh liom nach ndéanfadh ’n óigbhean ach an scéal a dh’inse aríst daoithe i mBéarla cheart, rud nach dtearn sí...)

Ba bhreá liom a ghabháil ar aist ansin, le feiceáilt an dtáinig athrú ar an áit agus ar an teangaí atá á labhairt thall...

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 560
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An excerpt of one of the websites Robert mentioned:

Name: Agnew Bridget, Place: Carnally; Wife of John Farmer; Literacy: RW; Age: 64; Married; County where born: Armagh
Agnew John Carnally Head of Family Farmer CR 65 Married Armagh
Agnew John Glasdrumman Head of Family Farmer RO 63 Married Armagh

The abbreviations RW, CR, RO are "literacy", but what do they mean?

Thank you.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 441
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 11:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

i wouldn imagine "read and write" "cannot read" and "read only"

but that is entirely a guess

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Robert
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.160.254.41
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Lughaidh,
thanks for the scéal. In one sense it is heartening to find places so strong, but there must be a feeling of shame sometimes in the extreme north west about if the community is somehow atavistic. When that feeling gets too strong, as it did in Maigh Eo, then its curtains.

I emailed the man who compiled some of those records:

"Those are the three allowed responses to the "literacy" question, so it
seems reasonable to assume that the three abbreviations stand for those
responses"

so he thinks Antaine's guess is correct.

He also had a story from Daithi Mac An Bhreathnaigh, Sligeach (it is in the http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/cainnteoir/breifne.txt link)

"I recently (Dec 2004) travelled out to Aclare from my home town of Sligo to investigate
the Breac-Ghaeltacht of yesteryear and in conversation with retired Aclare head of school
Phylis Tuohy and her husband Daniel it was brought to my attention by them that Sligo's
last native speakers of the native dialect of Connaught which was spoken there for
thousands of years were still alive until as recently as 1999. Unbelievable."

"The Deasy brothers of Culdaly, Kilmacthigue, in an extremely isolated part of the Ox
Mountains were alive until 1999 when they died within three days of each other. Both
men were bachelors and have no survivors. They were born in 1903 and 1906 respectively,
at a time when the townland of Culdaly had 32 inhabited households of which 30 were
Irish-speaking. Most of these speakers were elderly but it seems that the Deasys were
an exception insofar as the children of this household were for some reason being brought
up with Irish as their first language."

"According to locals the isolated terrain in what was once an almost inaccessable part of
the Ox Mountains, the fact that both Deasy parents were relatively old when their children
were born, and the isolated lifestyle lived by the bachelor brothers all contributed
to the survival of Irish as their native tongue through their lives. It's a truly
incredible story as most academic sources believed that Sligo's last native speakers
came off Inishmurray island in 1948 and were dead by 1980."

"Unfortunately it seems no one knew about this remarkable fact until Daniel Tuohy
met them during his time as a community alert officer and whilst Donal made no recording
of them he did at least locate them and converse with them."

Why was there no recording? The gallows for them...

He also told me about the Dögen recording scheme of 1930s. These recordings may be listened to (on CD) at the Library of the Royal Irish Academy, Dawson Street, Dublin.
(Oh they are great boys, like in the Celt DIAS spot near Baggot Street. While as state employees they are paid to deal with this material they find it profoundly amusing that anyone whould ever want to bother with it. When you turn up to DIAS, they are never there, but reappears 2 hours later. In other words they are never there, but get the secretary to phone them if anyone (an inspector) calls. Imagine their disappointment to find it is only a punter, which they had to lower themselves to talk to. Imagine! He might have a job which involves work. he labours!)

I suppose its also illegal to make recordings of them just because total control of everything is a prerequisit of beurocracy, regardless of the ironies it throws up.

