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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 18, 2005 » Dialect, accent, slang, colloquialisms « Previous Next »

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 423
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hmm...

Take for instance the chunks of Dublin that say:

I done it.
I seen it.

Is this a dialect? Or what would you call it?

--

Anyway, one thing I'm particularly interested in is the following:

ceannaigh

In some "dialects" they pronounce it ending with an "ig" sound, but in others they pronounce it ending with an "í" sound. Now... what I'm wondering is... if some-one is learning Irish and they're told that it's pronounced as it's spelt, ie. with an "ig", then ofcourse at the start they'll pronounce it with the "ig" -- but I wonder if it's utlimately their accent which will over time determine whether they pronounce it with an "ig" or an "í". My own Irish teacher always pronounced the "ig", but overtime I've found myself pronouncing:

ceannaigh
na héireannaigh

as:

ceannaí
na héireannaí

So is alternate pronounciation governed by dialect or by accent...

In the beginning I sort-of rejected the whole idea of dialects, thinking that it was all just based on accent, but now I'm starting to come around...

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on February 11, 2005)

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>I done it.
>I seen it.

That is used in Ulster as well. I didn't know Dubliners say that as well.

>Is this a dialect? Or what would you call it?

Yeah it's dialect. The Dublin variant of English.

--

>Anyway, one thing I'm particularly interested >in is the following:

>ceannaigh

>In some "dialects"

why have u written " " there? They're definitely dialects. A dialect is the local form of a language, and a language is a group of dialects.

>they pronounce it ending with an "ig" sound,

Munster Irish: Kerry, West Cork, Co. Waterford...

>but in others they pronounce it ending with an "í" sound.

Ulster. I think that in Connemara they'd say "ceanna" with a "uh" sound when you get a -(a)idh or -(a)igh at the end of a word.

>Now... what I'm wondering is... if some-one is learning Irish and they're told that it's pronounced as it's spelt, ie. with an "ig",

If you pronounce it as it is spelled you pronounce ceannaí, because slender gh normally is a "y" sound, not g.

>then ofcourse at the start they'll pronounce it with the "ig" -- but I wonder if it's utlimately their accent which will over time determine whether they pronounce it with an "ig" or an "í".

I'd say it's the dialect that determines it. Someone from Munster will pronounce -ig...

>My own Irish teacher always pronounced the "ig", but overtime I've found myself pronouncing:

>ceannaigh
>na héireannaigh

>as:

>ceannaí
>na héireannaí

>So is alternate pronounciation governed by >dialect or by accent...

You are mixing up two dialects then :)

>In the beginning I sort-of rejected the whole idea of dialects, thinking that it was all just based on accent, but now I'm starting to come around...

Dialects have much more difference than just accent. Conjugation, syntax, declension, vocabulary etc would all have differences.

For example:
"I see"is :
tchíom in Ulster
feicim in Connemara
cím in Munster

Three different forms. Accent is just a matter or pronounciation, and you see that in such cases, the words are completely different, not a different pronounciation of the same word.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 11:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

DIALECT
Main Entry: di·a·lect
Pronunciation: 'dI-&-"lekt
Function: noun
Usage: often attributive
Etymology: Middle French dialecte, from Latin dialectus, from Greek dialektos conversation, dialect, from dialegesthai to converse
1 a : a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, grammar, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language
b : one of two or more cognate languages
c : a variety of a language used by the members of a group
d : a variety of language whose identity is fixed by a factor other than geography (as social class)



ACCENT
1 : a distinctive manner of expression: as
a : an individual's distinctive or characteristic inflection, tone, or choice of words -- usually used in plural
b : a way of speaking typical of a particular group of people and especially of the natives or residents of a region

2 : an articulative effort giving prominence to one syllable over adjacent syllables; also : the prominence thus given a syllable

3 : rhythmically significant stress on the syllables of a verse usually at regular intervals

etc

(from http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary)

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Dáithí
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Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There was a program on Cable TV recently called "Do You Speak American," and the program host, along with experts he interviewed, kept referring to the dialects in America. I always thought that we here in the States spoke with different accents. But, can we consider the variations in America as dialects? If so, why aren't there books and tapes and CD's that teach people how to learn the different dialects in America? I think it would be funny and also very confusing to do so, but I wonder if there are any parallels to Irish-Language courses that teach a particular dialect. The opposite approach is Turas Teanga, which presents the learner with all three major Irish dialects at once, and you get the impression you're learning Irish, and not some particular dialect.

