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Can anyone help with these grammer questions?
Posted: 08 November 2011 06:12 PM   Ignore ]  
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I’m hoping that somebody can help me with a few Grammer queries that have been bugging me. I will try to keep it simple.

1.Is the genitive of ‘Teanga’ unchanged (Teanga) or does it become ‘Teangan’? I have seen both written.

2.This query is related to the indirect particle ‘go’ and the relative pronoun ‘a’

I understand how both work generally speaking :

Dúirt sí go raibh sí ann. (indirect speech)

Seo í an bhean a raibh a mac san ospidéal. (indirect relative pronoun)

My query is in relation to ‘questions’. I have seen questions written using both the above particles :

Cén fáth go raibh sí ann?/ Cén fáth go ndúirt sí é?

Cén fáth a raibh sí ann?/ Cén fáth a ndúirt sí é?

Is this just a common error or can both particles be interchanged this way?

 

3.
Gender in identifying

Is í an Ghaeilge an t-ábhar is fearr liom.

The í is referring to ‘Gaeilge’, but why is it not written : Is é an Ghaeilge an t-ábhar is fearr liom , ‘e’ referring to ‘ábhar’.

The question would be : Cad é an t-ábhar is fearr leat?

Why in the response does one noun get precedence over the other in terms of the pronoun identified. I’m sure this is probably a syntax thing.

Would the gender reference continue into subsequent sentences?
Cad é an t-abhar is fearr leat? Is í an Ghaeilge an t-ábhar is fearr liom. Tá sí suimiúil. Is aoibhinn liom í.
???

4.
I have seen ‘ag imirt iomána’ and ‘ag imirt iománaíochta’ written. I have been told ‘iomána’ is correct. Where would one use the genitive of the noun ‘iomanaíocht’ (iománaíochta) over the verbal noun?


Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Best,

Jay

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Posted: 08 November 2011 07:33 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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1.Is the genitive of ‘Teanga’ unchanged (Teanga) or does it become ‘Teangan’? I have seen both written.


teanga - ainmfhocal teanga [ainmneach uatha]  (nominative singular)
teanga [ginideach uatha] genitive singular
teangacha [ainmneach iolra] nominative plural
teangacha [ginideach iolra] genitive plural

This information was obtained at An Foclóir Beag -  http://193.1.97.44/scripts/focweb/Exe/focloir.exe

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Posted: 08 November 2011 08:00 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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teanga - nominative singular

teangacha - nominative plural

teangan - genitive singular

teangain - dative singular


Dineen

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Posted: 09 November 2011 06:09 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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I’m hoping that somebody can help me with a few Grammer queries that have been bugging me. I will try to keep it simple.

1.Is the genitive of ‘Teanga’ unchanged (Teanga) or does it become ‘Teangan’? I have seen both written.

“Teangan” is the Munster genitive of “teanga”.
Ulster has “teangaidh” in the nominative and “teangtha” in the genitive.
I guess Connachta has “teanga” for both nominative and genitive, as in the standard.

2.This query is related to the indirect particle ‘go’ and the relative pronoun ‘a’

I understand how both work generally speaking :

Dúirt sí go raibh sí ann. (indirect speech)

Seo í an bhean a raibh a mac san ospidéal. (indirect relative pronoun)

My query is in relation to ‘questions’. I have seen questions written using both the above particles :

Cén fáth go raibh sí ann?/ Cén fáth go ndúirt sí é?

Cén fáth a raibh sí ann?/ Cén fáth a ndúirt sí é?

Is this just a common error or can both particles be interchanged this way?

It’s not an error, it’s a matter of dialect. I think using “go” there is more Munster, and “a” is more Ulster and Connachta. (but your sentences are standardised Munster, because normally, they say “cad ina thaobh” to say “why” in Munster).


3.
Gender in identifying

Is í an Ghaeilge an t-ábhar is fearr liom.

The í is referring to ‘Gaeilge’, but why is it not written : Is é an Ghaeilge an t-ábhar is fearr liom , ‘e’ referring to ‘ábhar’.

The subject of the sentence is “an Ghaeilge”. “An t-ábhar is fearr liom” is the predicate. The pronoun after “is” must agree with the subject, so you’d have “is í an Ghaeilge….”

4.
I have seen ‘ag imirt iomána’ and ‘ag imirt iománaíochta’ written. I have been told ‘iomána’ is correct. Where would one use the genitive of the noun ‘iomanaíocht’ (iománaíochta) over the verbal noun?