Anyway,

John Deasy (Seán Mac a' Déise), Ballycashel, Aclare
LA1125g1
An Bhearthóg (dán)
LA1125g2
Coill dá Laogh (amhrán)

is supposedly the father of the two bucks on the Oxs, which is near enough

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Breacban
Member
Username: Breacban

Post Number: 117
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

i think your post was very intersting robert. I think it is vitally important that we keep these recording and they should be kept in the museum on kildare street. copies should be made and these sent out to various schools in each region. for instance if there are recordings from sligo of native speakers from sligo these tapes should be used in the local gaelscoileanna and the public schools as the basis of the curriculum for irish in each region. This I doubt will ever happen its much easier to change road signs to irish and pretend everything is hunky dory than to actually try something radical. lack of imagination is the reason why the government didnt come up with the idea of the gaelscoil themselves. I also think that a new office should be set up to deal with the recordings and their distribution and it should be staffed by young people commited to irish rather than by the uninterested.

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 01:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Class" as well as "culture" plays a big role in the failure of hubristic bureaucrats and Irish govt. mo/rgachta mo/rgacht to appreciate and cherish the language of the old breac-Ghaeltachta. The Irish people in these areas were daibhir.

As they say in Ulster:

Cha dtuigeann an seaghach (sách) an seang, má thuigeann chan in am é.

DC

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Dancas1
Member
Username: Dancas1

Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 09:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

belatedly...a friend from Clare writes:

a few words on the Clare Gaelteacht....growing up in the 50s and 60s,
Irish was spoken in Clare mainly along the west coast but especially
around Carriagholt, Moher-Doolin area and Gleninagh near Ballyvaughan.
As a kid I remember road signs around Ennistymon and Lahinch in Irish.
My cousins house in Lahinch was an all Irish household and there were 2
or 3 households in Ennistymon who used Irish as much as English. Irish
speakers from North Clare would gather in our pub during fair days and
market days and as my dad had very good Irish, the Aran people used
come in as well. At school I found it hard to equate the Irish I heard
at home with what was taught. Looking back on it, I think the language
I spoke as a toddler was a mix of Irish and English. To the best of my
knowledge, most of the county was considered a breac Gaelteacht and
entitled to Gaelteacht grants. The last speaker in Gleninagh died
around 1987. Around Doolin, there were a few Irish speakers in
Fisherstreet up to the early 1990's. Paddy Pharaic Mhichil Shannon was
the last of them. Micho Russell also had good but limited Irish...both
his parents were native speakers. Fisherstreet (Doolin) was the last
place in Clare where there was an Irish speaking community and this was
helped by the proximity of the Aran Islands to Doolin.

DC

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 239
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Maigh Eo: I dtuaisceart Mhaigh Eo níl ach ceantar amháin, thart ar Cheathrú Thaidhg, ar féidir a áireamh mar cheantar Gaeltachta. I ndeisceart an chontae, taobh ó dheas de Thuar Mhic Éidigh, tá greim áirithe i gcónaí ag an nGaeilge thart ar Fhionnaithe. Tá a dhóthain Gaeilge fós in Eachléim le gur fiú seans a thabhairt don cheantar. Tá sé ar aon dul le Gaeltacht na Rinne. Ní labhrann ach duine fásta amháin as gach 14 an teanga go laethúil i mBéal an Mhuirthid. Tá rian na Gaeilge fós sa Chorrán ach tá Acaill go maith faoi bhun 20%."
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~cuisle1/eagran4/census.htm

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~cuisle1/eagran4/maigh_eo.htm

http://www.gaelport.com/index.php?page=clippings&id=110

http://www.cnag.ie/nuacht/2004/whatfut.htm

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Domhnall
Member
Username: Domhnall

Post Number: 73
Registered: 06-2005


Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Cá bhfaightear an 'fianaise' sin sa chéad ceann msh. - Anuas air sin, is Gaeilgeoirí laethúla thart ar 50,000 duine fásta eile taobh amuigh den Ghaeltacht.

Firic nó ficsean?
Bhi roinnt mhaith rudaí eile mar sin ann chomh maith..

Ní Síocháin Go Saoirse.
Is í slánú na Gaeilge athghabháil na Saoirse

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 241
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

« The barony of Erris occupies the north-west corner of the Co. Mayo...

