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The Dalta Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through February 28, 2005 » Pa:rik w:rэ wa:n « Previous Next »

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Peadar__grofa
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Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

э hiэrNэ diэ Na:rw uφa:sэx эN i: i: | э lehidэ Ni:r he:d as e:r le: kĩβnэ kiN э dinэ bэ ∫in er э malэ | βi: ∫e: nэ xalэm ku:ni∫ le: γa: la: rĩβэ ∫in | Ni: xoro:xi: ribэ gэ dэ γruэg | Nuэr э'du:rt '∫'w:rti:n gэ ro dinэN er magu: э te∫i:φ э ji:nu: φi: | hanik ∫e: ŋ ku:r эnэ xrp w:rэ wi: taxt эNiэr le∫ эN unru: tilэ gi∫ Ni: aki ∫e: taxt βli: эrĩэβ e: Nax meh n sderim nsNэ sa:li: egэ

∫a:n a: ru:a:n э ∫gri:β

Peadar Grofa

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 610
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go hiontach ar fad, tabhair dinn ceann eile! T ceist agam, fach, (agus cannt eile agamsa): nlim cinnte go dtuigim i gceart an t-'' at sa theacs san agat.

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Fear_na_mbrg
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Username: Fear_na_mbrg

Post Number: 410
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 06:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Alienate everyone else, that's a great way to foster a friendly atmosphere! : P

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 898
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 07:36 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seans go mbeidh orm an stuif d a fhoghlaim fs..

A Thiarna Dia, narbh uafsach an ? a lithid ...

tim r fhalsa nos m a dhanamh...

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Peadar__grofa
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Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Print Post

1. Nl '' ann, a Jonas, ach '' ('a' agus '~' os a chionn) -- 'a' srnach.

2. Herr Schumann, dies ist fr dich. Es ist sehr freundlich. Du wirst dich gar nicht fremd fhlen (I don't speak German; I'm just having fun pretending):
http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/gaelic.html

Peadar Grofa

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Print Post

uni:∫
A Aonghuis,

Na:rw uφa:sэx эN i: i:
nrbh' uathbhsach an oidhche !
nrbh uafsach an oche !

Peadar Grofa

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 612
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

1. Nl '' ann, a Jonas, ach '' ('a' agus '~' os a chionn) -- 'a' srnach

Dar ndigh, cm anois. Mar a t a fhios agat, t "" againn as Sualainnis agus is dcha gurb sin a rasn n faca an difrocht.

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'jaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.178
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

э hiэrNэ diэ Na:rw uφa:sэx эN i: i: | э lehidэ Ni:r he:d as e:r le: kĩβnэ kiN э dinэ bэ ∫in er э malэ | βi: ∫e: nэ xalэm ku:ni∫ le: γa: la: rĩβэ ∫in | Ni: xoro:xi: ribэ gэ dэ γruэg | Nuэr э'du:rt '∫'w:rti:n gэ ro dinэN er magu: э te∫i:φ э ji:nu: φi: | hanik ∫e: ŋ ku:r эnэ xrp w:rэ wi: taxt эNiэr le∫ эN unru: tilэ gi∫ Ni: aki ∫e: taxt βli: эrĩэβ e: Nax meh n sderim nsNэ sa:li: egэ

∫a:n a: ru:a:n э ∫gri:β

Peadar,
I am intrigued and would like to know more about your new symbols and what they stand for, sound wise. What piece of text is it a phonetic form of?

Knowns
э= schwa
x
ŋ
γ

Level 1: Clear enough
N = velarised alveolar nasal [Ni:] naoi, ke:Nэ [cadna]
N=voiced palatal nasal? [эNiэr] aniar
∫ =Voiceless alveolar fricative? [∫o:l] sel
β =vta [βo:tэ]

Level 2: Needs clarification
= Voiceless palatal fricative? (IPA) or [xo:l] cheol (foclir pca). Context suggest the latter.

Level 3: Somewhat unclear
w from English or broad /bh/ as in your example or voiced velarised lip-rounded fricative or(there are others; but you know which one you meant)

Level 4 : Muddled
Φ= voicless bilabial fricative?
β what does this represent ?
j as in the English /j/ or voiced palatal fricative/ palato-velar fricative [ijiэ]

Level 5: And as for these rude boys

:

:
ĩ

Finally, what word was this pre-phoneticisation?
nsNэ

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 613
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I would guess that [nsNэ] stands for "ins na", or "sna" in the standard.

The vowels at level five are all nasalised.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 908
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:32 am:   Edit Post Print Post

GRMA as an "oche" a shoilsi dhom a Pheadair.

Ach tim r fhalsa faoi lthair dul i ngleic le cd nua.