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Robin
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Username: Robin

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I have been wondering how much the languages of immigrants has affected the development of accents in the U.S.. For example, Minnesota had a large influx of Scandanavians and Germans, versus the Irish of Boston and the Scots-Irish of the South.

And just what is the difference between dialect and accent anyway? :-)

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 641
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Minnesota had a large influx of Scandanavians

Very true, I know places where every second person has a Swedish surname and places where almost everyone has a Finnish surname. I've never detected any thrace of either Swedish or Finnish in their accent, though. Except for the oldest ones, they are almost always completely monolingual speakers of English.

In Canada there is a Danish area in which the people still speak Danish as the community language despite having been in Canada for about 150 years!

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Canuck
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Username: Canuck

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Interesting! Do you know where in Canada that is? I know of some Icelandic speaking areas in Manitoba (notably Gimli). As well, there are many Ukranian speaking areas in Saskatchewan and Alberta. Not to take a detour, but I love how remarkably powerful sounding the icelandic language is. Maybe I'll learn that once I've mastered Irish. =)

Has anyone finished the Turas Teanga course? What did you think of it?

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Mack
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Posted From: 12.75.202.58
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I done it. I seen it. I would call this bad grammar rather than dialect.It's used throughout the US by speakers of every ethnicity and not just by poorly educated people. Among some, it's a way of showing that you're one of the guys, not a snob, especially by the young.

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chara a Canuck,

I've been using the Tura Teanga course on a daily basis, although it'll probably take me many more months to fully grasp the course, but I find it very enjoyable. There's the book, the audio CD's and then there's also the DVDs. I consider myself an lower-level intermediate student, which means I can begin to grasp the Turas Teanga course, which is designed for folks who have studied Gaeigle before. In other words, I don't think it would be too beneficial for a total beginner.

The most interesting aspect of the course, I find, is there's no emphasis on a particular dialect. The differences in the dialects are taught as various ways of saying something. For example, you'll learn that there are three ways to say "how are you." "Cad é mar tá tú," Conas tá tú," and Cé chaoi bhfuil tú." So, if you're above the level of an absolute beginner, you shouldn't have any trouble comprehending that it's ok to say things differently, rather than the mentality of "there are three dialects" and you better pick one as your favorite or else you'll be doomed to eternal confusion."

Personally (and I mean just me personally) I prefer to see Irish as a language that has different ways of saying the same thing rather than having three dialects. Of course, I'm no expert in languages and I'm sure my approach violates international language laws, but in the long run I want to be familiar with as much of the Irish language and its variations as possible.

On a final note, we're using Turas Teanga during our interim Daltai classes here in New Joisey (Joisey is a dialectical form of Jersey) and everybody just seems to love the course. It's very up-to-date, and the exposure to Irish culture and the excellent level of teaching makes for a rewarding experience.

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Mack
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Posted From: 12.75.202.58
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

If the variations in American speech are called dialects, the number is mind-boggling. The people of upstate New York have several variations and don't speak the same as the people in NYC and then you go to Long Island, New Jersey and Connecticut. That's just the tri-state area and there's 47 other states. And then there's the folks who retain some of the speech patterns of their ethnicity. German-Americans. Irish-Americans, Chinese-Americans retain ethic imprints for several generations.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 87
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

>But, can we consider the variations in America as dialects?

you can, if the differences between these variations concern more than only pronounciation. I dunno American dialects so I can’t say anything about them. For Irish, it is obvious that they are dialects, because pronounciation, syntax, morphology and vocabulary change according to the place you are.

