I've seen many variations of the definte article, and I was wondering if anyone knew the Irish, I guess, "Standard" for it.
What is it in the Nominative sing. and the Gen. Sing. and the Nom. Plur., and the Gen. plur. Etc......
All I have now is a dictionary, and it really doesn't have anything about the definite article.
I'd appreciate any help.
Slán go fóill.
Cáit.

A Natalie, a chara,

nominative singular = an, e.g., an t-athair
genitive singular masculine = an, e.g., teach an tsagart
genitive singular feminine = na, e.g., Daltaí na Gaeilge

nominative plural = na, e.g., na huimhireacha
genitive plural = na, e.g., Cumann na mBan

Sometimes the definite article gets bound to a preposition, e.g., faoi + an = faoin.

(Message edited by lúcas on November 11, 2004)

Forgive me Cáit for getting you mixed up with Natalie. It's just another senior moment.

The Irish for "the" is "an".

the dog = an madra

"an" may make a sound alteration to the word that follows it; the factors involved are:

1) Gender, ie. whether it's masculine or feminine
2) If it starts with a vowel
3) If it starts with an 's'

Here's some masculine nouns:

madra, fear, buachaill, garda

"an" doesn't alter them:

an madra, an fear, an buachaill, an garda

---

Now some feminine nouns:

an bhean, an fhuaim, an fhuinneoig, an chaoi

Feminine nouns get a séimhiú.

---

Now, ones that begin with a vowel:

Masculine: an t-úll, an t-athair (they get a 't')
Feminine: an áit, an aiste

--

And ones that begin with an 's':

Masculine: an siúcra
Feminine: an tsráid (they get a 't')

--

Then there's the plural of "an", which is "na". "Na" makes no alterations whatsoever, but it does stick a 'h' before a vowel:

na capaill
na gardaí
na húlla
na huibheacha
na siúcraí
na sráideanna
na buachaillí
na mná
na hasail

Now... moving on to the genetive case, AKA the possessive case. It's pretty much the mirror image of the nominative above... but with one little delicacy -- in the singular feminine, it becomes "na". So...

ainm an mhadra
ainm an gharda
ainm an bhuachalla

ainm na mná
ainm na sráide
ainm na fuinneoige
ainm na staire

--

Possessive case with vowels:

Masculine: ainm an asail (note the absence of 't')
Feminine: muintir na háite

--

Possessive case with 's':

ainm an tsiúcra (note it's the mirror image!)
ainm na sráide

--

Now, the plural possessive case. "na" + urú:

ainmneacha na mbuachaillí
ainmneacha na siúcraí
ainmneacha na n-áiteanna

--

Now, notwithstanding any of the above rules, you have the infamous:

DTS not séimhiú'd after DTSLN

As such, even if you have a feminine noun, it may not be séimhiú'd:

an duais

Or, conversely, if you have a masculine noun in the possessive:

ainm an dorais

--

So in summation, here's a few examples:

an buachaill
an bhéim
ainm an bhuachalla
ainm na béime
na buachaillí
na béimeanna
ainmneacha na mbuachaillí
ainmneacha na mbéimeanna

an siúcra
an tsráid
ainm an tsiúcra
ainm na sráide
na siúcraí
na sráideanna
ainmneacha na siúcraí
ainmneacha na sráideanna

an t-asal
an áit
ainm an asail
ainm na háite
na hasail
na háiteanna
ainmneacha na n-asal
ainmneacha na n-áiteanna

an doras (masculine)
an duais (feminine) ( no 'h' though )
ainm an dorais ( no 'h' though )
ainm na duaise
na doirse
na duaiseanna
ainmneacha na ndoirse
ainmneacha na nduaiseanna

--

Bain sult as!

Also, as Lúcas pointed out, you'll see mutations:

le + an --- leis an
faoi + an --- faoin
trí + an --- tríd an
de + an --- den
do + an --- don
i + an --- sa (or less commonly "ins an")

Other mutations you'll see:

do + a --- dá
de + a --- dá
de + vowel --- d'asal
do + vowel --- d'fhear
trí + a --- trínar
faoi + ár --- faoinár

Apart from "dá", they're all pretty easy to spot!

