Daltai na Gaeilge
Username: Password:
Remember Me? forgot password?
   
 
Verbal noun prepositional (indirect) object pronoun syntax
Posted: 29 November 2015 10:48 AM   Ignore ]  
Comhalta
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  6
Joined  2015-11-25

Dia daoibh a chairde, a ghaeilgeoirí!

Please bear with me while I give the background to my question:

In an exercise on Duolingo, the following sentence appeared:

Ni maith liom é a ghlaoch

with the translation “I don’t like to call him”.

I was not sure that this Irish sentence was correct and, on looking at the discussion for the exercise, I saw this exchange:

A: Wouldn’t air need to be in here somewhere?
B: The é part of air is already present before the infinitive-type verbal noun, so I’d expect
Ní maith liom é a ghlaoch ar.

In response to B’s post I wrote:

Me: Using the “glaoigh ar” construction, wouldn’t you say “Ní maith liom glaoch air”?

and gave this example from sess.ie

Úsáid ainm an dalta chun glaoch air/uirthi.

B replied referencing “Gramadach na Gaeilge” (GnaG) on nualeargais.ie and quoting from the section concerning the direct object:

B: When the direct object of an infinitive-type verbal noun is a pronoun, it notes that:

“nothing changes in the clause form, the pronoun simply comes before the preposition a.”

B also asked:

B: Do you know of a grammatical source that states that a direct object of a phrasal verb’s infinitive-type verbal noun would be embedded in the phrasal verb’s preposition?

And I replied that I do not think the object in this kind of construction is the direct object as discussed by the GnaG author.

I cited various examples, comparing the direct object usage with the prepositional (indirect) object usage but B, not altogether convinced, brought up the distinction between phrasal constructions and non-phrasal - simple verb + preposition - constructions.

I argued that the surface structure is the same and that what really matters is whether, in Irish, they behave the same syntactically.

B replied:

B: They do indeed have the same surface structure, but I’d like to find confirmation that both phrasal verbs and non-phrasal verbs with the same surface structure are treated in the same way regarding a direct object pronoun of an infinitive-type verbal noun.

I could only respond with further examples. And, there stands the discussion so far.

I would appreciate the opinions of more experienced and knowledgeable people than myself and, if anyone can give me a reference to a good treatment of the subject, available on line, that would be excellent.

Profile
 
Posted: 29 November 2015 01:15 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Comhalta
RankRank
Total Posts:  182
Joined  2011-11-03

The verb here is glaoigh ar dhuine = call someone, glaoigh air = call him
So, there is no direct object but only a prepositional object: ar dhuine
It doesn’t matter whether a direct object occurs in English or not.


as a verbal noun: glaoch ar dhuine = to call someone, glaoch air = to call him
or: glaoch a chur ar dhuine, glaoch a chur air


You can use a direct object with glaoigh/glaoch, e.g. duine a ghlaoch chun agallaimh = to call someone for an interview
Or with a pronoun: é a ghlaoch chun agallaimh = to call him for an interview
But usually ar is used.


And you certainly don’t use both:
é a ghlaoch ar is wrong,
A little bit more grammatically correct: é a ghlaoch air, but still idiomatically wrong wink
´

So either é a ghlaoch  (to call him, to summon him for something)
or (more common in most meanings of “call”) glaoch air

Profile
 
Posted: 29 November 2015 02:25 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Comhalta
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  6
Joined  2015-11-25

Hi Labhrás.


Thanks for your input.


So, you agree that my suggestion “Ní maith liom glaoch air” is the correct usage of “glaoigh ar” in this sentence type.


And, would you agree that it does not matter whether the verb + preposition forms a phrasal unit (as with “glaoigh ar”) or not, but rather, it is the prepositional (indirect) object nature that determines the syntax?


Take this sentence I found when looking for examples of usage:

Tá orthu cuntas gearr a scríobh faoi, ag úsáid na bhfocal céanna atá i gCuid A le cuidiú leo
TEG(page 4)


I would see “scríobh faoi” as a non-phrasal instance (merely “scríobh” + preposition) whereas “cuidiú leo” (“cuidigh le”) is phrasal (see entries for “write” and “help” in NEID) yet both exhibit the same syntax (VN + prepositional pronoun).


NOTE: I have looked again at the GnaG page that B referred me to and quoted from. I found that, following the section on direct objects with the verbal noun, it goes on to talk about indirect objects and says this:

with an indirect object
Just the opposite as in German, the indirect object in Irish is always following the verbal noun. The preposition a = to is not used.
Indirect objects are dative objects, in Irish always introduced with a preposition  [my bold]

This would seem to support my analysis.


Still, if I could refer to some “authoratative” work that provides a definitive statement on the subject, it would help.
Does anyone know if there is anything on this topic in Gramadach gan Stró, for example.?

Profile
 
Posted: 29 November 2015 07:11 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Comhalta
RankRank
Total Posts:  182
Joined  2011-11-03
Learphollach - 29 November 2015 02:25 PM

So, you agree that my suggestion “Ní maith liom glaoch air” is the correct usage of “glaoigh ar” in this sentence type.


And, would you agree that it does not matter whether the verb + preposition forms a phrasal unit (as with “glaoigh ar”) or not, but rather, it is the prepositional (indirect) object nature that determines the syntax?

Yes. There aren’t many differences between so called phrasal verbs and normal prepositional phrases as far as I know.  And this is certainly not one of them.

Profile
 
Posted: 02 December 2015 09:11 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Comhalta
Rank
Total Posts:  69
Joined  2011-10-27

Just to add my agreemen that it should be ‘ní maith liom glaoch air’  (or. of course,  ‘ní maith liom bheith ag glaoch air’  depending on context).

Profile
 
Posted: 02 December 2015 09:52 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Comhalta
Avatar
Rank
Total Posts:  6
Joined  2015-11-25

Ceart go leor. GRMA.

Profile