>And just what is the difference between dialect and accent anyway? :-)

Read the articles i’ve pasted above...


>I done it. I seen it. I would call this bad grammar rather than dialect.

If it is bad grammar, then you mean that everything that is said in English and that doesn’t exist in BBC English is bad grammar. And anyway, that standard BBC English has bad grammar when compared to 18th century English, which has bad grammar when compared to Chaucer’s English etc. Languages change... I seen and I done are just an evolution of speech. Maybe in 50 or 100 years, "I done" and "I seen will be accepted as correct forms, and "I did" "I saw" will be considered as "obsolet forms" or at least "literary forms".
I think that once, "he does" was considered as wrong, because the right form was "he doth", and "you do" said to children was wrong because you had to say "thou" to children and people you know well, and you had to say "thou dost" (or something like that, I don’t remember is that is the right spelling). The English plurals with -s are a borrowing from Middle French: old English plurals were mostly with -en (as in German). So once, saying plurals with -s instead of -en was a mistake. See what I mean? The "mistakes" or "simplifications" that are done by native speakers make the language change gradually. That’s why I say "I done and I seen" aren’t really mistakes.

(Message edited by Lughaidh on February 11, 2005)

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Dearg
Member
Username: Dearg

Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

There are differences in regional US English other than just pronunciation. They seem to be minor relative to, say, Irish. But they exist.

In Texas they combine "you" and "all" to make y'all.

In Minnesota, they drop the object after "with", as in "I'm going outside; you comin' with?"

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 642
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

love how remarkably powerful sounding the icelandic language is

Thank you, it's nice to hear you like it. The archaic dialect my grandparents speak is extremely close to Icelandic - so much so that speakers of standard Swedish cannot understand it. When I bought a course in Icelandic I quickly found that about 50% of the words were the same as in Swedish, of the remaining 50% I already knew most of it because my grandparents and their neighbours all use them. The same goes for much of the pronunciation and the grammar - my grandmother still conjugates many nouns in the dative case although it officially disappeared from Swedish more than 500 years ago :-) When we were younger, my friends and I all read through the Icelandic sagas, so the Icelandic language is very close to my heart. In some ways it feels almost as my native language. Have you heard Faeroese? It's even more powerful, its like is not to be found...

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Mack
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 12.75.202.58
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

People who use "I seen" and "I done" are considered to be ill-spoken and uneducated. Perhaps it may evolve into correct speech some day but at present it is incorrect. BBC English is hardly the standard here in the US, our English is less formal in many ways but such speech would be a drawback in business, In American films, you will not hear the handsome lover, the captain of industry, the brave hero or any one of the "star" roles use that speech. It will be used to show a speaker of less intelligence or lower status,

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Tom
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Posted From: 62.17.244.107
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

As reguards ig and aigh, in surname format names such as O' Carthaigh is pronounced as O' KAURHIG in Offaly and Munster, but as O' KAURTHEE in Longford and Ulster.

Connacht Gaelic is o' KORHEE.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 91
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

o Karhee in Ulster.

>Perhaps it may evolve into correct speech some day but at present it is incorrect.

Incorrect in regard to Standard grammar, but for linguists, ie. in an objective point of view it is correct.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 92
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Jonas, ba mhian liom ríomhphost a scríobh chugat (le ceastracha 'chur ort fá dtaobh dár bhreac tú thuas fá chanúint do mháthara móire). Bheirim duit cionn de mo chuid seoltaí-se anseo, scríobh thusa chugam agus mar sin gheobhaidh mé do sheoladh 's ní gá duit do chionnsa a scríobh anseo:

gaelbhach
@
minitel
.net

Grma roimhe ré!