They only sort-of mutation I can think of with "na" is:

leis na buachaillí

(which is because "le + a" becomes "lena". "lena" and "le na" would be too similar)

Lúcas, you must've just been thinking that I was probably going to ask another question anyway, which I am, as soon as this conversation about the article is finished. (I don't like starting my own thread)

But in the mean time, I have a question about this, are there more mutations out there then the ones Fear na mBróg listed? Are those just a sample or pretty much all the ones there are? And also, what do those mutations do to any following words? As in, do they lenite them or eclipse them?

I've talked about the nominative and the genetive case... now here comes the dative case:

You have the dative case when there's a preposition, eg.

ar an mbord

The first rule here is that in the dative case, where you have:

[preposition] + [the] + [noun]

that it gets an urú. As such we have:

ar an mbord
faoin mbord
leis an mbuachaill
tríd an bhfuinneoig
ón ngarda

Funnily enough though, vowels don't get an urú here:

ar an asal
ón úll

"sa", "do" and "de" are different though, they cause a séimhiú:

don fhear
sa Fhrainc
de ghnáth

But then ofcourse, you have Connacht, where it's backwards:

leis an bhuachaill
ar an bhord
ón chailín
faoin gharda

sa gcarr
don gcapall
den gcás

A Natalie, a chara,

Fear na mBróg pretty much covered all the mutations of the definite article, but there are others out there. In general, there are four mutations or inflections that occur in the front of Irish words, namely:

• séimhiú -- a softening of the initial consonant of a word, e.g., the verb bain, harvest, gets softened to form the past tense, bhain, harvested. The b, a bilabial voiced stop, is softened to a w-sound, a bilabial voiced fricative. It is indicated in roman font by adding an h after the consonant.
  
• úrú -- intitial consonants are eclipsed by other consonants and vowels are eclipsed by the letter n. Eclipsed means that a new letter is placed in front of the existing inital letter. If a consonant is being eclipsed, the new letter is pronounced instead of the orignal letter. For example, the noun bád, boat, is eclipsed by an m, m always eclipses b, when placed before a plural possive adjective as in ár mbád, our boat. The b is no longer pronounced.
  
• prefix h -- Sometimes the letter h is added to a word beginning with a vowel. For example, uibh, egg, becomes na huimheacha, the eggs, when a plural form of the definite article precedes it.
  
• prefix t -- Sometimes the letter t is added to a beginning of a word, .e.g., sagart, priest, becomes teach an tsagart, the priest's house, in the genitive case when preceded by the definite article.
  

Those are all the initial mutations you will find in Irish. It is important to recognize these initials mutations, and to strip them off of a word before trying to look them up in a dictionary. There are a lot of different mutations you will find at the end of words too, ach sin scéal eile.

(Message edited by lúcas on November 12, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 12, 2004)

Lúcas, you have explained the "article" very well and I hesitate to focus on a small error, but I suppose once a teacher always a teacher so I have to get the red pen out again. Please forgive me.
The genitive singular case of 'sagart' is 'sagairt'. The example you gave should be "teach an tsagairt".

I have an explanation of the use of the 'article' on my website at this page;
http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/alt.html

You are absolutely right, Kay. Thank you.

I almost forgot, Kay. You did a marvelous job on your web site. I especially like the themes. I teach ocassionaly at the Daltaí weekends and I like to organize classes around themes to develop what Éamonn Ó Donaill calls "functional literacy." I hope you don't mind if I borrow some of your pages in the future.

Thanks again,

Lúcas you are indeed a fear uasal. Thank you for the nice things you said about my site. I hope to do some work soon on that section and bring it up todate. I am working on the grammar section at the moment. The leanbh nua is now going to school and has a little sister who is two years old now so it must be time to update. I am glad that you are using my pages.

