I've been listening to the Buntús Cainte tapes for several months (only up to lesson #16 though!). I've noticed some things that I'd like to run by some more knowledgable people:
1) In lesson #8, the sentence "An bhfuil aon rud sa bhus?" is said verbally without the "An" at the beginning.
2) Also in lesson #8, the word "daoibh" sounds like the beginning letter is being pronounced as "dh" or "gh" would be pronounced in the middle of a word.
3) In lesson #9, "ag an doras", "ag an tine", etc., sounds like the "n" in "an" isn't being pronounced. This is also true in lesson #13, i.e., "ar an tsráid"
4) In lesson #14, "ag teacht", "ag damhsa", "ag caint", and "ag foghlaim", it sounds like the "g" in "ag" isn't being pronounced.
Am I just not hearing what is there, or is this just the way the common speech is, or are there actually pronunciation rules that are driving this?

1) This is done quite often. I say "I shoulda done it" instead of "I should have done it". It's very natural to strip away the "An" from "An bhfuil" because it's still entirely intelligible -- I do it myself.

2) You're hearing "dhaoibh". You'll see prepositions all over the place that've been séimhiú'ed, I think it's dialectal, as opposed to grammatical.

3) Again this is just the quickly spoken word, just another example of "shuda".

4) "shuda" again

So, to actually pronounce the "an", the "n" in "an", or the "g" in "ag" would be technically ok? In other words, it's correct, but in reality, people just talk the other way?
Also, about "daoibh", I thought the "dh" at the beginning of a word, when the vowel was long, should be pronounced in the throaty "dh" or "gh" sound and that the "y" sound was for the short vowel. Or is this one of the exceptions? (It sounds like he's saying it as "y" to me, but I certainly could be missing something.)

Bean rua,
in buntús cainte, they are not particularly gutteral -'gh' sounded more like /g/ at the beginning, at least to my ears. Percieving differences just takes time and practice.

A Bhean Rua,

Yes, you can (and I do) pronounce the "g" in "ag". It's like "and" in English: the only time we pronounce the "d" is when we're emphasizing the word, otherwise we slur our words for quicker (you might even say "more efficient") speech.

"So, to actually pronounce the "an", the "n" in "an", or the "g" in "ag" would be technically ok? In other words, it's correct, but in reality, people just talk the other way?"

Exactly. It sounds a bit stilted and unnatural, but it isn't wrong and you will certainly be understood.

One other question:
About "daoibh" in lesson #8: it sounds to me like he's saying the beginning "d" as "y". Am I mishearing it?

As long as I'm asking questions, here's another: when I've looked in my two Irish dictionaries for the Irish equivalent of "granny", it says "mamó". I have a CD that a teacher of an Irish class burned for us, and one of the songs on it is "Sí Do Mhamói". My question is, what is the meaning of the "i" at the end of "Mhamói"?

Bean_Rua,
here is my guess:

'daoibh' in IPA is /di:v'/ (or I guess even /di:@v'/ too).

Perhaps on analogy with 'Dia dhuit', he is using the form 'Dia dhaoibh' but in the form of Dia /ji:v'/ where the broad /d/ has been lenited but under influence of the long proceeding /i/ is realised as slender, that is /j/. (Like a sort of 'Y' in English, as you said).

In the copies we both have, it is written 'Dia daoibh'.

This is an interesting example of the broad and slender rule apparently breaking down. Perhaps those who are knowledgabe in the langue can highlight more information on this. I would bet it occurs in speech more often.

I've been taught that you're actually not supposed to pronounce the g in ag before consonants in verbal nouns, Bean R, So you would hear the g in ag ól, but for ag rith, you hear just a rith. Of course everyone will understand. It's hard to remember to leave out the 'g' later if you start pronouncing it when you're first learning. Buntus Rocks, doesn't it, though? Do you have the Buntus CDs?

A Chailindoll
Yes, I like Buntús Cainte very much; it's really helped me alot. Slowly I'm understanding more and more and being able to say more and more.
I don't have the CDs, however, which is really a bummer because I always listened to the tapes in my car. I've just bought a new car that doesn't have a cassette deck, so now I can no longer do that...
Anyone with the CDs like to burn me a copy?? :D

Sí do Mhamó í is what it should be - "She is your grandmother".

Although if I remember the song, what it is implying is - don't marry that old woman for her money - she is old enough to be your grandmother.


There is a (slightly defective) text here with a translation
http://www.hothouseflowers.com/home.asp?s=music&p=sidomhamoilyrics

(Message edited by aonghus on April 29, 2005)

A Aonghus

The listing of the songs that I have that the teacher made had the "í" as part of "mhamó", so I didn't understand. Your explanation is great!
Go raibh maith agat!

As I understand it, broad lenited 'd' as in dhaoibh is a sound unlike any in english. It's in the very back of the throat produced as such. Bring your tongue to the roof of the back of your mouth, (glottal?) like you're going to produce a broad 'g' - except your tongue doesn't exactly touch the roof of your throat. Now vocalize.
Often, to me, on the tapes it sounds as if they are saying "Dia duit." as -- Jee wit'. The explanation is simple. It's the clarity of the tape.
Broad lenited 'g' (gha) at the beginning of a word is pronounced similarly.