(Message edited by Lughaidh on February 11, 2005)

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 105
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

To throw another monkey wrench into this discussion, consider the terms "regionalism" and "local color" and whether they are relevant to the question of dialect. Many of the examples of differences in American English can be traced to specific regions of the country. With the technology that has produced the mass media, many of these differences are disappearing. I live in the metropolitan Atlanta area, and it seems that half the persons I encounter sound like they're from the mid-west.

By contrast, 100 miles north of here in a tiny mountain area in Western North Carolina called Junaluska (unincorporated) the people speak a version of English that no foreign exchange student could hope to recognize.

Jes set to pondrin that un. Kin aiskye de cem ub ar?

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Dáithí
Member
Username: Dáithí

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Here's a copy of an e-mail I got today about the "New Joisey" edition of Windows. I thought I would share it on the forum as an example of an American dialect. I "unnnerstan" it cause I'm from Joisey!

Subject: Windows XP New Joisey Edition


Dear Consumas:
It has come ta our attention dat a cupola copies udda Windows XP New
Joisey Edition may have been shipped outsida Joisey. If youse got one
a dese, you may need some help unnerstanin da commands.
Da Joisey edition may be recognized by da unique openin' screen. It reads:
Windas XP", wit a background pitcha a Hoboken. When youse start da program, instead a da usual hary stringy like music, you hear a little
Springsteen. It's also shipped wit a Sopranos screen sava.
Please also note:

My Computer is called "My Friggin' Computa"
The Inbox is referred to as "Da Trunk"
Deleted items are referred to as "Wacked", "Erased" or "Rubbed Out"
Control Panel is known as "Da Bosses"
Performing an "illegal operation" is known as "Enhancin'
da Family Business" and will actually maximize da program instead a shuttin' it down
Hard Drive is referred to as "Da Turnpike on Da Way to Da Shore"
Instead of an error message, "You Ain't Gonna Friggin' Believe Dis'"pops up.
Changes in Terminology in Da Joisey Edition:
OK . . . . Sure ting
Cancel . . . . Fugetaboutit
Reset . . . . Start ova
Yes . . . . Yeah
No . . . . Nah
Find . . . . Put a Contract Out On
Browse . . . . Get a Looksee
Back . . . . U-Toin
Help . . . . Get Your Own Friggin' Ansa
Stop . . . . Knock it Off
Start . . . . Move it
Settings . . . . Here's da Rules
We regret any inconvenience it may have caused if you mistakenly got a copy of the Joisey Edition (not).
You may return it to Microsoft for a replacement version.
You gotta problem wit dat?

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 130
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

cheannaig / cheanna / cheannaí < cheannaigh
çæNig´ / çæNэ / çæNi: < çæNэγ´

cheanna sé / cheanna sé / cheanna sé < cheanna sé
çæNэ ∫e: / çæNэ ∫e: / çæNэ ∫e: < çæNэ ∫e:

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 07:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Pheadair, why did u tape that? I don't see the link between that and what has been written before.

For Ulster the pronounciations would be:

çaNi - with a subject other than a personal pronoun or seo, sin, siúd

çaNэ ∫a - he bought

I don't think there are double n's in Munster...

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Dearg
Member
Username: Dearg

Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dáithí, that's pretty hysterical to a former Lon-Gislander like myself.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 132
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 03:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Pheadair, why did u tape that?

Tape?

I don't see the link between that and what has been written before.

http://www.daltai.com/cgi-sys/cgiwrap/daltai/discus/show.pl?tpc=20&post=20302#PO ST20302

For Ulster...çaNэ ∫a

Sin nó çæNэ ∫ε (ins an iar-dheisceart, ar a laghad), an eadh?

I don't think there are double n's in Munster...

They don't make the distinction, but they use the dental, not the alveolar.

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 97
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ceart go leor! But for N in Munster, you would always use the capital N then and never the small one... in phonology it's better to use the small one and say it's alveolar, than to always use a capital N...

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 106
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I "unnnerstan" it cause I'm from Joisey!

An from Nort Joisey as well.

Having been brought up in Syout Jersey jus outsida Philly, I feel compelled to note that not all Garden Staters sound loike dat. Summa us talk good like "heow neow breown ceow."

