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The Daltaí Boards » Archive: 1999-2004 » 2002 (January-June) » Tú or tusa? sé or seisan? etc. « Previous Next »

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Dori Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.195)
Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A chairde,
I am a new student working with Mícheál Ó Siadhail's
"Learning Irish". Chapter 2 does not seem to explain the difference between tú and tusa, sí and sise, muid and muide, and so forth. This seems to be a fundamental point of grammar which I'd like to grasp before I move on.
Also, how about the Irish spelling for Doreen or Dori?
Thank you for your help. Dori

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Larry (host213-122-192-35.in-addr.btopenworld.com - 213.122.192.35)
Posted on Monday, May 13, 2002 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dori, a chara,

Tusa is the emphatic form of tú. Unlike English, you add these special endings to the word to add stress. For example, An bhfuil tusa pósta? (Are YOU [not, for example, John] married?). I hope that makes it clearer??

I'm afraid that I can't help with the Irish equivalent of Doreen though...

Le meas,
Larry.

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Seosamh Mac Bhloscaidh (nyf-ny2-124.rasserver.net - 207.93.56.124)
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 01:00 am:   Edit Post Print Post

Doreen is "Dóirín" in Irish. That's already a diminutive, but I don't see why you couldn't use "Dóirí" is you wish.

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.199)
Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2002 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Larry, a chara,
Thank you. I'm clear on that point now. However, now I'm stuck on 'ansin' or 'ann'. I thought I understood that 'ansin' was used to denote a particular place and that 'ann' was used to indicate, say, existence - 'Tá fear ansin', 'A man is there (at that place) vs 'Tá fear ann', 'There is a man' or 'A man exists'. However,my book gives the following examples: 'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?', 'Is there anyone there?' and 'Níl duine ar bith ann anois', 'There isn't anybody there now.' In these examples, isn't 'there' being used to indicate a place?

Seosamh,
Thank you for your response. I think I'll go with Dóirín.

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Al Evans (tbtm.org - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Thursday, May 16, 2002 - 10:56 am:   Edit Post Print Post

However,my book gives the following examples: 'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?', 'Is there anyone there?' and 'N’l duine ar bith ann anois', 'There isn't anybody there now.' In these examples, isn't 'there' being used to indicate a place?

No more in Irish than in English -- where is the "there" in "is anyone there?" In both Irish and English, you need a non-specific adverb just to hold the (unspecified) place.

By contrast, this isn't the case in some other languages. For example, in French you say, "Il y a quelqu'un?" (or more commonly, just "Y a quelqu'un?") -- "Is there anybody?"

Hope this helps -- I don't know much, but I do know that:-)

Al Evans

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.203)
Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Al,
I have chased this around my brain for a few days now, and at the risk of appearing impossibly dense, I don't see it.
If the statement is made, 'Tá teach ansin' (The house is there) followed by the question, 'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?' (Is there anyone there?), how is the 'there' in the question any more unspecified than in the statement?
Dóirín

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Dennis Leyden (148.charlotte-22rh16rt.nc.dial-access.att.net - 12.93.75.148)
Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

Dóirín,

I don't know if this helps (or if it is correct!), but in the Dillon & Ó Cróinín "Teach Yourself Irish" text, they say that ann means "in it/there" while ansin (they spell it ansan but it seems to be the same word) is more of a demonstrative pronoun "there/then". Thus 'Tá teach ansin' would mean that "The house is (over) there", while 'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?' would mean "Is there anyone IN there?"

Dennis Leyden (or should I style myself Donncha Ó Loideain?!)

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James (wcs3.norfolk.nipr.mil - 198.26.132.99)
Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Print Post

A Dhóirín,

If you look at section 2, paragraph vi. As I understand/interpret that information Tá is the instrumental factor involved. If a sentence with Tá does not contain an adjective or adverb of place we use ann. All other cases utilizing Tá use ansin.

'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?' There is no Tá in this sentence so we use ann.

'Tá teach ansin.' Tá is present and, at least as I understand the grammar, it is an adverbial phrase (The house is there) so we use ansin.

What is critically important for you to know, however, is that I am a beginning self-study student like you so don't hang a ton of faith on what I've just written! I could be completely off the mark! What I have written is my conclusion after muddling through the same chapter just a few months ago myself.

Hope I'm right and hope it helps.

Le meas,

James

P.S. This is what I DON'T like about O'Siadhal--he's terribly short in his explanations and assumes a certain level of grammatical proficiency on the part of the reader. As a result, he leaves us wondering (and wandering) in many cases.

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Al Evans (tbtm.org - 208.188.101.145)
Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Print Post

[Doreen]
I have chased this around my brain for a few days now, and at the risk of appearing impossibly dense, I don't see it.
If the statement is made, 'Tá teach ansin' (The house is there) followed by the question, 'An bhfuil duine ar bith ann?' (Is there anyone there?), how is the 'there' in the question any more unspecified than in the statement?


Do not be alarmed! :-)

If you inspect English closely, you'll find plenty of things that just don't appear to make a lick of sense. ALL human languages are like that. Though I'm just learning Gaeilge, I'm fluent in French and slightly less so in Russian. I can assure you both these language contain neart rudaí that make it obvious languages are evolved, not designed. And they become perfectly natural -- when you've used the language enough, you can't see how it could be any other way!

[Later on, James says...]
This is what I DON'T like about O'Siadhal--he's terribly short in his explanations and assumes a certain level of grammatical proficiency on the part of the reader. As a result, he leaves us wondering (and wandering) in many cases.

I like his holographic approach, where every word is there for a reason, with enough blanks in the pattern that you really have to work to fill them in. But I'm probably a masochist in my learning taste.

Al Evans

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Doreen Ford Bruscell (209.1.121.195)
Posted on Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Print Post

A Chairde,
Thank you Dennis, James & Al. I'm someplace between grasping this and just allowing it to be what it is for awhile. It's comforting to know that others have muddled through this same lesson. However, if I get all the way to Lesson 13 and am still asking myself the same question (Oh, please let me get it before then) I'm sure you'll hear from me again on this point.
One of my greatest challenges is that I proofread everything and having discovered at least one blatant transposition and a few other inconsistencies, I get all caught up in whether it's me or the book!
I can see that I have many years of study ahead of me and am exceedingly grateful that this site exists.
Thanks again,
Dóirín

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