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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through September 27, 2004 » Your assistance is required! « Previous Next »

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Diarmuid (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 220.253.55.175
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I was just wondering if u guys new any simple songs in Gaeilge. Im just a begginer and need some for my class as my teacher says there a good way to learn phrasing and pronunciation.

Go raibh maith agat

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 73
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 08:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

The national anthem:

Amhrán na bhFiann

Sinne Fianna Fáil
atá faoi gheall ag Éirinn
Buíon dár slua
Thar [toinn] do ráinig chugainn
Faoi mhóid bheith saor
Seantír ár sinsir feasta
Ní fhágfar faoin tíorán ná faoin tráill
Anois a théim sa bhearna bhaoil
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le [gunna-screách] ó lámhach na bpiléar
Seo libh [canaigí]
Amhrán na bhFiann


I'm not sure about the parts in square brackets:

1) Don't know why it isn't "thar thonnta"

2) "Gunna-scréach" is very Englishy

3) Not sure if that word is "Canaigí". When I hear it sung, it sounds like "Conig".

Whatever you do, don't search the net looking for the National Anthem, unless you like grammatical erros and misspellings.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 106
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I'm not sure the National Anthem counts as simple.

This is the chorus of a longer song written by Peadar Kearney

Sinne Fianna Fáil
A tá fé gheall ag Éirinn,
buion dár slua
Thar toinn do ráinig chugainn,
Fé mhóid bheith saor.
Sean tír ár sinsir feasta
Ní fhagfar fé'n tiorán ná fé'n tráil
Anocht a théam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le gunna scréach, faoi lámhach na bpiléar
Seo libh canaíg Amhrán na bhFiann.

The attentive reader will see that the Munster dialect has crept in again.


See also: http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/irish/index.asp?docID=825

However, I'd advise Diarmuid to get a CD of Childrens songs and learn from it. The text is usually given.

Try: Bliain na nAmhrán (http://www.futa-fata.com)
or Trup, Trup a chapallín (http://www.gael-linn.ie)

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 74
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, September 08, 2004 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

...grammar grammar grammar

What's "fé"? An alternative form of "faoi"?
What's the craic with "thar toinn"?

Is it:

Seantír ár sinsear feasta

or

Seantír ár sinsir fheasta ?

I think it's the first as I always hear that "f". Then again, you'll hear a lot of people mutilate the language.

"a théam"? "a théim" I presume.

"gunna scréach" = "a gun of screaming"?

"canaíg", is that a Munster form of "Canaigí"?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 108
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 04:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Thar toinn is because tonn is singular, a poetic way of saying from across the sea.

"Seantír ár sinsear" feasta because there is a pause between (Seantír ár sinsear) and (feasta)

>>a théam"? "a théim" I presume
You presume incorrectly. A théimid is meant.

Gunna scréach is how the original "Cannon's roar" was translated.

Remember, there was no standard grammar in 1907 when the song was written, and as far as I know translated. Nor in 1926 when the chorus was adpoted as the National Anthem.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 79
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 04:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Grammar is a fundamental part of a language, long before some-one tries to capture it and understand its every aspect and write a set of clear-cut rules!

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 110
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 04:51 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Yes. But standardisation is not. The dialects had/have different grammars.

Also, there is a certain amount of poetic license in songs and poems since metre is more important there than grammar.

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Fear_na_mbróg
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Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 80
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 04:54 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Overstand doth I.

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Antóin (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 159.134.180.113
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 06:53 am:   Edit Post Print Post

"fé" is in common use, both spoken and written.

Just because all constructions are not included in the caighdeán does not mean they are incorrect. The scholars who drafted the set of rules for the caighdeán never intended to have variations in the living language excluded when they were in common use.

Poetry, drama and song lyrics in many languages frequently deviate from formal usage. It is more the norm than the exception.

I believe there are forms of the Lord's Prayer in contemporary English but the version based on Elizabethan English is the one everyone prefers.

