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air sin / ar sin
Posted: 16 December 2011 09:00 PM   Ignore ]  
Comhalta
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Dia daoibh a cairde. I found the following sentence in a book: “an bhfuil sé phunt air sin?”. My doubt is about the preposition: why “air” instead of “ar”?
go raibh maith agaibh

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Posted: 16 December 2011 10:33 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Comhalta
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“Air sin” is used because it is “ar+é sin”, and since “ar+é” = “air”, ar+é sin = air sin.
I think “ar sin” would be wrong.

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Posted: 17 December 2011 05:21 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Comhalta
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thanks Comhalta. I’m gradually understanding the logics of the language. I do like this forum

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Posted: 17 December 2011 05:36 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Comhalta
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You’re welcome.
Btw, “comhalta” isn’t my nickname, it only means “Member”. My nickname is “Lughaidh” wink

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Posted: 17 December 2011 06:20 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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ceart go leor a Lughaidh. slan agat

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Posted: 20 December 2011 04:49 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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I agree with Lughaidh’s explanation of the use of “air” rather than “ar” with “sin”.

I have often thought of the same issue and I am not sure that “ar” is always wrong.  “Sin” in Ó Dónaill’s Irish-English dictionary is described as a “demonstrative pronoun”, an adjective, and an adverb.  If it is a pronoun then “ar sin” would not be wrong.  Language at ground level is always changing unless the education system and the media drill the population in the “correct”  grin standard usage.  Irish doesn’t have any such authority governing it.  Dialects are free to develop their own distinctive variations and woe betide any enthusiastic adherent to An Caighdeán Oifigiúil / The Officiial Standard—like me—to dare suggest that what is said in Baile i mBéal na Síne might not be “good Irish”.  If descriptive grammar is to prevail then “tá sé fear” is fine and “an chopail” and “an tuiseal ginideach” are a thing of the past.  Me? I follow Na Bráithre, An Caighdeán Oifigiúil, and Mac Congáil.

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Posted: 20 December 2011 06:58 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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I have often thought of the same issue and I am not sure that “ar” is always wrong.  “Sin” in Ó Dónaill’s Irish-English dictionary is described as a “demonstrative pronoun”, an adjective, and an adverb.  If it is a pronoun then “ar sin” would not be wrong.

Yes but I don’t think I’ve ever seen “ar sin” written except by beginners. Maybe “sin” can’t be used directly after “ar” and that’s all.

Language at ground level is always changing unless the education system and the media drill the population in the “correct”  grin standard usage.  Irish doesn’t have any such authority governing it. 

Irish isn’t taught in schools?

Dialects are free to develop their own distinctive variations

in speech there’s no difference between “ar” and “air” anyway so you can’t know if someone says “ar sin” or “air sin”. But normally, people always write “air sin”.

and woe betide any enthusiastic adherent to An Caighdeán Oifigiúil / The Officiial Standard—like me—to dare suggest that what is said in Baile i mBéal na Síne might not be “good Irish”.  If descriptive grammar is to prevail then “tá sé fear” is fine

only beginners say “tá sé fear” and beginners don’t create new rules for the language (nor for any language). When all native speakers say “tá sé fear”, then it may become a new rule but I don’t think it ever happens nowadays… Nobody would write a descriptive grammar of beginners’ speech smile

and “an chopail” and “an tuiseal ginideach” are a thing of the past.

 

in Gaeltacht speech (at least C and U), the genitive case is becoming rarer now, I mean, it is used in less situations than in the standard grammar. And it may be replaced by the lenition alone, in Ulster for instance (people may say “hata an fhear”).

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Posted: 20 December 2011 07:17 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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An Caighdeàn Oifigiùil and the Bràithre are far more democratic than would be a queen’s Irish (sorry for the contradiction in terms). I do believe that every single Irish dialect is good Irish in its own. Right now I’m following the Buntùs Cainte which gives an excellent introduction to the language, but in the meantime I’m reading Irish Dialects Past and Present by T. O’Rahilly, a still fascinating work though written in the eighties. Thank you for you comment, Jeaicìn.

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Posted: 20 December 2011 08:39 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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An Caighdeàn Oifigiùil and the Bràithre are far more democratic than would be a queen’s Irish

well, in theory they are democratic, but actually there are many things that people never write and that editors etc don’t accept, although they are common in Gaeltacht Irish. Maybe we should say that the CO is democratic but people aren’t grin They think that only what is in the CO and in the Bràithre is allowed… although the CO book does say that these rules shouldn’t replace Gaeltacht Irish!

I do believe that every single Irish dialect is good Irish in its own.

YES, every single Gaeltacht dialect.

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Agus is í Gaeilg Ghaoth Dobhair is binne

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Posted: 20 December 2011 09:05 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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we should say that the CO is democratic but people aren’t

Sin é. Aineolas an deacracht is mó, agus easpa tuisceana.

Agus, gan amhras, easpa cuir síos údarásach ar na canúintí chun cabhrú le heagarthóirí.

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