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 109
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 07:31 am:   Edit Post Print Post

>What piece of text is it a phonetic form of?<

The beginning of "Pdhraic Mhire Bhn, n An Gol agus an Gire," by Sen Ruadhin.

x = voiceless velar fricative = broad "ch."
ŋ = velar nasal as in English "tongue."
γ = voiced velar fricative = initial broad "dh" or "gh."

N = (tense, long, unlenited) velarized DENTAL nasal [Ni:] naoi, [ke:Nэ] cadna, as opposed to the (lax, short or lenited) velarized alveolar nasal [n] in [mэ na:rэ] mo nire, [dunэ] dona.

>N= voiced palatal nasal? [э'Niэr] aniar<

Yup, as opposed to the palatalized alveolar nasal n as in [ini:n] inon.

∫ =Voiceless PALATO-alveolar fricative [∫o:l] seol

> = Voiceless palatal fricative? (IPA) or [xo:l] cheol (foclir pca). Context suggests the latter.<

They're one and the same. It's NOT [x] followed by [j], but a single, purely palatal sound, which can be prolonged as long as you can keep exhaling.

w = initial, semivocalic bh- or mh-. [э wodi:] a bhodaigh. In [э w:hir] a mhthair, both the [w] and the [a:] are nasalized.

β = voiced, velarized bilabial fricative: [э βra:hir] a bhrthair, [a:βэr] bhar; nasalized in [f:βэr] fmhar, [sβru:] samhradh, [L:β] lmh, [mэ l:βi:] mo lmha.

Φ= voiceless bilabial fricative?

Yup. As for blowing out a candle.

β what does this represent ?

The voiced, palatalized bilabial fricative: [γa: βliэn] dh bhliain, [seβir] saibhir; nasalized in [gĩβru:] geimhreadh, [mэ γa: l:β] mo dh limh, [bэ βĩnik] ba mhinic, [rĩβэ] roimhe.

j = high front semivowel, as opposed to...

γ = voiced palatal fricative / palato-velar fricative in [э γrim] a ghreim.

Yup, / : / / : / ĩ = nasalized o / / a / / i

Yup, nsNэ = ins na

Peadar Grofa

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Stephan_wilhelm
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Username: Stephan_wilhelm

Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Does Siadhail's Learning Irish contain this type of information as to the realisation of the phonemes of Irish ?
Of course, including phonetic script in manuals destined to people who learn on their own would do nothing but confuse things in most cases, but access to such information is invaluable for those acquainted with even the rudiments of phonetics.
Are you a linguist too, like Lughaidh, a Pheadair?

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 619
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes and no (to the first question, that is). Learning Irish does contain every single word in the "normal" adjusted IPA for Irish dialects. It does not make all the distinctions made in Peadar's text. On average, I would say that the symbols in Learning Irish (and most descriptions of Irish dialects) are easier to understand for laymen.

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'djaeks
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Posted From: 159.134.221.189
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Peadar,
thanks very much for the time you spent on writing out the answer. Clarity is a good thing!

The nasalisation is so often very much ignored, vowels specifically and consonants generally, so I'm glad to see it been tagged. Many of us in the West are very flat and nasal in English and it would be natural to be as nasal in Irish as allowable, consonants and vowels and all.

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 07:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

ogi∫ Ni:rβ e: ∫in э te:N tuэr эwa:n | β΄i: Nэ φi:La:in эnэ sgati: эr φud Nэ wa:Lti: le: tri: la: rĩβэ ∫in mэr βet∫iэd э teu: : warigэ | ogэs khэru: di: ba:r Na: kaxtэr oku: эn '∫an'ro:ŋ glas Nax wakэs han a:N La: 'mi:'ortu:nэx u:di: эr ba:u: Luŋ βĩtil βi: ∫e: γa: a:nt he:n hart le: kladэx | e: brahnu: wэjэ ∫dax эr Nэ tiφi: mэr βet∫e: magu: | '∫'xlagэN er э βi: Liэ le: i:∫ эgэs kum er gэ ro ∫e: xэ kri:Nэ le: solu:

Peadar Grofa

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Peadar__grofa
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Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 07:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Bh dh dhearmad ansin at ceartaithe agam anois:
__________