When I started work on Gaeilge na Seachtaine I was recovering from cancer and I had a lot of time to spend. I love Irish and I didn't want to go to meet my maker without knowing my own language. I felt that part of my soul was not complete. I think concentrating on something that I loved doing was very good medicine and now thankfully I have made a full recovery and I am enjoying my life. Thanks again for your kind words. If you come across any mistakes on my site be sure and tell me.

Is mise le meas
Kay

(Message edited by kay on November 12, 2004)

Natalie...you need to understand that Lúcas invented Irish grammar. while some people are addicted to recreational narcotics, Lúcas is addicted to Gramadach, and has committed it all to memory, so anything you need to know, he's the man to ask (it must be a donegal thing)

Hi Kay,
I think your website is wonderful too. I did notice a few things I thought were incorrect but you can correct me if I'm wrong.
You have 'ar chuairt' for 'to visit' when it should be 'ar cuairt'.
And I've never heard the word 'leachtanna' for tombstones....leac means stone alright and 'leac thuama' is a tombstone. Maybe it's another word for it? I couldn't find it in the dictionary I had.
Anyway, I wish more people would have websites that are as handy...I will definitely recommend it to Irish learners I know!

lol, go raibh maith agaibh. When I'm looking up words in the dictionary, I can usually figure out what to take off or change on the word before I look it up (thank goodness I have finally mastered that) but the only problem I have with the mutations, is trying to put them back on when I'm writing it all out.

Anyway, I'm going to try and explain my next question because its hard to explain in my brain. In my book it tells how to change words into all the different tenses of the verbs and it also says how to make them negative, a question or a negative question. The problem I found with my book (Teach Yourself Irish) was that it was sort of all over the place. Therefore present tense was back in the 6th chapter (or so) and conditional was way up in the 21st chapter. Sometimes little notes would be mentioned referring back to something that should've been discussed a chapter ago. I finished my book the other day and now I have all intentions of studying it day and night until I know it pretty good. I wrote out some notes and stuff and I've managed to seperate all the verbs and stuff except, I can't figure out and get out of it all, the negative, question and negative question markers for each tense. That's where my actual question comes in.

Can anyone help me to make a table like the one from my book below that gives all those three things, for each tense with the mutations they cause such as lenition and eclipse? (this one doesn't show the mutations, I just copied it right out of the book) Oh and another thing, if you are able to help me with this, just forget about all the irregular ones because I'll just learn them individually.

	Negative	Question	Negative Question
Present	ní	an	nach
Past	níor	ar	nár

(Message edited by natalie on November 14, 2004)

Past Tense:

Ar dhún tú?
Dhún mé.
Níor dhún mé.
Nár dhún seisean?
Dúirt sé gur dhún sé.
Dúirt sé nár dhún sé.

Every other tense:

An mbriseann tú?
Brisim.
Ní bhrisim.
Nach mbriseann seisean?
Deir sé go mbriseann sé.
Deir sé nach mbriseann sé.


There's irregular past tense verbs that take the latter ones:

Chuaigh mé.
Ní dheachaigh mé.
An ndeachaigh tusa?
Nach ndeachaigh seisean?
Dúirt sé go ndeachaigh sé.
... nach ndeachaigh...

A Natalie, a chara, Here's a start

	Negative	Question	Negative Question
Present	ní bhainim ní bhaineann tú ní bhaineann sé ní bhaineann sí ní bhainimid ní bhaineann sibh ní bhaineann siad ní bhaintear	an mbainim? an mbaineann tú? an mbaineann sé? an mbaineann sí? an mbainimid? an mbaineann sibh? an mbaineann siad? an mbaintear?	nach mbainim? nach mbaineann tú? nach mbaineann sé? nach mbaineann sí? nach mbainimid? nach mbaineann sibh? nach mbaineann siad? nach mbaintear?
Past	níor bhain mé níor bhain tú níor bhain sé níor bhain sí níor bhaineamar níor bhain sibh níor bhain siad níor bhaineadh	ar bhain mé? ar bhain tú? ar bhain sé? ar bhain sí? ar bhaineamar? ar bhain sibh? ar bhain siad? ar bhaineadh?	nár bhainim nár bhaineann tú nár bhaineann sé nár bhaineann sí nár bhainimid nár bhaineann sibh nár bhaineann siad nár bhaintear

You can construct the rest of this conjugation yourself, as I did, using http://www.csis.ul.ie/focloir/ except for the negative question. Just plug in any verb you like and click on the "cuardaigh" button. It will conjugate that verb in the affirmative form. Click the "diultach" button and you will get the negative form. Click the "ceisteach" button and you will get the interogatory form. You are on your own for the negative question form.

