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Ceist faoin aimsir fhoirfe, question about the perfect
Posted: 12 January 2016 03:19 PM   Ignore ]  
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Dia dhaoibh, a chairde.
 
I’ve read on the Gramadach na Gaeilge that a perfective tense exists in Irish, which is formed by
 
+ object + verbal adjective + ag + subject
 
eg. Tá an bord briste agam, which would translate to I have broken the table/ the table was broken by me.
But GnaG is the only source I have seen such a structure claimed to be a perfect tense and I would understand this sentence just as I have the broken table (which has been mentioned earlier, and which might have been broken for long time by somebody else entirely). Would it really also be used the same way as English I have broken…?
 
Both English language Wikipedia and Polish An Ghaeilge by Aidan Doyle and Edmund Gussmann claim that Irish does not have a separate past or present perfect tense, and it forms perfective claims using tar éis or i ndiaidh, GnaG also desribes it.
 
Examples from An Ghaeilge (Ceacht 22, p. 174):
 
Táim tar éis an obair a dhéanamh. (I have done the work)
An bhfuil sibh tar éis bualadh leo? (Have you met them?)
Cé atá tar éis an chistin a ghlanadh? (Who has cleaned the kitchen?)
Níl siad tar éis dul ann. (They haven’t gone there)
 
Is the bí + obj. + vadj. + ag mistake in the GnaG or is it a dialectal, or maybe new learners’ (Béarlachas) thing?

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Posted: 12 January 2016 03:51 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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silmeth - 12 January 2016 03:19 PM

Dia dhaoibh, a chairde.
 
I’ve read on the Gramadach na Gaeilge that a perfective tense exists in Irish, which is formed by
 
+ object + verbal adjective + ag + subject
 
eg. Tá an bord briste agam, which would translate to I have broken the table/ the table was broken by me.
But GnaG is the only source I have seen such a structure claimed to be a perfect tense and I would understand this sentence just as I have the broken table (which has been mentioned earlier, and which might have been broken for long time by somebody else entirely)]

No, “briste” is predicative here, not attributive.
I have the table broken / I have broken the table
Compare with feminine nouns: Tá an fhuinneog briste (not: bhriste) agam.

Would it really also be used the same way as English I have broken…?

No, its use is much more restricted.
It’s resultative only. The result of an action is focussed, (The table is broken and it was me who did it.)

 
Both English language Wikipedia and Polish An Ghaeilge by Aidan Doyle and Edmund Gussmann claim that Irish does not have a separate past or present perfect tense, and it forms perfective claims using tar éis or i ndiadh, GnaG also desribes it.
 
Examples from An Ghaeilge (Ceacht 22, p. 174):
 
Táim tar éis an obair a dhéanamh. (I have done the work)
An bhfuil sibh tar éis bualadh leo? (Have you met them?)
Cé atá tar éis an chistin a ghlanadh? (Who has cleaned the kitchen?)
Níl siad tar éis dul ann. (They haven’t gone there)
 

Yes. Here recent past is focussed.

Is the bí + obj. + vadj. + ag mistake

It’s no mistake.

in the GnaG

http://www.scriobh.ie/ScriobhIe/Media/Graimear Gaeilge na mBraithre Criostai_Eag1999.pdf

14.12 Na haimsirí foirfe Tá dhá chineál d’aimsirí foirfe ann, cinn ina bhfuil an t-ainm
briathartha agus cinn eile ina bhfuil an aidiacht bhriathartha. Tá sraith d’aimsirí foirfe ag
freagairt do na haimsirí simplí i ngach ceann den dá chineál. Cuireann na haimsirí foirfe in iúl
an ngníomhú a bheith críochnaithe go díreach, nó uair éigin, roimh an am a léiríonn an
briathar cúnta:
•(leis ainm briathartha): tá Pól tar éis an doras a dhúnadh
•(leis an aidiacht bhriathartha): tá an doras dúnta ag Pól.
Ní hionann brí don dá abairt thuas. Sa chéad cheann tráchtar ar an ngníomh a rinne Pól ar an doras; sa dara ceann tráchtar ar
staid an dorais de bharr ghníomh Phóil.
Tá sraith d’aimsirí leanúnacha foirfe (leis an ainm briathartha) ann freisin (18.21): tá mé tar
éis bheith ag léamh an fhógra.

or is it a dialectal,

In Ulster it is confined to transitive verbs.

or maybe new learners’ (Béarlachas) thing?

It would be Béarlachas to overuse it and it would be Béarlachas not to use it at all. wink

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Posted: 12 January 2016 04:01 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Labhrás - 12 January 2016 03:51 PM

No, “briste” is predicative here, not attributive.
I have the table broken / I have broken the table
Compare with female nouns: Tá an fhuinneog briste (not: bhriste) agam.

Oh, feminine example makes perfect sense. GRMA. smile
 
Would one avoid ambiguity in the masculine example in any way? Eg. by saying tá an bord briste agam with one stress pattern when wanting to express that he has the bord briste, and with a different one when wanting to say that the bord has been briste by him? Or by using some other phrase to express possession?

Labhrás - 12 January 2016 03:51 PM

It’s no mistake.

(…)

It would be Béarlachas to overuse it and it would be Béarlachas not to use it at all. wink

OK, thanks again, I’ll try to keep it in mind. smile

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Posted: 24 January 2016 12:09 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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As far as I know there’s no way to specifically avoid such ambiguity other than context, or using another construction like the ones you list such as “táim tar éis an bord a bhriseadh”, but this tends to convey (although not necessarily, as I understand it) that the action just happened.  In my experience, the simple past is more used in Irish and, as Labhrás points out, the use of the verbal adjective is reserved more to focus on the result.  Translating it as “I have broken the table” is correct in a sense, but really “the table was/is broken by me” is closer, if not quite as elegant.  If you want to say you broke the table, just say “bhris mé an bord”. wink

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