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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 2005- » 2005 (January-February) » Archive through January 14, 2005 » Cuidigh le aistriuchan, le do thoil « Previous Next »

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Antoin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.120.238.186
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 03:39 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Dar le foinsi eagsulachta, ta ceim amhain eile deanta ag J.Hartson agus a ghniomhaire ar taobh den thodhchai Hartson ag Celtic.Ta rol larnach ag Hartson ar fhoireann agus nior fhearr leis an bhainisteoir,Martin O Neill no leis an lucht tacaiochta a fheiceail ar Hartson ag fagail an club.


It seems to a variety of sources, J.Hartson has made another step with his agent about Hartsons future with Celtic.Hartson has a central role on the team and the manager, Martin O Neill or the supporters dont prefer to see Hartson leaving the club.

Le meas
Antoin

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 699
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 04:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Antóin: Which do you want help with? The Irish is slightly incorrect, so I'll assume it's that.

Dar le foinsi eagsulachta, tá céim amhain eile deanta tógtha ag J.Hartson agus a ghniomhaire ar taobh den thodhchai maidir le todhchaí Hartson ag Celtic.Ta rol larnach ag Hartson ar anfhoireann agus nior fhearr mhaithe leis an mbainisteoir,Martin O Neill no ná leis an lucht tacaiochta a fheiceail ar Hartson a fheiceail ag fagail an club.

Still some fadas missing, but I think you know that.

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Antoin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.120.238.186
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 08:29 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

GRMA,a Aonghuis.
I should have explained that the irish is taken from a local newspaper 'the irish news'and it was my effort at translating/understanding it in english.

So what do you think now?

Le meas
Antoin.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 700
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 08:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Oh, well. I thought some of the things I corrected might have been dialect!.

It seems According to a variety of sources, J.Hartson has made taken another step with his agent about Hartsons future with Celtic.Hartson has a central role on the team and the manager, Martin O Neill or the supporters dont prefer want to see Hartson leaving the club.

I think you got it!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 703
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 09:10 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

And I see some typos got past me:

"níor mhaith"
"ar an bhfhoireann"

Do you mean the North of Ireland paper, btw? I know they have a daily page in Irish now, and they would use "Belfast" Irish, which would use some of the forms I "corrected" above. (But I still think some are wrong!): http://www.irishnews.com/

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 69
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Friday, January 07, 2005 - 09:17 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Mar eolas daoibh, particularly for any of you who may be in various distant parts of the world and have no idea what this story is about.
Glasgow Celtic are a Scottish football (soccer) team with a strong Irish following.
John Hartson is a Welsh international player who is Celtic's top goal scorer.
His contract with Celtic ends in the summer of 2005 and his agent is currently in talks with Celtic's (Irish) manager (head coach), Martin O'Neill, about extending his contract with the club.
Le meas!
Chris

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 70
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Saturday, January 08, 2005 - 08:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghuis, a chara,
Ceist agam ort.
I'm pretty sure you're right about this text being Belfast Irish from the Irish News Gaelic pages.
I'm very interested in the whole phenonmenon of Belfast Irish from a linguistic perspective - avoiding as much as possible the various political aspects.
Dá bhrí sin, I'd be keen to know which of the items you've amended you'd categorise as errors and why.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 713
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 12:25 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

eagsulachta definitely.
céim déanta almost certainly
"a fheiceail ar Hartson ag fagail an club." ditto.
ar fhoireann is missing something (I'd have said "Ar an bhfoireann" - but ar an fhoireann I believe is correct in Ulster Irish).


As for why - the usual reason - gut feeling (native speaker intuition). But it has betrayed me before.

I often lock horns with Lá over what I consider to be direct translations of english clichés to irish.

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 71
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 05:53 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghuis, a chara,
Tá mé buíoch díot as do chúnamh.
You "native speaker intuition" was exactly what I was looking for.
My own observations on Belfast Irish (in brief) would be as follows.
The formal model adopted has been from Donegal Irish, but the living dialect has gone well beyond that.
Firstly, the pronunciation has taken on a characteristically "Belfast accent" with respect to the dynamic features of phonology. (I find this entirely acceptable and I think I pointed out in another discussion here that in many cases the features of the pronunciation which are thus being "introduced" into the language are actually features of Antrim Irish being "re-introduced".)
In the written form, a small number of writers - including, I believe a couple who work on Lá and/or The Irish News - are self-consciously seeking to reintroduce Antrim forms in their work. Linguistically, this is a very interesting strategy, but it is also very risky - particularly in terms of native speaker reaction to these forms. (My own view of this phenomenon, when I have been aware of it in action, is that it hasn't really worked.)
The final disctinctive feature of the dialect is, as far as I'm aware, the precise point on which you comment. There is a marked tendency to follow English syntax, particularly in structures which have a phrasal verb in English, and to produce forms which are effectively using Irish words to produce a "calque" on the English form. (I hope I'm not misreading your "direct translations of English clichés" in seeing this as what you mean.)
This sort of development is not unusual for "languages in contact" - and indeed I have come across the same thing in relation to two American Indian languages - Niimipu (Nez Perce) and Omisista (Northern Cheyenne). There too, however, these calques are features about which older native speakers - who were more likely to have had these languages as a crade tongue - tend to exhibit strong negative feelings.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 720
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 07:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