Nach is used to make the negative question form for every regular verb in every tense except the past tense, [Of course, you can not create questions in the imperative mood.] and it causes úrú, eclipsis, on the verb that follows it. Nár is used for regular verbs in the past tense and causes séimhiú for the verb that follows.

When you get to the irregular verbs think of a nightmare report card to remember the exceptions to the nár rule above, three D's, 2 F's and an R.

• nach ndeachaidh
  
• nach ndearna
  
• nach nduirt
  
• nach bhfaca
  
• nach bhfuair
  
• nach raibh
  

These are the special irregular verbs that use nach with the dependent form of the verb. This nightmare report card nuemonic also works for remembering the exceptions to the ar rule for irregular verbs, i.e., substitute 'an' for 'nach' in the list above and you have the exceptions in the irregular verbs for the rule on making questions in the past tense with 'ar'.

(Antaine, I wish I could be clever enough to invent this stuff, but I am not.)(Sorry, Fear na mBróg, I did not see your post. If I had, I would not have repeated it.)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 14, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 14, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 14, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 14, 2004)

(Message edited by lúcas on November 14, 2004)

http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/spleach.html

You might find some help on this page.

Ok, so technically, if I was going to simplify everything that everyone said, there are really only 6 forms:

An/Ar
Ní/ Níor
Nach/ Nár

And only the Past tense uses the other alternative (ar, níor, nár) because if thats all it is then I'm not very smart!

I just read those two sites and I absolutely can't believe it! I knew there weren't any other forms but I thought it was so much more complicated then that!!! Anyway, this will teach me to pay more attention to my book next time!

Thank you to everyone, especially for putting up with my stupid questions!

*By the way, I like the little memory hook of the nightmare report card! Hopefully my own report card won't be that bad this week! :)

A Natalie, a chara,

There are no stupid questions, but sometimes you can jump to erroneous conclusions. For example, there are, technically, more than 6 forms, since there are more than six verbal particles, e.g., a, má, dá, mura, ar, go, sula, ... not to mention the interogatory praticle like cá, cé, conas, ... Check out Kay's site referenced above or another page of her's, http://www.gaeilgenaseachtaine.com/dean.html for more on these. I think you will see that they are all variations on the themes given above.

Go n-éirí cárta na tuarascála leat.

Past tense forms:

Ar dhún tú?
Níor dhún tú.
Dúirt sé gur dhún tú.
Dúirt sé nár dhún tú.
Chuaigh mé sular dhún sé.
Sin an doras ar dhún sé.


All other forms:

An ndúnann tú?
Ní dhúnann tú.
Deir sé go ndúnann tú.
Deir sé nach ndúnann tú.
Rachaidh mé sula ndúnfaidh sé.
Sin an doras a ndúnfaidh sé.

They're the main ones!

Note also that good ol' "is" has it's own funky forms to:

Cé hé? = Who is he?
Cérbh é? = Who was he?

Mura buachaill é = If he isn't a boy
Murar bhuachaill é = If he wasn't a boy
Murab éan é = If it isn't a bird
Murarbh éan é = If it wasn't a bird
(I'm not 100% on the above four)

Note also that you'll have:

Dúirt sé gur ól sé.

But that when the "gur" indicates "is", it'll change for vowels:

Dúirt sé gurbh amadán é.

Ok, I remember learning about all those forms except "sula" and "sular". What are those?

ways of saying "before"

sula [cónasc][réamhfhocal]
roimh (sula n-éirím ar maidin; sular casadh orm é); ar eagla, ar fhaitíos (sula ngoidfí iad).