Maidhc.

Maidhc,
I understand that broad 'dh' in Irish, when referencing the velar fricative in question, is nothing like the dental 'd' of English. I was simply agreeing with Bean Rua that he says something like /d'i@ ji:v'/ when it is written as 'Dia daoibh' [d'i@ di:v'] within the lesson in question.

With lention one would expect the voiced velar fricative in that initial position, but he does not enunciate as such. He clearly uses a slender consonant. Clarity is not an issue, as there is not enough background noise, or tape waw to distory what he is saying (due to the use of CD). If you have the series, go check it out.

The 'do' prounoun does not seem from my searching about to have its prepositonal forms lenited consistantly in a very clear form. A quick google (I know -not very thorough) shows up mostly older texts as having them lenited. Perhaps it is not done so much in the modern langue.

That was why I hoped someone who is fluent in the current tongue would shed light on the issue.

dom/dhom;
duit/dhuit;
dó/dhó;
di/dhi;
dúinn/dhúinn;
daoibh/dhaoibh;
dóibh/dhóibh

http://www2.unil.ch/ling/english/phonetique/api32-eng.html
(gives palletograms)

Here you go, Aonghus,

I read it as "she is your granny, the hag with the money," but the prospect of marrying one's own grandmother outside of Western NC seems a bit far-fetched. Hence the inferred "she's old enough to be your grandmother" (?) or is it emphatically stated elsewhere?

'Si/ do mhamo/ i/, 'si/ do mhamo/ i/
'si/ do mhamo/ i/, 'si/ cailleach an airgid
'si/ do mhamo/ i/, o/ Bhaile Iorrais Mho/ir i/
Chuirfeadh si/ co/isti/ ar bho/ithre Chois Fharraige

Da/ bhfeicfea/ an 'steam' 'ghabha/il siar To/in Ui/ Loing
'S na rothai/ 'ghabha/il timpeall siar o/ na ceathru/nai/
Chaithfeadh si/ 'n stiu/ir naoi n-uair ar a cu/l
'S ni/ choinneodh si/ siu/l le cailleach an airgid.



Measann tu/ 'bpo/sfa' Measann tu/ 'bpo/sfa'
Measann tu/ 'bpo/sfa' cailleach an airgid
Ta/'s a/m nach 'bpo/sfa', ta/'s a'm nach bpo/sfa'
Mar ta/ si/ ro/-o/g is d'o/lfadh si/'n t-airgead



'S gairid go bpo/sfa', 'S gairid go bpo/sfa',
'S gairid go bpo/sfa', beirt ar a' mbaile seo
'S gairid go bpo/sfa', 'S gairid go bpo/sfa',
Sea/n She/amais Mho/ir is Maire/ad Ni/ Chathasaigh.

Jax,
I forgot to mention that I'm studying from "Learning Irish" - 1998 printing. According to Ó Siadhail, the preposition 'do' is pronounced with lenition in all of its personal forms. Dhom, dhuit, dhó, etc....
That's at least in the Cois Fharraige dialect.

-Maidhc.

I think any attempt to make it sensible will fail. It is not stated anywhere that she is old. In fact, in the third verse it says she is too young.

I think there is a lot of mocking somebody involved, but I don't know the history of the song.

di@ j:v’ for Dia daoibh

Maybe some form of sandhi is ag obair.

Sandhi: The effect which a sound in one word can have on another sound in an adjacent or neighbouring word belongs to ‘sandhi’ or the phonetics of a sentence (p. 57).
The Irish of West Muskerry –Briain Ó Cuív

Cases of l, n, d, t where there is no apparent lenition:
‘an chéad dhuine’ becomes ‘an chéad duine’ /@N x’e:d din’@/ and might be interpreted as secondary sandhi; here ‘dh’ is treated as ‘d’ (p.114).
Modern Irish -Mícheál Ó Siadhail

Assimilation Sandhi: involving the substitution of one phoneme for another (p.62).
Sandhi may affect one or more of the bases classification of a consonant phoneme…and the degree of palatalisation or velarisation of such a phoneme (p.65).
The Irish of Tourmakeady –Sean de Búrca

Sandhi: …the replacement of a velar by a palatal under the influence of a following palatal or front vowel…(p. 47).
The Irish of Cois Fharriage –Tomás de Bhaldraithe

Perhaps sandhi, or something similar is been used by the speaker on the Buntús Cainte lesson. Or perhaps it was an aberration.

There are no examples in the texts I could find of the diphthong /i@/ in word ending position causing either broad ‘dh’ or /d/ to become slender, turning ‘dh’ as in the above case to /j/.

The rule would be something like a ‘vowel affecting consonant sandhi’ where a word ending with an unstressed vowel or diphthong causes the proceeding broad consonant at the beginning of the next word to palatalise. (Given lenition was involved, one might say that contrast quality is primary here, with mutation not seeming to make any difference).

If course, reasoning from example proves nothing. I think people can safely get back to learning and proceed around this míon-pothole.