quote:

There too, however, these calques are features about which older native speakers - who were more likely to have had these languages as a crade tongue - tend to exhibit strong negative feelings



Nilím chomh sean sin!

Cúpla sample
murascail - gulf (I'd say bearna)
cárta ionnanais - identity card - recté cárta aitheantais
ionnanas (briotánach na nAontachtaithe) - féiniúlacht
cló gorm (yuck)
sa ghort - in the field (referring to people at a particular place)

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Ó_diocháin
Member
Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 72
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 09:25 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghuis, a chara,
Go raibh maith agat as an teachtaireacht seo.
I obviously wasn't meaning that you were old, it's just that with the American Indian languages in my example, you only really have older speakers who may have had the languages as a cradle tongue from (near) monoglot native speakers who have anything approaching a native speaker degree of sensitivity to the language. Thankfully with Irish that is not the case!
Thanks too for the examples you give. They illustrate more vocabulary issues than the sort of structural things I have come across in Lá (and elsewhere) and that I had in mind.
I think it is more difficult to ascribe this phenomenon to Belfast Irish as such, since I've certainly come across this sort of "inter-language" elsewhere in Ireland. (And indeed I've heard from a number of sources - including I think some previous discussions on here - of this sort of thing appearing in print, even in official publications, in various parts of Ireland including the Gaeltacht!)
Unless I'm mistaken, though, the specific phrasal verb calque that I was using as an example doesn't seem to be happening elsewhere.
Slán beo!
Chris

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 723
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 10:38 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Another example: (and a pet hate of mine)
amáil - timing - as in "the timing of this statement"

I agree that these are more vocabulary issues, these are the ones that stuck in my memory. And that other publications also have this kind of thing. But Lá seems to have more of them per column inch; I find that disappointing because I feel they, since they are being read by upwards of 5000 people a day (according to the ABC sales figures of 4400), ought to be setting standards.

Can you give me an example of a calque - since I don't know what it is?

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Ó_diocháin
Member
Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 73
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 11:13 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Aonghuis, a chara,
My Irish isn't up to coming up with a calque off the top of my head, but I'll try to post some examples from Lá later in the week.
In the meantime, here's a slightly edited version of the definition of calque from http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19971022

"A calque is a technical term in linguistics, another name for a loan translation. The usual meaning of calque is 'a compound word or expression formed by the literal translation of each element of the compound from another language'. A clear example is the English word superman, which is derived from the German word Übermensch, coined by Nietzsche from German über 'above' and Mensch 'man'. A normal borrowing would simply take the German word into English in its German form; a calque translates the elements.
Some other examples of loan translation into English are marriage of convenience, from French "mariage de convenance", and world view, from German "Weltanschauung". An example of loan translation from English is skyscraper, which appears in French as "gratte-ciel" ('scrape-sky') and in German as "Wolkenkratzer" ('cloud-scrape').
Though it is not the usual sense, calque is sometimes used to refer to the literal translation of a figurative sense of a word when that figurative sense does not exist in the borrowing language.
Take the word "bimbo", for example. The Italian word "bimbo" normally means a little child or a baby. It does not have the slang senses of English "babe/baby", where it is used as a term of address between men, or of attractive women. It thus seems likely that when "bimbo" shows up in Italian with the senses of English "babe/baby", it represents the literal translation of the word "babe/baby" to reflect figurative senses of English "babe/baby". Another example, also involving Italian, is the English word jiboney 'a fool'. This probably results from a dialectal Italian word "giambone", literally 'ham', as a calque of the English slang term ham in senses relating to overacting.
Both calque and loan translation are first found in English in the 1930s."

Slán beo!
Chris

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 727
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 07:49 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agat
I think "amáil an ráiteas seo" (the timing of this statement) fits that definition - constructs like that are all too frequent ar leathanaigh Lá.



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