I've been meaning to get this straight for quite awhile, so here goes:

Ceist:

which is preferable?

Is as Mhaigh Eo mé; go gcuidí sinn.

Is as Mhaigh Eo mé; go bhfóire sinn.

Corrections please.

(Message edited by pádraig on June 14, 2005)

go bhfoire Dia orainn (If you mean "God help us")

But it's been a long time since anybody in Ireland used that phrase....

"as" does not alter the noun which follows it, so get rid of that "h".

Is as Maigh Eo mé.

Or you can use the preposition "do":

Is as Maigh Eo dom.


I haven't a clue if "mé" Vs "dom" is dialectal... ?

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on June 15, 2005)

Go raibh maith agat. However, now and once again I'm confused over the prepositional pronoun usage, and apparently I don't know the objective case form of muid, which I thought was sinn.

Anyhow, I'm confused as to why the prepositional pronoun replaces a simple pronoun. for example, is the following incorrect?

Go mbeannaí Dia thú.

I translate that as (May)God bless you. Why would I say:

Go mbeannaí Dia duit?

Agus a hAonghus,

Which phrase? "God help us?" If so, I opt for its prompt restoration. If you're referring to the Mayo thing, it seems like half the Irish in the 1850 immigration into the Northeastern U.S. could say Is as Maigh Eo muid, and their descendants continue the practice.

The only place I ever saw Mayo, God help us is in Heinrich Bölls Irish Diary - he was in Ireland in the 1950's

I can't help you with the grammar.

But the phrase is "go bhfoire Dia orainn". I think you could say either "Go mbeannaí Dia thú" or "Go mbeannaí Dia dhuit", but they would have slightly different meanings - "God bless you" versus "God greet you"!

Should be spelt "go bhfóire Dia orainn".

bhfóire is pronounced /wo:r'@/ (Connemara), /wo:r'i/ (Donegal), /vo:r'@/ (Munster)

bhfoire would have been pronounced /wer'@/ or /wir'@/ or /ver'@/. Misspellings can induce a bad pronounciation...


>I haven't a clue if "mé" Vs "dom" is dialectal... ?

In Donegal, we use both: is as Doirí Beaga mé = is as Doirí Beaga domh. I don't know for other dialects.

even I'm familiar with Mayo: God help us from multiple sources and I would have only had the opportunity to hear it since 1995.

Although, I must say I'd love to know it's origin

Lughaidh - Why do you say "We in Donegal say......"? Do you live in Donegal or have family there? I was under the impression you live in FRance.

Lughaidh learned and identifies with Donegal Irish.

Bhí mé ag ceapadh go raibh an fada sin ar lár, GRMA, a Lughaidh.

---

Is foirm de fóirithint atá i "fóir".
fóirithint [ainm briathartha][ainmfhocal baininscneach den dara díochlaonadh]
cuidiú i nguais, tarrtháil, faoiseamh (go bhfóire Dia orainn); oiriúint (má fhóireann sé duit).

>Lughaidh - Why do you say "We in Donegal say......"? Do >you live in Donegal or have family there? I was under >the impression you live in FRance.

I’ve learnt Irish with Donegal native speakers. I’ve been living one year in Ulster in order to improve my Irish. Otherwise, I live in Brittany.

I'm still not clear as to why "Go gcuidí Dia orainn" is incorrect.

Anyone?

It isn't.

It should be Go gcuidí Dia linn

Orainn vs linn

What's the difference, and then I'll shut up.

The verb is "cuidigh". It means "help".

In English you simply say:

I helped John.


But in Irish we use a preposition and that preposition is "le". For learning purposes you could say that you "help with someone" in Irish. So:

Chuidigh mé le Seán.

The "wish" form of the verb "cuidigh" is "go gcuidí".

Go gcuidí Dia linn.
May God assist us.

You don't use "orainn" simply because it's the wrong preposition. ("orainn" = [ar + muid])

"cabhraigh" is another verb similar to "cuidigh". It also uses "le". I think of "cabhraigh" as "help", and "cuidigh" as "assist".

I said I'd shut up, but part of the question remains:

go bhfóire orainn

go gcuidí linn

Why the different prepositions if orainn is wrong?

A Phádraig, a chara,

In Irish, certain prepositions are always used with certain other other words. For example, the proposition in the first column below is always used with the verbs that appear in the second column.

ar:	achainigh, aitim, amharc, buaigh, ceil, crom, cuimhnigh, féach, glaoigh, iarr, impigh, scairt, teip, tosaigh, trácht
de:	fiafraigh, tit, tuirling
do:	beannaigh, comhairligh, diúltaigh, geall, géill, inis, maith, umhlaigh
le:	abair, cuidigh, éist, fan, scar, taitin

So as we see in the last column, cuidigh is always used with le. So we have

go gcuidí Dia linn
may God help us

Some other verbs are associated with more than one preposition and each of these prepositions changes the meaning of the verb. For example,

fóir ... ar = help, succour, relieve, save, e.g.,
go bhfóire Dia orainn
may God save us

while

fóir ... do = agree with, suit, fit, become, e.g.,
Ní fhóireann na bróga dó.
The shoes don't fit him.

You just have to learn which verb is associated with what preposition or prepositions. I do not know if there are any reasons why certain prepositions are linked to certain verbs. They just are. It is just part of the idiom that we learners must struggle with.

(Message edited by lúcas on June 18, 2005)

This happens with every language....

Go raibh maith agat, a Lucas. And I could probably find or devise some regulatory mechanism for explaining how each is used if I were dealing with English. But my unfamiliarity with Irish leaves me wondering whether I have lost my mind each time a question such as this arises.

Note to native speakers wishing to be of help: The simplest of explanations may baffle the neophyte when what is second nature to the native is assumed to be obvious.

Years ago when I was being taught to use a computer (this was before the days of Windows and indoor plumbing) I was instructed to begin by "booting" the PC. Fortunately I didn't take the instruction literally by kicking $1,200 worth of hardware across the room. But the fact remained that when one doesn't know how to turn the damn thing on, instruction must begin with "here's the on switch -- flip it."

Thank y'all for the help you've proffered over the years, and my apologies for sometimes playing the dunder head.

>>And I could probably find or devise some regulatory mechanism for explaining how each is used if I were dealing with English.

This is dubious...
This is all more or less set :
The meaning of the preposition is (or was) related to the meaning of the verb, but now, the only thing one can really rely on is one's experience (or knowledge of the language).


see :
to rely ON (=sur) (French : se fier À (=at))

This is no less strange than: fear=man=homme

quote:

The simplest of explanations may baffle the neophyte when what is second nature to the native is assumed to be obvious.

This native speaker usually can't help you with a reason, because I don't reason about why something is said. I just know at gut level. A more advanced learner will always be more help if there is an explanation for an idiom.

Me thinks (It thinks to me) I have it.