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Ulster English > hoy, noy, broyn, kie.

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 429
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 04:04 am:   Edit Post Print Post

quote:

I done it. I seen it. I would call this bad grammar rather than dialect.It's used throughout the US by speakers of every ethnicity and not just by poorly educated people. Among some, it's a way of showing that you're one of the guys, not a snob, especially by the young.



Saying it's simply bad grammar is just a cop-out. These people are fluent, they're not 2 years olds, so there is no such thing as bad grammar.

quote:

People who use "I seen" and "I done" are considered to be ill-spoken and uneducated.



Unfortunately this is true. I say "unfortunately" because I know quite a few intelligent and intellectual people who speak like that simply because that's how the people around them spoke as they were a baby and then as a child -- it's their dialect. There's nothing wrong with how they speak, it's simply unfortunate that so many naively view it as "bad grammar".

quote:

Perhaps it may evolve into correct speech some day but at present it is incorrect.



"incorrect"; who's to say? Speech that comes out of a native fluent speaker's mouth is by definition correct, is it not?

quote:

BBC English is hardly the standard here in the US, our English is less formal in many ways



I don't see how a language can be "formal"? What you might see as formal is just how they speak naturally. For instance, I don't even think about whether I'm going to say "he" or "him", my subconscious just decides that for me, and that's how it's like with "who" Vs "whom" for some English speakers, while the rest just use "who".

quote:

but such speech would be a drawback in business, In American films, you will not hear the handsome lover, the captain of industry, the brave hero or any one of the "star" roles use that speech. It will be used to show a speaker of less intelligence or lower status



Are you talking about BBC speach here, or "I done it", "I seen it"?

(Message edited by Fear_na_mBróg on February 14, 2005)

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 430
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 04:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just for perspective, I myself live in Dublin; you'll hear me say:

I saw it
I did it

I woulda done it
I woulda seen it


though you'll find a large amount of people in my area say:

I seen it
I done it

and I'm consciously aware when they say that. I think schools make these people seem intellectually inferior my simply labelling their speech "grammatically incorrect", when in fact the schools are run by a pack of prentenious fools who can't just own up to the fact that they don't speak the English of the English royal family.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.8
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"labelling their speech 'grammatically incorrect'...pack of prentenious fools..."
-Fear na mBróg

Yes, one notices in Dublin in particular that a bugbear surrounding seen/saw is very much acute (a bourgeois foible one might surmise?)

Strange tho, they should be so hung up at particular 'sites' in the langue, while their general competency is not always much to write home about.

With fine accents they may speak, (RP and all that), but so much jazz. Check their written tongue, their range of vocabulary, and their ability to express ideas thru langue. Enunciation: check. Accent: check. Creativity of product: nil.

In fact I'd say they are on a very odd path. With Northern and Southern Hiberno English, one can see idioms been coined every year; nay, some conversations provide the space to birth new words. Just yesterday I heard the doubled expression 'langer langer' used to denote a particular type of disreputable person.

Much of the current switch to English accents is acommpanied by a staid, static and dogmatic sense of speech that is been 'de-idiomised' and can just about create new phrases ('Celtic Tiger', 'Peace Dividend') but lacks the easy fluency to mint more fundamental coinage.

Diametrically, we face the opposite problem with Irish where so many calques are jumping into the langue that in 100 years Irish speakers may not be able to read 20th century Gaelic due the idioms and terms of reference having changed so markedly due to the changes in where most speakers live (non gaeltachtaí).

Two faces of the same coin one might say.

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.8
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

In fact, aon addendum amháin,

one of the beauties of Irish, at least traditionally, is the lack of 'vague metaphors' -"I am growing (spiritually/creatively etc)", "We are maturing as a nation"..."There is development going on".

It should be clear how much, how many, when, where, and what is been talked about. How much are you growing? 2 inches? Taller or wider? What is 'spiritual growth' anyway?

