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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (October-December) » Archive through November 11, 2004 » Sunday Times Article 10.31.2004 « Previous Next »

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Náid (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 62.231.55.170
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The kids are, like, so into Dortspeak
John Burns



THE language of young Dubliners is, y’know, totally dominating Hiberno-English. Spoken with a Dart accent, the new lingo is leading to a decline in religious expressions, Gaelic words and rural idioms in everyday speech.
Even the word “culchie”, meaning a person from rural Ireland, is on the way out, being replaced by the Dortspeak “bogger”.



Religious phrases such as “month’s mind” and “holy show” could be obsolete in as little as 10 years, according to Terry Dolan, author of the new edition of A Dictionary of Hiberno-English, to be published this week.

“As the country becomes more international, people do not want to be associated with rural, Celtic or even Christian Ireland,” said Dolan. “Younger people are changing the vocabulary and the pronunciation, and making it more international.

“Many expressions, especially old religious terms, are going out fast because the young generation are so confident about themselves. Their kids will speak as they do, and it is leading to a homogenisation of the language.”

Dolan believes that Dortspeak, as spoken by Ross O’Carroll Kelly, the fictional newspaper character, and AA Roadwatch announcers, is an Irish variation of estuary English, and it is young women who are leading its charge. They, in particular, have popularised saying “so”, with a long o.

“Dortspeak is not just in Dublin 4; we’ve found it as far afield as Roscommon,” said Dolan, an English professor at University College Dublin. “It is led by television, and series such as Friends. They show people who are stylish and successful, almost putting a designer label on language.”

The official definition of Dortspeak is given as “a sometimes derided variety of Hiberno-English which attempts, mainly in its pronunciation of vowels, to appear sophisticated and cosmopolitan, leaning towards an imitation of the Home Counties accent of England, without much success.”

His dictionary is designed to be “a laboratory as well as a museum”, assisting people in other countries to understand Hiberno-Irish expressions but also preserving words that are falling out of everyday use. Mass, confession, Angelus, holy water are all included, as are tallymen, who will become redundant as soon as electronic voting is introduced.

The expression “I’m after”, as in “I’m after having my dinner” is also dying out, according to Dolan. But there are some distinctly Irish quirks in Dortspeak too, such as using the suffix “er” in the coining of nicknames — the Doyler, Croker, Dalyer — and putting the letter “o” at the end of names — Dekko, Jayo, Gaybo.

“There is a noticeable decline in the number of words from the Irish language in daily use,” said Dolan. “This is because of the declining numbers of speakers from the generation who moved easily between Irish and English.”

The second edition contains 1,000 new words, including many new features of Irish life. The Bertie Bowl, industrial schools, Magdalene laundries are new entries, along with the Celtic tiger, which is said to have been coined by Kevin Gardner in the London office of Morgan Stanley Dean Witter.

Other new entries include biddies and ould wans (disrespectful terms for women), and Biffos, which is said to be “bloody ignorant f***** from Offaly”, although in fact the first “b” stands for big. There is no sign of their ugly midlands cousin Buffalos, however.

LINGUISTIC LICENCE

Like — pronounced “loike”; used as a breather in sentences as in “I’m, like, so fed up.”
Totally — absolutely. “Are you into rugby?” “Totally.”

So — an expression popularised by Friends, but with a Dart accent the “o” sound is even longer. “I’m soooooo broke.”

I’m there — I said. As in: “He asked me if I wanted a drink and I’m there, ‘no way, creep’.”



Yeah, roysh - Ironic way of saying “I don’t believe you”. As in: “You were refused entry to Lillie’s? Yeah, roysh!”

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Philosophe
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Username: Philosophe

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 06:43 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Language IS NOT STATIC!!!
Langauges change with every generation and that's what makes it interesting. This is natural. Of course people will be influenced by the accents and language they hear around them from people they can associate with. In the past this would have been largely peers. Now television has entered this category.
I'm sorry to say there's really nothing you can do about it

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

you cannot change the wind (or, in this case, the fact that wind blows), but you can adjust the sails.

Gaeilge needs a makeover...a new image...it needs to become "cool"...the new slang. It needs, at least as far as young dubliners seem to be concerned, to divorce itself from it's traditional rural image and become the latest "friendstalk". How to do it? one clever expression at a time...

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Natalie
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Username: Natalie

Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Unless the thing you like about it is the rural image...

Natalie

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Antaine
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Username: Antaine

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

very true...i like its "ancientness"...unfortunately, i'm regarded as a fuddy-duddy for my interests...the world changes and you either chance with it, or hope for a cult-following at best...

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Natalie
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Username: Natalie

Post Number: 47
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2004 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Well...I do agree that you could make it more interesting by starting common phrases though. That's a very easy thing to do as a teenager...once you start saying something, everyone follows along like sheep. Then people would be rhyming off little phrases in Irish and not even realizing it! :)

I don't think you're a fuddy-duddy, or that would make me a fuddy-duddy! :) Somethings that everyone thinks is a really new idea, is really a very old idea...like bringing back clothes and music from a while ago. It seems right but what not everyone realizes, is its all been done before except now its got a touch of modern flair. It wouldn't hurt to give that a try for the Irish Language as well...

