a chairde:

tried to cancel first post unsuccesfully. apologies. see next post.

dc

(Message edited by dancas1 on February 22, 2005)

a chairde:

Slightly long winded question...on pronunciation in general and slender D in particular, typed hurriedly, so please forgive typos, etc., but can someone explain the differences in pronunciation in irish dialects based on class, as well as region? And in particular the pronunciation of the slender D?

For instance, as a kid from a working class Brooklyn Irish family in the late 1940s and 1950s, I grew up saying "witcha" instead of "with you;" wit' instead of "with;" "cauteh" instead of "quarter," waahdah instead of water, etc. of course, with help from radio, TV, and teachers I learned to use proper pronunciation: "with you," etc. but it took practice. And despite teaching college for more than twenty years, I still have huge problems with words like coffee and water and washing, and many udder (other) woids (words) often breaking up my students in class. Haha. Jokes on "da teach."

Then again, when myself and my extended family relax and among friends I/we sometimes use these old pronunciations such as "Goil" for "girl" and "erl" for oil on purpose. And erffect. My Grandmother was called "De Ol' Goil" by my grandfather, and we still use it fondly when speaking of "Nanny." We learned to deal with the "oi" dipthong in Brooklyn and Queens' schools while reciting "What kind of noise annoys an oyster? A noisy noise annoys an oyster."

When we (I) use these old pronunciations and the old dialect woids (words) like snazzy, doozer, joint, samollions, moolah, etc. on purpose among one another it is almost as if we our honoring the old East River NY breac-Ghaeltacht dialects that Eugene O'Neill captured so well in Pulitzer Prize (and Nobel) winning plays such as Anna Christy, Hairy Ape, The Iceman Cometh, Glencairn Cycle and others.

In my own wingnut circuitious way, what I am saying is that does Irish break along these same class and educational lines - as well as region?

Does school taught Irish -even in the Gaeltacht - differ from the more demotic speech of say a working class Irish speaking family or even Irish speaking Travellers?

And then back to slender "d".

Does this fricative and its appearance as a Dj or even J sound break along class lines as well as regional?

I also notice in my study of Manx that most words from irish that begin with a slender D are represented by an English J. Such as de/irc as Jeeirc (alms, chairty etc), God as Jay, etc.

Sorry for going on a bit. I guess the question is does irish pronunciation break along class lines as well as region.

sorrt for sloppy typing, and long windedness, I am off to teach a class with my swell accent. Though I nevuh know what might come burstin out of mo chab.

Go raibh maith agat

Danny Cassidy

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DC

In Donegal, slender d is now pronounced as the english j by everybody except some older people who've retained the old pronounciation: palatalized d quite as in english "dew".
And that's what is taught in Donegal schools because teachers are not old enough to use the old pronounciation.

Lughaidh, go raibh maith agat; my father's family were Irish speakers from Donegal, as were many from North Brooklyn: Greenpoint, North Williamsburgh, and old "Irishtown," along the docks. Thanks again for the simple answer to longwinded question. Dia Uas, the issue of class and dialect is a complex one, though. Especially when we factor in the various "cants" (stone masons, carnival/circus, grifters etc.)that have survived to some extent in US as so-called "underworld" slang or jargons.