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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (October-December) » Archive through November 11, 2004 » Repeating statements for emphasis « Previous Next »

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Jimnuaeabhrac
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Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

I am really curious about something, I wonder if you can help me.

I have never heard this issue discussed before. In Genesis chp 3:verse 4, the serpent says:

“Certainly, you will not die!” While in “An Bíobla Naofa” it is: “ní bhfaighidh sibh bas, ní bhfaighidh sin!”

I think I can produce another example from the Bible where the sense of “verily” or “certainly” is produced in Irish by repetition, not by vocabulary. (I know the Bible wasn’t written in English.) Have you folks noticed this? Is there reluctance in Irish to use “go cinnte” or “go deimhin” in some contexts?

Which brings me to two lines from “An Spailpín Fánach.”

“Mar chroithfinn an síol faoi dhó san Earrach in éadan na dtailtí bána,
Mar chroithfinn an síol faoi dhó san Earrach in éadan tailtí bána”

Is this a double entendre? That is, he spreads his seed twice and the phrase is repeated twice, obstensibly for emphasis, which has him actually spreading seed twice, twice?

I would appreciate hearing your thoughts on this.

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Rebecca (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.148.143
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 04:45 am:   Edit Post Print Post

You wouldn't say 'go cinnte' or 'go deimhin' in that sense in Irish on its own. You might say 'go cinnte ní bhfaighfidh' (you certainly won't)
But in general certainly would be translated in the way above....'an rachaidh tú ag an siopa?' 'rachaidh sin' (I will that)
It is incorrect to translate a language directly word for word (as I'm sure you know) and it;s the mistake alot of people make, especially when translating words from English to Irish...mainly because they think in English when translating and not in Irish.
Maidir le do cheist faoin Spailpín Fánach, I'm not too sure. Is it a poem? It sounds like it's repeated because he's saying he spreads the seeds twice, therefore he says it twice. It's something that's done quite often in poetry but it's just a guess.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 379
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 04:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Repitition of the verb is more emphatic than adding "go cinnte". The latter carries the sense of "in my opinion".

I believe there is a double entredre in the line from an spailpín fánach; but it has nothing to do with the repition of the text, and eveything to do with the virile advantages of the wandering labourer over the settled farmer. Are you sure the line is repeated?

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.1.100.102
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 05:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Téacs dhá leagan ag Áine Nic Dhabhóic daoibh a chairde http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/8998/spailpin_fanach_2.html :

An Spailpín Fánach

Seo an Spailpín fánach ón sliabh anuas
Le coiscéim éadrom lúfar
Ag ceiliúr is ag ceol agus draíocht ina ghlór
Agus mheall sé an ógbhean uasal
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí
Ag ceiliúr is ag ceol agus draíocht ina ghlór
Agus mheall sé an ógbhean uasal

D’fhág sise teach a hathar féin
D’fhág sise gaolta is cairde
Thréig sise ‘n fear a bhí luaite léi
Agus lean sí an Spailpín fánach
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé,
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí,
Thréig sise ‘n fear a bhí luaite léi
Agus lean sí an Spailpín fánach

Ghluais a hathair sa tóir ‘na ndiaidh
Trasna sléibhte is bánta
Ag iarraidh tuairisc’ fána ‘níon
Is an Spailpín béalbhinn fánach
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé,
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí,
Ag iarraidh tuairisc’ fána ‘níon
Is an Spailpín béalbhinn fánach

Tháinig sé ar ball go dtí caisleán óir
B’ann a fuair sé a’ lánúin
‘S bhí togha gach bía agus rogha gach dí
Ag an ‘níon is an Spailpín fánach
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé,
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí,
‘S bhí togha gach bía agus rogha gach dí
Ag an ‘níon is an Spailpín fánach

"Ní spailpín é, a athair," ar sí
"Ach tiarna óg na háite
Go dté mé i gcré ní scarfaidh mé
Leis an Spailpín béalbhinn fánach."
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé,
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí,
Go dté mé i gcré ní scarfaidh mé
Leis an Spailpín béalbhinn fánach"



(Leagan a Dó)



Go deo deo arís ní raghad go Caiseal,
Ag díol ná ag reic mo shláinte,
Ná ar mharagadh na saoire im shuí cois balla,
Im scaoinse ar leataoibh sráide,
Bodairí na tíre ag teacht ar a gcapaill,
Dá fhiafraí an bhfuilim hírálta,
"Ó téanam chun siúil tá an cúrsa fada"
Seo ar siúl an Spailpín Fánach.

Im Spailpín Fánach fágadh mise,
Ag seasadh ar mo shláinte,
Ag siúl an drúchta go moch ar maidin,
‘S ag bailiú galair ráithe,
Ní fheicfear corrán im’ láimh chun bainte,
Súiste ná feac beag rainne,
Ach bratacha na bhFranncach os cionn mo leapan,
Is píce agam chun sáite.

Mó chúig céad slán chun dúiche m’athar,
‘Gus chun an oileáin ghrámhair,
Is chun buachaill na Cúlach os díobh nár mhiste,
In aimsir chasta an ghárda,
Ach anois ó táimse im chadhan bhocht dhealbh,
Imeasc na ndúichí fáin seo,
‘Sé mo chumha croí mar fuair mé an ghairm,
Bheith riamh im Spailpín Fánach.