Ok...go raibh maith agaibh. May I ask another question now? I've been memorising how to form all the different tenses and I've pretty much got it down pat but when I looked in my dictionary (which has a little verb table in the middle), I saw another tense that was not in my book. What is the Present Subjonctive? Can anyone give me an English example?

Present Subjunctive: Go raibh maith agat, i. e.
May there be good at you.

Present Subjunctive: Go dté tú slán (is go dtaga tú slán) = Bon voyage =
May you go safely and may you come (back to us) safely.

= Go dté tú slán (is go dtige tú slán) = Bon voyage.

A Natalie, a chara,

A general search can bring results like the following, below, if you skip some of what is shoved at you.
I didn't search on the Daltaí site although I imagine that we have had cause to discuss this some time before.

In parting, I can use an other example in wishing you the best, by means of the Pres. Subj.:

Go n-éirí an ghramadach leat!
(Good luck with the grammar)

---------------------------------------


Graiméar

The subjunctive, an modh foshuiteach (foh-HI-tahk*) san aimsir láithreach

Irish has a separate form for expressing the equivalent of "I hope that __ ", or "May it __," or "It should __ ." This is called the present tense of the subjunctive mood. It is simple to form and use. Here are several examples to memorize before looking at the rules for forming the mood and tense:

go dtaga do ríocht (REE-ohk*t); may Thy kingdom come

go maire tú (MAH-re too); may you live, long life to you.

go mbeannaí Dia duit (goh MAN-ee DEE-uh git); may God bless you.

go raibh maith agat; thank you (may you have good).

The negative form is introduced by "nár" (naw*r) and is usually imprecation or wish for unfavorable outcome or for punishment, although a few exceptions are found:

Nár agraí Dia air é; may God not punish him for it.

Nár laga Dia a lámh; may God not weaken his hand.




------------------------------------------
Thógas an méid sin anuas as an áit seo:
http://www.leyline.org/cra/languages/IrishPeople/Lesson119.html

OH! Thank you very much Seosamh, I'm very clueless these days! My idea of grammar before learning French/Irish was past/present/future (although I am now aware that I used other tenses and they are called conditional, etc.). Sometimes I get bogged down with all of it. Thanks again!

Fáilte romhat a Natalie.

In ref. to grammar, the seanfhocal 'bíonn blas ar an mbeagán' is appropriate.
('blas' has a negative effect in Connachta, positive in Ulaidh.)
Meaning: small snippits are tasty in Ulaidh,
in Connachta: small doses are okay!

Natalie,

The present tense of the subjunctive mood is most often used to pray and curse, e.g.:

---

Mise le meas,

Lúcas

...
go naofar d'ainm,	hallowed be thy name,
go dtaga do ríocht	thy kingdom come
go ndéantar do thoil	thy will be done
...
Go n-ithe an cat thú agus go n-ithe an diabhal an cat!	May the cat eat you and may the devil eat the cat!
Cait Member Username: Cait Post Number: 45 Registered: 09-2004	Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 09:19 am:    I know this was mentioned earlier, but the word "gur" when is it used and for what purpose. I've seen it used as the word "that" when before a verb, but I wonder if there is a better explaination. Go raibh maith agaibh. Cáit.
Pádraig Member Username: Pádraig Post Number: 43 Registered: 09-2004	Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 11:16 am:    This thread is every bit as comprehensive as Christian Brothers if not more so. Y'all ought to get together and write your own grammar, or at least devise a set of charts that beginners can tack up on the wall for quick reference. Meanwhile the discussion of "t before the noun after na" got me to wondering. Is the Anglisized surname MacTaggart a derivation of Mac an tsagairt which at best would be an oxymoron?
Aonghus Member Username: Aonghus Post Number: 449 Registered: 08-2004	Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 04:42 pm:    Is the Anglisized surname MacTaggart a derivation of Mac an tsagairt? Yes. Celibacy, after all, was only introduced in the Thirteenth Century.