I’d say you can say both, iomána is the genitive of “iomáint”. According to my dictionary, both “iomáint” and “iománaíocht” mean “hurling”.

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Posted: 09 November 2011 09:36 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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I checked in my Teach Yourself Irish book (which teaches the Munster dialect) and they say that teangan is the genitive form of teanga.

“Cad ‘na thaobh go raibh sí ann?” is the way I was taught to say it but I’m sure there are different dialects that say it differently.

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Posted: 09 November 2011 10:06 AM   Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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it but I’m sure there are different dialects that say it differently.

aye, in Ulster: cad chuighe a rabh sí ann? or tuighe a rabh sí ann?
in Connemara I guess: cén fáth a rabh sí ann?  (Brid, correct me if I’m wrong smile )

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Posted: 09 November 2011 07:06 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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“Teangan” is used as the genitive in spoken Munster Irish, but is written as “teanga”, in accordance with the Caighdeán.

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Posted: 09 November 2011 07:17 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Scríobh mé sin cheana féin.

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Posted: 10 November 2011 03:51 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Thank you for the help. Can I just ask for one further clarifacation on the point concerning ‘Go/a’ ?

Dialect aside, how should it be written in the standard? Cén fáth a raibh se ann or cén fáth go raibh sé ann?

I am finding this one very strange as to me ‘go’ and ‘a’ are very different particles and I am wondering how they came to mean the same thing in different dialects.

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Posted: 10 November 2011 04:01 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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I think the sentence with “a” is more standard. But there are people who write in standard Irish and that are influenced by Munster Irish so they may use “go” there.

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Posted: 10 November 2011 04:02 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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I guess they use “go” there by analogy with many conjunctions like “cionn is go”, “mar go”, “toisc go” etc.

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Posted: 11 November 2011 05:07 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Lughaidh - 10 November 2011 04:01 PM

I think the sentence with “a” is more standard. But there are people who write in standard Irish and that are influenced by Munster Irish so they may use “go” there.

I could be wrong, but I have the impression that “go” is sometimes also used with “cén fáth” in Connemara Irish (“cén fáth go bhfuil tú anseo?”), though not with other question words (“cén t-am a mbeidh tú ag imeacht?”).

I suppose this is a case of inter-dialectal “truailliú”...

However, if we are talking about the Standard, then yes, “a” seems to be the norm (see for instance, Graiméar Gaeilge na mBráithre Críostaí, under section 27).

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Posted: 13 November 2011 12:11 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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In terms of dialect, would ‘go’ be used in Munster Irish for question terms other than ‘Cén fáth’?
Cá fhad, for example.

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Posted: 13 November 2011 01:00 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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er ... “Cén fath” is not used in Munster Irish - it’s “Cad ina thaobh ...?” (“Cad ‘na thaobh ...?”)

I’ve never heard “Cá fhad ...?” before - Does that mean “How long”?

I was taught “An fada ...?” by a native speaker from Munster.

An fada a bhís i Sasana? - How long were you in England for?

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Posted: 13 November 2011 01:12 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Here is where confusion will arise. I was taught Irish in Waterford so I had Munster Irish as a child.

At school, we would have learned ‘cad ina thaobh’ and also ‘cén fáth’. We would have been exposed to ‘cén fáth’ in the textbooks and the written standard.

Because of this, I believe that my teachers interchanged ‘cén fáth’ and ‘cad ina thaobh’ daily, to the point where we never realised that one way was standatd and the other way was a dialect. We were certainly never told. We presumed that it was just two different ways to say the same thing.

Similarly, I would have seen ‘cén fáth go raibh’ written as often as I would have seen ’ cad ina thaobh go raibh’

Only later did I notice that ‘cad ina thaobh’ seemed to have vanised somewhat now that I was more exposed to the written standard and that ‘cén fáth a raibh’ seemed to have replace ‘go’ altogether.

To clarify my last question….and having learned Irish in Munster as a child I should know….but now I’m no longer certain of anything on this topic…..

In Munster Irish, can the ‘go’ replace ‘a’ for numerous question words/phrases or even in other types of sentences? It was mentioned that it had creeped into Connaucht, but only following ’ cén fáth’.

Or is this interchange of ‘go’ and ‘a’ (in the munster dialect) only used following ‘why’ ?

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Posted: 13 November 2011 01:15 PM   Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Cá fhad is (I believe) the standarised meaning of How Long

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