Is ró-bhreá is cuimhin liom mo dhaoine bheith sealad,
Thiar ag droichead Gháile,
Fé bhuaí, fé chaoraí, fé laoi bheaga gheala,
Agus capaill ann le h-áireamh,
Acht b’é toil Chríost é gur cuireadh sinn asta,
‘S go ndeaghamhar i leath ár sláinte,
‘S gurbh é bhris mo chroí i ngach tír dá rachainn,
"Call here, you Spailpín Fánach."

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Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 06:42 am:   Edit Post Print Post

All of your comments are very interesting. I know of 3 versions of this song. The one I'm refering to is from Sean 'Ac DoDhonncha's album of the same name. The double entendre I suspected but declined to articulate. Aonghus, you handled it very gracefully!

I should have said it the possible play on words I'm intersted in, repeating the description of something done twice, with the possible extra twist of it being a common construction in Irish. It definitely is repeated. I could never understand why. In fact when I "sing" it, I drop the repeat because it just sounds like I lost my place.

One other thing, there is the switch from "na dtailtí" in the first line to "tailtí" in the second repeat. I wonder why?

Go raibh maith agaibh!


An Spailpín Fánach

Ó is spailpín aerach tréitheach mise
‘gus bígí ‘soláthar mná dom,
Mar chroithfinn an síol faoi dhó san
Earrach in éadan na dtailtí bána
Mar chroithfinn an síol faoi dhó san
Earrach in éadan tailtí bána
Mo lámha ar an gcéachta i ndiaidh na
Gcapall’s go réabfainnse cnoic le fána.

‘S mo chúig céad slán leat, dhúiche
m’athar go deo deo don oileán grámhar
‘S don scata fear óg atá ‘mo dhiaidh ag
baile nár chlis orm in am an ghátair.
Tá Bleá Cliath dóite is tógfar Gaillimh
Beidh lasair a’ainn ar thinte cnámha,
Beidh fíon agus beoir ar an mbord ag
M’athair, sin cabhair ag an spailpín fánach.

Is an chéad lá in Éirinn dar liostáil mise
Bhí mé súgach sásta,
‘S an darna lá dar liostáil mise ó bhí mé buartha cráite,
Ach an tríú lá dar liostáil mise
thabharfainn chúig chéad punt ar fhágáil.
Ach a dtugfainn sin agus an oiread eile
Ní raibh mo phas le fáil a’m.

Agus bhí mise lá breá ar mhargadh Chill
Chainnigh is tháinig sé go trom ag báisteach,
Is tharraing me isteach is chuir mé cúl le balla agus thosaigh ag glaoch na gcárta.
Nár ghlaoigh isteach orm bean a’leanna
A súil le tairbhe mo laí,
‘S dheamhan deoir dár glaodh as sin go
maidin nach raibh thíos in aghaidh an
Spailpín Fánach.

Ó’gus bhí mise lá breá thíos i nGaillimh
Is bhí an abhainn ag gabháil le fána,
Bhí an breac’s an eascainn is an beairtín
Slata ann is chuile ní dá suínnse léi
Ó bhí mná óga ann múinte tógtha, ‘siad a bhí tanaí tláth deas,
Ach dheamhan bean óg dá suínnse léi
Nach gcuirfinn an dubh ar a mbán di.



Is b’fhaide liomsa lá bheinn I dteach
Gan charaid, ná bliain mhór fhada is ráithe,
Mar is buachaillín aerach mé súgach
Meanmnach a bhréagfadh an
Bhruinneal mhánla.
Is a dhá bhean déag bhí ag éad’s ag
Iomaidh liom á súil le tairbhe mo laí,
B’é paidir na caillí nuair a théinn thar an
Tairseach “now behave yourself,” a
Spailpín fánach.

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Rebecca (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 213.202.128.225
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 06:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Now that it's written there, I learnt that in primary school - gosh it bring me back a few years! And when I sing it, with the tune we learnt, it doesn't fit if you don't repeat the line, in fact you are even emphasising the line whilst singing.
As for the ending, it actually wouldn't fit if you sang the second line just like the first.
Do you think there are different tunes for each version?

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 380
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 07:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I suspect the change from na dtailtí (definite) to tailtí (indefinite) is decoration rather than any meaning.

And that version seems to be to be full of double entendres which are single entendres and proud of it! (Quote lifted from Terry Pratchett before Seosamh warns me about plagiarism ).

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 381
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 07:13 am:   Edit Post Print Post

On the Genesis: Here for comparison is the Vulgate
dixit autem serpens ad mulierem nequaquam morte moriemini

and the German
4, Da sprach die Schlange zum Weibe: Ihr werdet keineswegs des Todes sterben

Results for 'nequaquam'
Latin English
nequaquam by no means, not at all.

It seems to me that Luther is closest to the Vulgate, and he translated from the Hebrew (which is beyond me).

