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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2004 (July-September) » Archive through July 15, 2004 » Kevin v Caoimhin « Previous Next »

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D (213.190.149.122 - 213.190.149.122)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 06:47 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Hi
I would like to know how a name like Caoimhin (cuiveen)could eventually come to English as Kevin? and the same for Connor and Concubhair (cruhoor)? are they prounciation from different dialects that we use as the Anglicised forms today?

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Fear na mBróg (159.134.102.56 - 159.134.102.56)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 08:48 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Well, one observation I've made: A lot of English names come from turning long a's into flat a's, which is exactly what they do in the Ulster dialect.

Consider how the Ulsterers prounounce:


áitiúil

then consider:

Tomás -> Thomas
Áine -> Enya

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D (213.190.149.122 - 213.190.149.122)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Enya actually comes from Eithne! it is stramge how they get that though!
and guttcha from gabh anseo??!! Those Northeners!

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Pádraig (4.152.0.133 - 4.152.0.133)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Print Post

It's always seemed to me that the Angliciztion of Irish names was more of an American phenomenom than a British one. Forgive my chauvanism here, but I think most Yanks tend to take something like Caoimhin, throw away all the silent letters, and say "now say that again so I can write it down." Voila, Kevin. As for the fadas -- gone also. The intake personnel at Ellis Island were notorious for this. When I began to learn Irish, I was suprised to discover the differences in spelling of such names as Corrigan, Kerrigan, O'Neill, Macmonagal, and on and on.

P.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Ah, but the English have had longer to do it in.

Kevin is a fairly common name in Ireland.

The original old Irish is Caoimhghin - well/beautifully born.

The things is that these names are ancient, so the way they were pronounced in Irish may have been very different at the time they were Anglicised to the way they are pronounced in Irish now.

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PAD (12.75.180.224 - 12.75.180.224)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Kevin became a popular name in the US within the last 50 years or so and the change in pronunciation was already in effect. And it was the English who put their interpretation of what they heard on the place names in Ireland. I don't think Americans had a very great influence on Irish speech until our movies became widely shown there.


s


s

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (81.230.10.49 - 81.230.10.49)
Posted on Tuesday, June 29, 2004 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

what about Aonghus - Aengus - Oengus

Is the first old irish and the others modern irish (tho they dont seem to confrom to the slender with slender rule)?

Which is considered most 'correct' today or are they equally acceptable?


About Conchobhar: afaik when in the middle of a word 'ch' and 'bh' are silent so that leaves the letters c-o-n-o-a-r...and since the stress is on the first syllable and the second syllable has just short vowels they are hardly pronounced...thus the pronouncation becomes 'CON-r'

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 04:16 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I believe the commonest old Irish spelling is Oengus.

Common modern spellings (in Irish) are Aonghus and Aengus. I think Oe and Ae are diphthongs which count as broad.

Oengus is rare - I've never met one!

Names whether personal or place are usually outside the normal rules of a language simply because they go back a long, long time.

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Jonas (128.214.107.119 - 128.214.107.119)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:27 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Oengus definitely comes across as Old Irish, I'd say that Aonghus is the most common by far today. I've never heard of any living Oengus or Aengus.
"Oe" is not used in modern Irish - "ae" is used and is broad, but it's not a diphthong.

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Print Post

I know a couple of (Irish speaking) Aengus'

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Cormac Ó Donnaile (212.209.194.26 - 212.209.194.26)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Print Post

then you have Dún Aengus on the aran islands...

I'm thinking about this as a possible name for my son due in 1 and a half weeks :)

my girlfriend prefers 'aengus' to 'aonghus' as the latter looks a bit weird to her (she's swedish)...i like em both equally...so we'll prolly choose 'aengus'...i just wanted to make sure it was correct irish gaeilge

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Jonas (128.214.107.119 - 128.214.107.119)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Äh, säg åt din flickvän att Aonghus är lika naturligt som Sven! :-)

Big congratiulations in advance!!

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Aonghus (62.77.191.130 - 62.77.191.130)
Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Print Post

But then, Dún Aonghusa is written Dún Aonghusa in Irish.

But Aengus is probably easier for non Irish speaker to pronounce.

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Luke Fleeman (67.181.208.145 - 67.181.208.145)
Posted on Sunday, July 11, 2004 - 03:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

As Padraig said, a number of people coming to America had their names changed, whether they wanted to or not. Caoimhin and other names were often butchered by the intake, mostly for convenience on their part or lack of care. Most would not care if they greatly changed a name, because there was little reason not to. This is often the reason that americans of Irish descent(such as myself) have a hard time tracking down ancestry. My family name went from Pléamonn to Fleeman. My maternal family name had the 'O' dropped from it.

So it is not really a matter of influence from one language to another, as a matter of uncaring, overworked intake workers trying to process millions of Irish immigrants, with little care for accuracy.



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