I hope Irish can continue to be less prey to such vagueries, and 'fás' and her ilk remain single to marriages with English semantic gentlemen.

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Pádraig
Member
Username: Pádraig

Post Number: 108
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Creidim go mairfidh an Ghaedhilg ach ní thuigfidh mise í.

I found myself in the middle of a website (can't recall how I got there) debating the advantages of standardized vs. dialect forms of Irish, and when I encoundered the above statement, I started wondering if there might be some strong arguments against the standardization since historically (particularly in literature) the culture has been preserved in dialects.

I think there's a serious dilemma here. It seems the true culture of Ireland includes the many factions (and disagreements) within the population which will be lost if ever everyone (or even a majority) reaches a point of agreement.

(Message edited by pádraig on February 14, 2005)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí
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Posted From: 193.1.100.105
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Labhair í agus mairfidh sí.

Scríobh í agus mairfidh sí.

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Mack
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Posted From: 12.75.181.2
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

My point in calling it simply bad grammar was that Lughaidh called it Dublin dialect. Simce it is heard all over the US that seemed strange to me. Dublin dialect to me is words and expressions used just by the Dubliners, e.g, bowsies,the jacks, the mot, etc.

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'dj@ks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.8
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"I found myself in the middle of a website (can't recall how I got there) debating the advantages of standardized vs. dialect forms of Irish..."
-Pádraig

This sounds similar:
http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~oduibhin/mcq/ulsterirish.htm
even if not the same one.

"Labhair í agus mairfidh sí.

Scríobh í agus mairfidh sí."
-Seosamh Mac Muirí

I agree.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 137
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

The question could be summed up this way: should the spelling of "modern medicine" be standardized as "modn metsn" because some people pronounce it that way?

(Message edited by Peadar Ó Gríofa on February 14, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Daisy
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Posted From: 12.75.181.2
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Uv kawss

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Spelling is a different problem...

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 138
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 14, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Spelling is a different problem...

Different from what? If English were "standardized" the way Irish has been "standardized," we might all be expected to write "modn metsn" and pronounce it "modn metsn." Anyone who insisted on clinging to some obscure, archaic dialect — in which "modern medicine" was still written and pronounced with an "r" before the "n" in "modern" and with a voiced "d" in the middle of each word — would be told, "Oh, come off it! That debate was settled long ago! Why keep bringing up that old red herring?"

The "standard" now imposed all over Ireland tells learners and native speakers that "cruaidh" [kruэj]/[kruэg'] and "tráigh" [tra:j]/[trα:g'] are nonstandard and thus have to be replaced by "crua" [kruэ] and "trá" [tra:]/[trα:] because speakers of Galway Irish pronounce them that way; and that "a bhíos" (not to mention "a bhíonns") and "a thiocfas" are taobh amuigh den chaighdeán oifigiúil and are thus to be avoided and purged from anything intended for publication, because speakers of Munster Irish say "a bhíonn" and "a thiocfaidh," and so on and so on...

(Message edited by admin on February 15, 2005)

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 434
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 03:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Let them stipulate what they want in any "standard", it's not going to alter people's speech; kids are told in school that "I seen it" is wrong and they're regularly corrected, but that doesn't make them change how they speak. The one sole reason why I myself say "I saw it" instead of "I seen it" is because that's how people around me spoke when I was learning the language as a baby.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 934
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 04:30 am:   Edit Post Print Post

There is a difference between a written standard and a spoken one.

You will hear all the forms Peadar claims are "banned" regularly on Radio na Gaeltachta;

You will also see them printed in novels, short stories, poetry, in fact in anything written other than straight factual reports.

It's some years since I was at school, so I can't answer for whether some teachers are ruling with an iron rod of cáighdéan or not: but I have personally never come across the attitude that Peadar describes. I would regard it as a sign of a poor teacher if they were unaware of dialects.

The reason some of the smaller dialects are dying out ius quite different, and unrelated to the standard. Those areas are being depopulated, and those left there are increasingly choosing to speak english.