...At two points in the barony I found Irish in full vigour as the vernacular : (1) Faulmore and adjacent townlands to the west ; (2) Dû Chaocháin, comprising Kilgalligan, Carrateigue, Stonefield, and Comboy, in the north of the barony beside Beinn Bhuí Head. At these two places Irish was in 1936 the everyday speech of old and young, and the majority of the children acquired their first knowledge of English on attending school. Many of the older people knew Irish only.

The entire population of the two islands of Inishkea had been accommodated in new holdings by the Irish Land Commission at Glosh and Nakil on the opposite mainland soon after 1930. In their new homes on the mainland these migrants from Inishkea formed a compact community whose main pursuit continued to be fishing. They have always been entirely Irish speaking.

Faulmore was, before the Land Commission's scheme of consolidation there was completed in 1936-37, an old-world rural village or 'baile', made up of a score or more of thatched houses built close to one another. The main harvest of the community was from the sea. With the coming of consolidation each household acquired additional land and a new dwelling on its own holding. The old village was demolished. In the past Faulmore had considerable contact with the Inishkea islands, and intermarriage between members of the two communities was not uncommon.

Doohoma is on the southern coast of the small peninsula or headland south-west of Geesala village, and has its extension in Ceann Reamhar Head pointing in the direction of Achill. In Doohoma in 1935 those of the older generation were fluent Irish speakers, but English was fast replacing Irish as the everyday speech of the younger generation and those of school-going age. There has been heavy emigration to Scotland and England for many years from Doohoma district...»

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-9.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
Member
Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 242
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Irish is still spoken in many villages in the western half of Curraun and the eastern half of Achill Island but, as is the unfortunate case in most Gaeltacht areas, it is rapidly dying. It was this fact that largely determined the form of the present work."

Gerard Stockman, "The Irish of Achill, Co. Mayo" (Belfast, 1974).

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 243
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 27, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"Tourmakeady itself, although the scene of strong anglicizing efforts by landlords and others in the 19th century, was entirely Irish-speaking at the beginning of this [20th] century, when an Irish college was established there. Irish is still a living language there, though the circumstances accompanying its use are changing at an ominous rate: many customs, pastimes, and beliefs, that were once part and parcel of the Irish speaker's world, are now moribund; and the innovations that replace them frequently involve foreign phrases and an alien vocabulary. The fact that it remains an economically under-developed area, with a high rate of emigration, has the twofold effect of reducing the number of speakers and increasing the import of English."

http://www.celt.dias.ie/publications/cat/e/e2-6.html

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Robert
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 209.172.115.112
Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Breacban,
"I also think that a new office should be set up to deal with the recordings and their distribution and it should be staffed by young people commited to irish rather than by the uninterested"

The problem is, in part, that Ireland was so Anglicised prior to independance, that any real modes of gaelicisation are compleatly alien to the establishment, and indeed of the country in general.

Apres 'independance' no questions were ever asked of the validity of the judiciary system, of governance, or of the schooling system, each of them a hand-me-down from England. Irish law is English law still etc

At this stage, English is only marginly less likely to become irish speaking than ireland...

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Dalta
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 83.70.240.222
Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Robert, it wasn't just that it had become anglicised, it was due in large part to the civil war and the leaders of the time. Most of them were guerilla fighters with no idea about economy or good governence, they just left it up to the Civil Servants.

Also, with the Civil War raging, the leaders had to concentrate on that and left the changes that needed to be made 'ar lár'. W.T. Cosgrave was intent on making the state work, rather than creating a new Utopia along the lines of Pearse and Dev and people. So, generally, they left it running the way it was in a lot of cases, which was a huge loss to Ireland, especially in Education, which is a horrendous blight on the lives of people, even nowadays.

The biggest pity was Eoin MacNeill, a commited scholar and lover of Irish and Irish culture. He just left things exactly the way they were and then managed to sit by while the Boundary Comission took the North.

I think saying "England is only marginly less likely to become irish speaking than ireland..." is a bit harsh, people still have an instinctive like for the language, if not a love and it's still part of our identity, making Irish people well disposed to it, if not willing to actually do anything for it.



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