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M. Ó Muircheartaigh (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 212.44.42.82
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhiarmuid,

The simplest songs are children's songs and one of the simplest of these is 'Baidín Fheilimí' (Feilimí's litle boat). Two others, easily downloadable from the memory banks once learned, are: 'Beidh Aonach Amárach' and 'Trasna na dTonnta'. The words of all tthree are given below.

Is féidir leat an ceol a fháil ar téip nó dluthdiosca curtha amach ag RTE, 'Óró na Casadaigh - songs of our childhood', le Na Casadaigh. Bain taitneamh astu.

Báidín Fheilimí

Báidín Fheilimí ‘d’imigh go Gabhla
Báidín Fheilimí ‘s Feilimí ann
Báidín Fheilimí ‘d’imigh go Gabhla
Báidín Fheilimí ‘s Feilimí ann

Curfá (chorus)
Báidín bídeach, báidín beosach
Báidín bóidheach, Báidín Fheilimí
Báidín díreach, báidín deontach
Báidín Fheilimí ‘s Feilimí ann

Báidín Fheilimí ‘d’imigh go Toraigh
Báidín Fheilimí ‘s Feilimí ann
Báidín Fheilimí ‘d’imigh go Toraigh
Báidín Fheilimí ‘s Feilimí ann

Curfá

Báidín Fheilimí briseadh i dToraigh
Iasc ar bhord agus Feilimí ann
Báidín Fheilimí briseadh i dToraigh
Iasc ar bhord agus Feilimí ann


Beidh Aonach Amárach

Beidh aonach amárach i gContae an Chláir
Beidh aonach amárach i gContae an Chláir
Beidh aonach amárach i gContae an Chláir
Cén mhaith dom é? Ní bheidh mé ann

Curfá:
‘S a mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé
A mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé
A mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé

A mhuirnín ó, ná héiligh é

Níl tú a deich ná a haon déag fós
Níl tú a deich ná a haon déag fós
Níl tú a deich ná a haon déag fós
Nuair a bheidh tú trí déag beidh tú mor

Curfá:
‘S a mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé
A mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé
A mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé
A mhuirnín ó, ná héiligh é

B’fhearr liom féin mo ghréasaí bróg
B’fhearr liom féin mo ghréasaí bróg
B’fhearr liom féin mo ghréasaí bróg
Ná oifigeach airm faoi lásaí óir

Curfá:
‘S a mháithrín an ligfidh tú chun aonigh mé, [srl.]


Trasna na dTonnta

Curfá:
Trasna na dtonnta dul siar dul siar
Slán leis an uaigneas is slán leis an gcian
Geal é mo chroí agus geal í an ghrian
Geal bheith ag filleadh go hÉireann

Chonaic mé dhóthain de thíortha i gcéin
Ór agus airgead, saibhreas a’ tsaoil
Éiríonn an chroí ‘nam le breacadh an lae
‘S mé a’ druidim le dúthaigh mo mhuintir

Curfá:
Trasna na dtonnta dul siar dul siar
Slán leis an uaigneas is slán leis an gcian
Geal é mo chroí agus geal í an ghrian
Geal bheith ag filleadh go hÉireann

Muintir an Iarthar is iad cairde mo chroí
Fáilte is féile beidh romham ar gach taobh
Ar fhágaint an tsaoil seo is é a ghuím ar an Rí
Gur leosan a shínfear i gcill mé

Curfá:
Trasna na dtonnta dul siar dul siar
Slán leis an uaigneas is slán leis an gcian
Geal é mo chroí agus geal í an ghrian
Geal bheith ag filleadh go hÉireann

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Chris Dixon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 194.247.95.131
Posted on Thursday, September 09, 2004 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
There is a good selection of Irish songs on http://www.irishpage.com/songs/fly-song.htm
Slán beo!
Chris

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Chris Dixon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 194.247.95.129
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 06:46 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
I thought a few reflections might be interesting in view of Fear na mBróg and Aonghus's references to Amhrán na bhFiann.
Firstly, once upon a time (circa 1911) there was a song in English by Peader Kearney, Breandan Behan’s uncle, called “A Soldier’s Song”. And it went something like this:

We'll sing a song, a soldier's song
With cheering, rousing chorus
As round our blazing fires we throng,
The starry heavens o'er us;
Impatient for the coming fight,
And as we await the morning's light
Here in the silence of the night
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Soldiers are we, whose lives are pledged to Ireland
Some have come from a land beyond the waves.
Sworn to be free, no more our ancient sireland
Shall shelter the despot or the slave;
Tonight we man the bearna baoghal
In Erin's cause, come woe or weal;
'Mid cannon's roar and rifle's peal
We'll chant a soldier's song.