But the Irish carries that sense of "by no means"

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 382
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 07:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

And more: Espanol

Entonces la serpiente dijo a la mujer: No moriréis (no mention of certainty here that I can see)

Francais:
Alors le serpent dit à la femme: Vous ne mourrez point;

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Ó_diocháin
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Username: Ó_diocháin

Post Number: 40
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde:
In italiano (edizioni varie):
"Il serpente disse alla donna: "No, non morirete affatto..."
"Allora il serpente disse alla donna: "voi non morrete affatto..."
"Ma il serpente disse alla donna: "Non morirete affatto..."
"E il serpente disse alla donna: 'No, non morrete affatto;"
"E il serpente disse alla donna: Voi non morreste punto..."
The use of "affatto" and "punto" here are emphatic negatives. Repetition is possible for emphasis in Italian, although its use tends to be limited to adjectives and adverbs.
Amb català:
La serp va contestar a la dona: “I ca! No morireu pas!"
The use of "pas" here is an emphatic negative.
Em português:
"Disse a serpente à mulher: Certamente não morrereis."
The emphasis is given by the use of the adverb "certament".
I looked at a couple of Spanish translations of Genesis, and in both cases the verse was as given above by Aonghus. In Spanish, one of the uses of the future can be to give emphasis, and in both cases, reading the chapter as a whole, the use of the future came across as emphatic.
Le meas,
Chris

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Alevans
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Username: Alevans

Post Number: 144
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Seosamh:

"Seo an Spailpín fánach ón sliabh anuas
Le coiscéim éadrom lúfar
Ag ceiliúr is ag ceol agus draíocht ina ghlór
Agus mheall sé an ógbhean uasal
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dú dah dé
Ah dí dú, ah, dí dé dí
Ag ceiliúr is ag ceol agus draíocht ina ghlór
Agus mheall sé an ógbhean uasal"

Interesting. This seems to be the same song we sang in the US, back in the early 1960s, as "The Gypsy Rover"

--Al Evans

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Jimnuaeabhrac
Member
Username: Jimnuaeabhrac

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 06:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go raibh maith agaibh!

What an interesting set of replies! Primarily based on what Aonghus is saying, it seems to me that the repeats in An Spailpín Fánach are primarily for emphasis. To a lesser extent, they probably also play a role as a poetic device and to maintain rhythm as Rebecca suggested.

Rebecca, I think it is really cool that you sang this song in grade school. The contrast with today’s politically correct, neutered and desanguinated themes in children’s education (at least in the States) is dramatic.

(Message edited by jimnuaeabhrac on November 09, 2004)

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Seosamh Mac Muirí (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 193.1.100.102
Posted on Tuesday, November 09, 2004 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Sea Al agus 'The Wandering Gypsy' a thugann Áine Cooke de Bhéarla air:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/8998/spailpin_fanach_2.html



Casann Seán Tyrell leagan a hAon http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/8998/anspailpin.html agus chuirfeadh sé sin an 'Gypsy Rover', cineál, i gcuimhne do dhuine.
http://www.seantyrrell.com/

Rud a tharraing mé chuig an amhrán a bhí ar intinn agam féin nuair a chonaic mé na línte thuas ag an tús: An Spailpín Aerach (tá an litriú gan chóiriú go fóill):

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.CFM?threadID=2623

Subject: Lyr Add: AN SPAILPIN FANACH (trad Irish Gaelic)
From: Virginia Blankenhorn
Date: 05 Sep 97 - 10:39 PM

Here's the text as it was sung on a recording by Sean 'ac Donncha, a traditional singer from Connemara, some years back. I imagine that the Boys of the Lough's version has at least a few of the same verses. Note that some vowels should have long marks (accent marks) over them, but it's too much trouble and looks too confusing in e-mail.

Is spailpin aerach treitheach mise agus bigi ag solathar mna dhom
Mar scaipfinn an siol faoi dho san Earrach in eadan taltai bana (x 2)
Mo lamha ar an gceachta i ndiaidh na gcapall 's go reabfainnse cnoic le fana.

An chead la i nEirinn ar liostail mise, o bhi me sugach sasta
'S an darna la dar liostail mise, o bhi me buartha craite;
Ach an triu la dar liostail mise, thabharfainn cuig cead punt ar fhagail,
Ach go dtugainn sin agus an oiread eile, ni raibh mo phas le fail a'm.

Mo chuig cead slan leat, a dhuthaigh m'athar, is go deo deo don eilean gramhar,
Is don scata fear og ata 'mo dhiaidh ag baile, nach gclisfeadh orm in am a ghathair!
Ta Baile Atha Cliath doite, is togfar Gaillimh, beidh lasair againn ar thinte chamha,
Beidh fion agus beoir ar bord ag m'athair -- sin cabhair ag an Spailpin Fanach!

Agus b'fhaide liomsa lla bheinn i dteach gan charaid na bliain mhor fhada is raithe,
Mar is buachaillin aerach me, sugach meanmach a bhreagfadh bruinneal mhanla.
Agus dha bhean deag a bhi ag ead 's ag iomai liom, a suil le tairfe mo laidhe --
S'e paidir na cailli nuair a theinn thar a tairseach, "now behave yourself, a Spailpin Fanach!"



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