A chairde,

At the end of lessons 18, I'm asked to translate "Where are those people from? I am not sure whether they are from France or Spain." I figured it would be something like:

"Cé as a bhfuil na daoine sin? Níl mé cinnte go bhfuil siad as an bhFrainc nó an Spáinn."

However, the book says that is wrong, and the following is correct:

"Cé as na daoine sin? Níl mé cinnte ar as an bhFrainc nó as an Spáinn iad." Now, why is it "ar as an" instead if "as an"? Also, in the question part, why is there no "a bhfuil"?
One more: why, in the correct book version of this answer, is there "iad" and not "siad" earlier in the clause? Basically, why is my answer wrong? Go raibh maith agaibh.

Harrison

>>why is there no "a bhfuil"?

because you don't say:
"tá siad as an bhFrainc."
but:
"Is as an bhFrainc iad."
(That is to say with the copula, and not "tá")


>>why is it "ar as an" instead if "as an"?

The clause that folllows "Níl mé cinnte" takes the form of a question, that is: begins with the interrogative particle. Since the copula is used, the clause begins with the "interrogative form of the copula", which is "ar" (at least in Cois Fhairrge), but "an" in standard Irish.


>>"iad" and not "siad"

Still because of the copula. (cf. "Is as an bhFrainc iad.")

Good explanation, Max.

One thing though:

"Ba" is the past tense of "Is".

The question form of "ba": ar : Ar mhadra é sin?!

The question form of "is": an : An madra é sin atá os mo chomhair?!

I would have said "ca bhfuil as na daoine sin?" but I'm afraid to ask why that's wrong.

Somehow I learned that "ca bhfuil" means "where is," as in "Ca bhfuil an bainne?"

A Phádraig, a chara,

You're correct in saying "Ca bhfuil an bainne," since the milk could be anywhere at any particular time.

But when we say where someone is from, as pointed out by Max, we use some form of the copula "is." For example, if I want to say I'm from New Joisey (Jersey) it would be "Is as New Jersey me." The copula is used instead of the verb "ta" because where you're from is a permanent thing as compared to where the milk is.

Dáithí

Go raibh maith agaibh, once again the members of the Daltaí board save the day.

The Official Standard is one thing. The Irish language is another.

An as an bhFrainc iad? = Ar as an bhFrainc iad? = Are they from France?

Arbh as an bhFrainc iad? = An mba as an bhFrainc iad? = Were they from France?

>>The Official Standard is one thing. The Irish language is another.

The Irish language is dialectalized.

"ar" and "an mba" are given by Ó Siadhail as the regular Cois Fhairrge forms.

Could anyone give the forms used in the other dialects ?

>I would have said "ca bhfuil as na daoine sin?" but I'm afraid to ask why that's wrong.

"Tá na daoine sin as BAC" doesn’t mean "those people are from Dublin", but another thing (like "there have just left Dublin" or something like that). And then the question would have been "Cá bhfuil na daoine sin as?". The right question for to ask where someone is from, is with the copula (IS): Cárb as na daoine sin? or Cárb as do na daoine sin? There are variants like Cé as... Cá as..., etc, but always with the copula.

>Somehow I learned that "ca bhfuil" means "where is," as in "Ca bhfuil an bainne?"

Right, but "where from" doesn’t use the same pattern.

>The copula is used instead of the verb "ta" because >where you're from is a permanent thing as compared to >where the milk is.

That’s a grammarians’ thing, but actually you can’t only summarize like that the difference between tá and is. It may be true but it’s not useful to say that because it’s not clear for learners. You can find examples in which that rule is wrong:

Tá mé i mo chónaí i nGaillimh > i live in Galway. Permanent. You can’t use "is" in such a sentence anyway.

If you say "tá an teach s’agam i nGaillimh", you use tá but it’s permanent (your house won’t move to Tralee with its small feet).


The most important thing to learn is:
- when you say that something is something (NOUN is NOUN, or PRONOUN is PRONOUN, or NOUN is PRONOUN, etc), like:
- I am a STUDENT
- MY TEACHER is A WOMAN
- IT is ME, etc

Then you have to use IS or an expression with a preposition like "tá mé i mo mhac léinn" (I am in my student), but never only tá like *tá mé mac léinn (impossible in any cases).

insn't ar used instead of an where you have a relative clause?

Instead of which "an" ?

instead of the present interrogative of the copula "an"

"ar" corresponds to the indirect form of the relative particle associated with the copula.

("feiceann sé an fear ar sagart é" ; "he sees the man who is (a) priest")


Such an expression as "the present interrogative of the copula "an"" is tricky because it refers to two different things :
- the interrogative particle
- the copula


The two notions being now sundered, I'll say that no "relative clause" can ever begin with "the interrogative particle".

The explanation is not simply grammatical, but also pragmatic. (But I won't give it unless someone is interested)

To be more precise:

"an" can be here:

- the interrogative (positive) particle before any regular verb in all tenses except the past of regular verb and some irregular ones

- the copula in its positive interrogative form in the present or future tenses.