Natalie

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 348
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 04:25 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Just a note:
The article above is about english spoken in Ireland, not about Irish.

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Alevans
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Username: Alevans

Post Number: 141
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 07:41 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Aonghuis,

I thought everybody understood that, and was suggesting that efforts be made to get teenagers to adopt Irish phrases as catch-phrases (instead of the American colloquialisms from the '70s and '80s which were cited).

Actually, in the US, if you made it clear to the teenagers that their parents wouldn't be able to understand them, I bet you could get 70% of them speaking Irish in 3-4 years:-)

--Al Evans

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 64.12.116.199
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I remember much of those examples as so called "valley" or 'valley girl' speak from the early 1980's popularized by the song "Valley Girl" by Moon Zappa.
I don't see how anyone could mistake something so 'anciently fossilized and grodie' as being, like, 'tubular or righteous' or exuding an image of success. I mean, like, it was soooo TO-tally a joke even back then DYUUUHHH ! What EV-errr!! :)
Al has a point, too, there. And all it would really need is a cupla kids to start using everyday Irish phrases again and again and pretty soon the rest would catch on. Hopefully leading to some of those to take a more complete interest in the lingo - OmyGAAawwd! LOL!

-Maidhc.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 351
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Print Post

True.

But only a small fraction of people actually Dortspeak. The problem is that much of Ireland's english language media seems to only be aware of that fraction.

For example, almost 10,000 people were at Oireachtas na Gaeilge in Letterkenny at the weekend, netting the town about 1/4 Million Euro. But there was nothing reported about it in the English language media. A smaller, english language cultural event would be guarenteed to get a good TV and print splash.

A further note: The Sunday Times is not the Sunday Edition of the Irish Times (it has none) but a London newspaper.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 352
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A further, further Note: TG4 in particular is changing the image to a younger, cooler image. Except that as soon as they build up a star, the english media steal her(him)

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(Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 62.231.54.44
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 12:29 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

From Irish Independent 10.01.2004

Dortspeak is here to stay - in a rindabite sort of way By Nicola Anderson

FASHIONABLE 'Dortspeak' has taken over the old expressions, Gaelic words and rural idioms in our everyday language.

And it's not just in Dublin 4.

The new homogenised accent and vocabulary are sweeping the country on the lips of young people from Roscommonto Wexford. A new edition of a Hiberno-English dictionary suggests the death knell for words like "culchie" meaning a person from rural Ireland.

It's being replaced by the 'Dort' version: "bogger".

And religious phrases such as "month's mind" and "a holy show" could be obsolete in as little as 10 years.

That's according to the dictionary's author Terry Dolan, of UCD's Teaching and Research department.

"As the country becomes more international, people do not want to be associated with rural, Celtic or even Christian Ireland," Mr Dolan claims.

He said young people are changing the vocabulary.

They are also changing the pronunciation of the words taught to them by the older generations and making a new language.

"Many expressions, especially old religious terms, are going out fast because the young generation are so confident about themselves," he said.

"Their kids will speak as they do and it is leading to a homogenisation of the language."

Mr Dolan says the new accent is led by TV and series such as 'Friends', and is almost a form of "designer label".

Young women are heading the pack to change the way we speak, along with the trademark "Rindabite" (meaning roundabout) accent of the AA Roadwatch radio announcers and he explains it as a type of "estuary English". Around 1,000 new words now part of everyday speak are included in the dictionary for the first time, including Celtic Tiger, industrial schools, Biddies and the Bertie Bowl - described as "a humorously figurative description" for the now defunct proposal.

The official definition of the Dortspeak phenomenon is given as "a sometimes derided variety of Hiberno-English which attempts, mainly in its pronunciation of vowels, to appear sophisticated and cosmopolitan, leaning towards an imitationof the home counties accentof England, without muchsuccess".

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MSG (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 82.69.43.131
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dublin provinicialism is alive and well. It's the thing that Joyce hated about Dublin.

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Maidhc Ó G. (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 204.186.88.252
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Very quickly, and I may be go céart nó go bróna, is that Baile na Cliamh may be the "California" of Ireland. Perhaps I'm wrong, but, seems to readally accept so called ' cosmopolitan' ways to be included in the "higher fashion" of the rest of society. This isn't an accusation. Other Europian and American cities are much more guilty (If we can call them that.)
Let's face it. Fashion doesn't necessariarally affect the language as a whole culture. Look at New york or Rome or Paris.
The rest of the culture needs to take an affect on the rest of the language and we need to grow with her (the language) into the future.
I'm not sure of my phrasing of this. Does anyone get what I mean?!

-Maidhc.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 353
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Addendum. The Irish Independent and Sunday Independent are notorious for a very anti Irish Language and any form of nationalism editorial line.



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