I find it hard to believe that any proficient speaker in any dialect would have any great difficulty in understanding something written in another dialect.

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Peadar_Ó_gríofa
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Username: Peadar_Ó_gríofa

Post Number: 142
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"Cora Cainte as Tír Chonaill" An dara heagrán, 1992:

"Is é mo bharúil go bhfaighfear sin sa leabhar seo."

("Go bhfuighfear" would never do, because the Standard calls for the Munster spelling — and accordingly the Munster pronunciation must be the "right" one.)

"Gheofaí a oiread den chineál sin cor cainte i mbaile amháin i dTír Chonaill agus nach gcoinneodh cúig leabhar den tsórt iad."

(We can't go writing "nach gcoinneochadh" now, can we?)
_____

"Dia dhaoibh, agus vur gcéad fáilte huig Barrscéalta"

(We mustn't say "mur gcéad fáilte"; why would anyone want to say "mur" when everybody knows it's spelled "bhur," and "bh" is vee?)
__________

Níl a fhios agam cé a scríobh an méid seo leanas, i gcomhrá a bhí ann dhá bhliain is cupla mí ó shin:

"Cé go bhfuil togha na Gaeilge ag daoine in Iorras go fóill tá Gaeilge na scoile ag leathadh -- agus an fhoghraíocht a ghabhann léi.

D'iarras ar pháiste as ceann de na bailte sin sliocht gearr a léamh os ard dom uair, páiste a raibh spréacharnaigh as gach siolla dár labhair sí féin agus í ag caint go nádúrtha, ach nuair a thosaigh sí ag léamh níor tháinig uaithi ach Gaeilge le foghraíocht an Bhéarla.

Ní chreidfinn é murach gur tharla sé. Ní fhaca sí ceangal ar bith idir an focal scríofa agus a cuid cainte féin. Ná níor múineadh di muinín a bheith aici as a canúint fein agus bród a bheith uirthi dá réir."
__________

Tomás Ó Criomhthain, "An tOileánach" — Pádraig Ua Maoileoin, eagarthóir:

"Ceithre bliana a bhíos sular baineadh de dhiúl mé. Is mé dríodar an chrúiscín, deireadh an áil. Sin é an réasún ar fágadh chomh fada ar na cíocha mé.
Bhíos i mo pheata ina theannta sin."

It's nice that Ua Maoileoin used the spelling "is iomdha," as he explained in his foreword, but apparently it would have been some sort of a crime to publish an edition in the latter half of the twentieth century using "sarar baineadh" and "an réasún gur fágadh" and "ina theannta san."

Peadar Ó Gríofa

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 940
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 15, 2005 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Maidir le cailín Iorrais: aithris ar a muinteoir is dócha ba chúis leis an bhfoghraíocht. Ní haon rún é go bhfuil fadhb ann dóthain múinteoirí líofa a fháil.

Agus tá difear idir rud a léamh, agus labhairt go nadúrtha - feicim ag mo ghasúr fhéin é, a bhfuil léamh trí theanga acu anois (gearmáinís, gaeilge, béarla). Tógann sé scaitheamh orthu an fuaim cheart a bhaint as focail nach bhfuil léite go minic acu.

quote:

Ná níor múineadh di muinín a bheith aici as a canúint fein agus bród a bheith uirthi dá réir



Admháim le fónamh go bhfuil fadhb anseo, agus tá sin raite agam i snáth eile.

Osclaítear na coláistí ullmhúcháin athuair!

Ach ní dóigh liom go bhfuil sé fíor a rá go bhfuil an caighdéan a scaipeadh d'aon ghnó chun na canúintí a bhanú. Feictear dhom go bhfuil breis neart ag teacht sna canúintí de bharr RnaG agus TG4 - canúint (mar dhea) áth cliath ina measc!

Ní de bharr an chaighdéain atá gaeltacht Maigh Eo lag, ach de bharr easpa daonra, agus easpa fostaíochta.



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