э hiэrNэ diэ Na:rw uφa:sэx эN i: i: | э lehidэ Ni:r he:d as e:r le: kĩβnэ kiN э dinэ bэ ∫in er э malэ | βi: ∫e: nэ xalэm ku:ni∫ le: γa: la: rĩβэ ∫in | Ni: xoro:xi: ribэ gэ dэ γruэg | Nuэr э'du:rt '∫'w:rti:n gэ ro dinэN er magu: э te∫i:φ э ji:nu: φi: | hanik ∫e: ŋ ku:r эnэ xrp w:rэ wi: taxt эNiэr le∫ эN unru: tilэ gi∫ Ni: aki ∫e: taxt βli: эrĩэβ e: Nax meh n sderim nsNэ sa:li: egэ | ogi∫ Ni:rβ e: ∫in э te:N tuэr эwa:n | β΄i: Nэ φi:La:n эnэ sgati: эr φud Nэ wa:Lti: le: tri: la: rĩβэ ∫in mэr βet∫iэd э teu: : warigэ | ogэs khэru: di: ba:r Na: kaxtэr oku: эn '∫an'ro:ŋ glas Nax wakэs han a:N La: 'mi:'ortu:nэx u:di: эr ba:u: Luŋ βĩtil βi: ∫e: γa: a:nt he:n hart le: kladэx | e: brahnu: wэjэ ∫dax эr Nэ tiφi: mэr βet∫e: magu: | '∫'xlagэN er э βi: Liэ le: i:∫ эgэs kum er gэ ro ∫e: xэ kri:Nэ le: solu:

(Message edited by Peadar Grofa on February 11, 2005)

Peadar Grofa

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Jonas
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Username: Jonas

Post Number: 639
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

An bhfuil tip igint agat n an gcuireann t fin IPA ar an scal? M t tip agat, c h at lamh?

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 93
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Print Post



(Message edited by Lughaidh on February 11, 2005)

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 94
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

na ∫i:lэN ∫iβ go met ∫a iNtэ graNwэr d ∫kri:φэs mid ilig iNs э No:riart mor ∫in эn∫o ? ah s φi:r : r:t go do:khэt ∫a kod wj amэ, er э drohu.эj

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 04:11 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ni:l э lehidэ gэ te:p aN fari:r ax эs mi∫
эŋ ke: le:jэns эN Lэuэr mэr ∫in Le:r mэr do:lim me: n xanu:Nt a:N Lэur э ∫gri:β e:mэN эk эN ali:

Peadar Grofa

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 154
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I wrote most of this message nine days ago, so I guess its about time to go ahead and post it:

Siadhail's transcription in "Learning Irish" covers the basic phonology of Cois Fhairrge, without going too far into variant pronunciations or distinctions that are no longer consistently made in that dialect area. For example, he gives [saurэ] samhradh, [gi:wrэ] geimhreadh, although some speakers may still pronounce them with nasalized vowels [surэ], [gĩ:wrэ] or even with a nasal obstruent [samrэ], [gi:mrэ].

In The Irish of Erris, Co. Mayo, amonn Mhac an Fhailigh transcribed those words as [swru:], [gĩvru:], but explained that the [w] and the [v] in such words are both nasalized bilabial fricatives. The dialect has the diphthong [эu], as in [rэuэ] rogha, [tэuэ] togha, [Lэur] or [Lэuэr] leabhar, [mэuir] meabhair, [эuN] or [эuiN] abhainn; but it does not have [au].

Mhac an Fhailighs book, like some of the other dialect studies, makes no mention at all of labiodental fricatives, because there are none in the dialect. The labial fricatives are bilabial in all positions. Using β, β΄, φ and φ΄ to represent them draws attention to this fact, as well as to the fact that -amh- is not a diphthong, but a vowel and a consonant.

>Are you a linguist too, like Lughaidh, a Pheadair?<

Sort of a mostly self-taught one.

B.A. 1982
Major: English (Linguistics option)
Minor: Spanish

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/20/13338.html#POST19426

Peadar Grofa

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 155
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

that -amh- is not a diphthong, but a vowel and a consonant.

Likewise initial amh- is [β] in words like [βil] amhail; but exceptionally [o:] in [o:ra:n] amhrn; and -mhar- is reduced to [ŋ] in [aŋk] amharc (spelled "amhanc" in the original edition, at least, of "Pdhraic Mhire Bhn"); cf. [kuŋ] cumhang (with short -u-; but now "cng" in the "standard" spelling).

Peadar Grofa

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.126
Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"that -amh- is not a diphthong, but a vowel and a consonant."
-Peadar

I know there are di & trithongs. Are there quadthongs and cinqthongs?

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Peadar__grofa
Member
Username: Peadar__grofa

Post Number: 158
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 01:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

> But the pentaphthong must surely be as fabled as the unicorn.

I've got a sudden urge to create a conlang filled with tetra- and pentaphthongs, perhaps spoken by a race of intelligent unicorns.
;-) Maybe even a few hexaphthongs.


http://listserv.brown.edu/archives/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0008b&L=conlang&D=0&P=41195
__________

There are triphthongs, tetraphthongs, pentaphthongs, hexaphthongs, heptaphthongs, and even octophthongs.

http://rudhar.com/foneport/en/not2port.htm#Note16c-VowelStretch

Peadar Grofa

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'dj@ks
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 159.134.221.245
Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 05:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

"There are triphthongs, tetraphthongs, pentaphthongs, hexaphthongs, heptaphthongs, and even octophthongs"
-R. Harmsen.

Jeez...!



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