In valley green or towering crag
Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag
That's proudly floating o'er us,
We're children of a fighting race
That never yet has known disgrace,
And as we march the foe to face,
We'll chant a soldier's song.

Sons of the Gael! Men of the Pale!
The long watched day is breaking;
The serried ranks of Innisfail
Shall set the tyrant quaking.
Our camp fires now are burning low;
See in the east a silv'ry glow,
Out yonder waits the Saxon foe,
So chant a soldier's song.

(Okay so you have to supply your own music!)

This became a popular marching song among the Volunteers over the next 10-15 troubled years.
The earliest Gaeilge translation of the song, published in Irish Freedom in 1912 along with the original was:

Seo dhíbh, a chairde, duan óglaigh,
Cathréimeach, bríomar, ceolmhar,
Ar dtinte cnámh go buacach táid,
's an spéir go min réaltógach.
Is fonnmhar faobhrach sinn chun gleo,
'S go tiúnmhar glé roimh thíocht don ló,
Faoi chiúas caomh na hoíche ar seol,
Seo libh, canaig Amhrán na bhFiann.

Sinne laochra Fáil, a tá faoi gheallag Éireann,
Buion dár slua thar toinn do ráinig chugainn,
Faoi mhóid bheith saor.
Sean tír ár sinsear feasta,
Ní fhágfar faoin tíorán ná faoin thráill.
Anocht a théam sa bhear na baoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil,
Le guna scréach, faoi lámhach na bpiléar,
Seo libh canáig amhrán na bhFiann.

Cois bánta reidhe, ar arda sléibhe
Ba bhuach ár sinsear romhainn,
Ag lámhach go tréan fa'n sár-bhrat sein,
Atá thuas sa ghaoith go seolta:
Ba dhúchas riamh d'ar gcine cháidh
Gan iompáil siar ó imirt air,
'Siul libh canaig Amhrán na bhFiann.

A Bhuíon nach fann d'fhuil Gaeil is Gall,
Sinn breachadh lae na saoirse,
Tá scéimhle 's scanradh i gcroíthr namhad,
Roimh ranganna laochra ár dtíre;
Ar dtínte is tréith gan spréach anois,
Sin luisne ghlé san spéir anoir,
'S an bíobha i raon na bpiléar agaibh:
Seo libh, canaig Amhrán na bhFiann.

Then, as another song goes “after truce and treaty and the parting of the ways”, the 26 counties adopted as their national anthem, under the name of Amhrán na bhFiann, the chorus from another translation of the same song:

Sinnne Fianna Fáil atá fé gheall ag Éirinn,
Buion dár slua thar toinn do ráinig chugainn
Fémhóid bheith saor.
Seantír ár sinsir feasta
Ní fhagfar fé'n tiorán ná fé'n tráil.
Anocht a théam sa bhearna bhaoil,
Le gean ar Ghaeil chun báis nó saoil
Le guna screach fé lámhach na bpiléar,
Seo libh, canaídh Amhrán na bhFiann.

I hope outling this brief history of the song clarifies why I Fear na mBróg is quite right to see Anglicisms in some of the phrases he refers to. That sort of thing is not uncommon in translation from English to Irish - even in good translation.
I hope it also clarifies why Aonghus quite rightly points out that we will see the Munster influence in the "standard" translation of the chorus. Many speakers from elsewhere in the island suggest that the Munster dialect has overly influencded the caighdeán oifigiúil as a whole... but of course that is another matter!
Apologies for any typos that may have crept into the Gaeilge lyrics that I give. My Irish is not as good as I'd like it to be!
Slán beo!
Chris

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 89
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Jesus I hate reading crappy Gaeilge. I don't so much mind reading crappy English, where people write "it's" as "its", and use apostraphes in the plurals "apple's"... it doesn't particulary bothered me because I'm "confident" with my English and no amount of reading crappy English will get me questioning my own grammar and spelling.

I've never been fully immersed in Irish, I've only ever learned it in classrooms in school, but still I've no problems sticking séimhithe where they should be, urúithe where they should be, fadas where they should be. But then you see people who are actually fluent in Irish and you see them making the stupid silly mistakes that a beginner like me has down to a T.

For instance, in the post that preceeds this one, I was wondering what that word is in:

Seo libh, X Amhrán na bhFiann

so I looked through the song.

1st occurrence: canaig
2nd occurrence: canáig
3rd occurrence: canaig
4th occurrence: canaídh


Would I be write in saying that just like in English, where you have poorly literate people who write the likes of "He's taking the apple's", you also have the likes of that in Gaeilge? That would be understandable. But then mistakes in the spoken language, what the hell is the story with that?! For instance, that sign I mentioned a while ago which read:

Galfchúrsa Chaisleán an Ghráisneach

Do people in the Gaeltachtaí actually speak like that?! I hope not, because I'm not even fluent enough to follow the news, but I've got all these details down.

The Irish language is getting butchered on signs throughout Ireland. It looks like people just whip out a dictionary and look-up:

Grange Castle Golf Course

Gráinseach Caisléan Galf Cúrsa

And then think to themselves, "Irish is backwards to English, isn't it?", and then come out with bullshit the likes of:

Galfchúrsa Chailseán an Ghráineach

I searched the net looking for stories written in Irish there yesterday and I found one site that had a few stories on it. I opened one of the pages and was faced with no less than a butchery of the Irish language. I looked up an encyclopedia today for "Gaeltacht" and it turns out that we have "Gaelscolana" in Ireland. What the hell are they?!

AAAAAAaaaaaaaaaahhhhh

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 124
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 09:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

FnaB - Ná bac na mionnaí móra, agus tóg an saol níos réidhe.

Agus tabhair faoi ndeara go raibh leaganacha éagsúla de Amhrán na bhFiann i gceist leis an méid thuas, agus sa bharr ar sin, roinnt mionbhotún cló. An bhfuil tú ag rá nach dtarlaíonn a leithéidí duitse riamh?

Maidir liom fhéin, tá caint flúirseach agam; ach is beag taithí atá agam bheith ag scríobh. Mar sin, bíonn botúin sa mhéid a scríobhann mé.

Maidir le "Grange" is focal Normánnach é; Gráinseach an leagan gaeilge, agus tá an cheart agat mar gheall ar an tuiseal Ginideach cruinn.

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Chris Dixon (Unregistered Guest)
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Posted From: 194.247.95.131
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
Spelling and spelling conventions... in the same line as my previous post, we should keep in mind that Irish spelling has evolved, and indeed been officially revised, since the early years of the last century.
Looking back at my source text for the 1912 edition of Amhrán na bhFiann (an old text without the clearest of typefaces), it's not clear if there is a fada on the "i" of "canaig" in occurrences 1, 2 and 4. There is clearly a fada on the "a" of "canáig" in occurrence 3. A shift which could easily be explained as a type-setting error if "canaig" should be "canaíg" - but I hadn't enough confidence in my Irish to put (sic) after any or all of these variants.
I also had my doubts about "'Siul libh" at the end of verse 3 of the 1912 translation, but had insufficient confidence in my Irish to put (sic) there either.
The spelling "canaídh", which is from a 1926 text, given at the time as the official version adopted as the anthem, is exactly as it appears in the source.
Le meas,
Chris

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Fear_na_mbróg
Member
Username: Fear_na_mbróg

Post Number: 93
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Friday, September 10, 2004 - 09:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Go fóill, cuireann sé isteach orm. An teanga nach féidir liom í a labhairt le daoine i m'áit chonaithe, tá sí á mhilleadh ar fud na háite, ar fhógraí, sa pháipéar nuachta, gach áit!



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