I wanted to translate a simple song into Gaeilge as practice, so I picked "You are my Sunshine." And this is what I got:

Is tú mo dhealramh na gréine,
Mo dhealramh na gréine amháin.
Cuireann tú sonas orm, nuair dath liath atá ar na spéartha.
Níl a fhíos agat choíche, a chuisle, cé mhéad gra atá agam ort.
Le do thoil, ní thabhair leat mo dhealramh na gréine.

Can anyone let me know if there are some translation errors or things that might sound better in a more idiomatic phrase?

Oh, and the words as Bearla are:
You are my sunshine,
My only sunshine,
You make me happy, when skies are gray.
You'll never know, dear, how much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away.

Go raibh maith agaibh!

I looked up sunshine in De Bhaldraithe's English-Irish Dictionary and found "soilbhreas" as one of the entries for "sunshine." I cross-checked in Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla and found that "soilbhreas" means "pleasantness, cheerfulness; joviality," etc. Perhaps "mo soilbhreas" would work in your translation since it would preserve the meter and rhythm of the original song?

(Message edited by rothaí on October 14, 2011)

I wouldn't have understood "dealramh na gréine" as sunshine.

http://www.potafocal.com/Search.aspx?Text=dealramh

Dealramh is appearance.

Normally just "Solas" (light) would be used. I like rothaí's suggestion but frankly I'd have had to look up the word too get the meaning!

Is tú mó sholas gréine,
M'aon solas gréine
Cuireann tú sonas orm nuair a bhíonn an spéir liath
Ní bheidh fhios agat choíche, a chuisle, méid mo ghrá duit
Impím ort gan mo sholas gréine a bhreith uaim!

In the traditional Irish songs the words "grian" and "gealach" alone are used in similar contexts. There is no need for "~shine" in the Irish version. If an Irish poet refers to "grian" it conjures up a summer blaze of heat and light.

This a good illustration of how what is said in one language may not be said at all in the other or a different image may be used.

People who speak different languages almost certainly have quite different views of life and the world. That's the joy of learning a second language. Witgenstein's dictum "The limits of my language are the limits of my world" comes to mind. Translation requires more than a dictionary unfortunately. It requires educated native-speaker competence in the target language and almost the same in the original language.

For us learners of Irish there is no alternative to total immersion in Irish until the existing traditional phrases are singing in our minds. Dubhghlas de hÍde's / Douglas Hyde's "Love-songs of Connacht" is the place to start.

Fíor dhuit.

http://www.futafata.com/Gaeilge/lirici/Is_tu_mo_Chiarog.pdf

Ceann deas ón aimsir seo!

Nach deas mar a dhéanann Tadhg scigmhagadh faoinár bhfaon-iarrachtaí. Mar sin féin caithfimid a bhfuil ann a fhoghlaim sula dtosaímid ag cruthú teanga nua beag beann ar a bhfuil ann faoi láthair.

Caithfidh mé an láithreán sin a léamh. Níorbh eol dom é bheith ann.

Go raibh maith agat.

quote:

If an Irish poet refers to "grian" it conjures up a summer blaze of heat and light

Saying to someone "you are my sunlight" is completely different than saying "you are my sunshine."

The lyrics to the song are not about blazing heat or light. It's about someone who makes another person happy - that's why the authors of the dictionary I referenced above use the word soilbhreas in the context of "sunshine" and "joyfulness." And both of the authors of those dictionaries are/were fluent Irish speakers, so I don't see how they have less credibility because they wrote excellent dictionaries - to argue such a point is merely ad hominem in nature and inappropriate.

So, although I am in the minority here and my thoughts run counter to the consensus (fior dhuit) already being formed here, I don't think it's a idea to rule out a good dictionary or two simply because they are dictionaries. It just doesn't seem logical to me.

But I also see Aonghus' point that "soilbhreas" may not be a widely understood word, and so there may be a more appropriate word.

Tá láithreán nua ar na bacáin ag Tadhg www.futafata.ie ach glacaim leis nach mbeidh an stuif sin imithe as radharc go hiomlán.

A Rothaí, I would never rule out a dictionary word, I am very fond of them myself. On the other hand, I am also found of following existing forms where possible. I avoided "soilbhreas" in the version I gave because it is unfamiliar to me and I wouldn't be confident of declining it properly.

quote:

to argue such a point is merely ad hominem in nature and inappropriate.

A Rothaí, I'm sorry to have given offence. I didn't mean to. Having spent sity years and more translating from English to Irish-- we use Irish every day -- I am only too aware of the pitfalls even with the best and most comprehensive dictionaries available. Think of all the amusement derived from mistranslations from other languages to English. I like the one about the 100 page specification which carried an error note pasted to the front cover: In this specification for "sliding doors" read "zip fasteners."

Thanks Jeaicín, and perhaps you would agree that in all your years of translation experience that you've probably seen thousands of correct translations using a dictionary, and that De Bhaldraithe's attempt may be one of them, but as Aonghus gently points out, may not be preferable. So, I'll stay on the sidelines for the rest of this thread, and look forward to seeing how Sériál's translations shapes up, since this song is one of my favorites and I'd like to be able to sing the Irish words to it also, that is, if it preserves the original meter and rhythm.

And thanks to you, Rothaí, for absolving me from malice aforethought.

I can't refrain from passing on a bit of gossip to you from the days when de Bhaldraithe's dictionary first appeared. As far as I remember De Bhaldraithe was not a native-speaker but one of the most enthusiastic scholars of his day.

De Bhaldraithe decided - or was forced by Government to decide - that his dictionary should provide equivalents for English words. Not an easy task since English terminology was increasing by the minute and Irish had been suppressed for almost 400 years if not more.

He admits in the Preface that there are many thousands of commonly used words in the Gaeltacht that were not included because they were not equivalents to English words. Hence if you look up "ice cream" in De Bhaldraithe you will find "uachtar oighir." Now you and I and everyone with the slightest knowledge of Irish knows that such words were never spoken and proboably never will. "Uachtar reoite" is the Irish for "ice cream" but it translates back to English as frozen cream. Poor De Bhaldraithe was a scholar doing the best he could considering the ambitions and objectives of those who employed him. He gives clear warning in the Preface that his objectives did not include giving "uachtar reoite" as well as "uachtar oighir". Ah me! What a pity.

Then there was another problem. The headwords were taken from Harrap's English to French dictionary and a huge number of English words used here in Ireland were forgotten about because they had not appeared in the Harrap's dictionary.

Then there was the question of the dialects. The native speakers weren't happy. In fact they regard De Bhaldraithe as one of the architects of An Caighdeán Oifigiúil The Official Standard -- which I support and use (!!) -- but draws a lot of (ill-founded?) criticism from contributors to forums such as this.

Suffice to say that De Bhaldraithe's dictionary was met with howls of protest and criticism when it first appeared. Although it is the only big English to Irish dictionary around it is used less and less nowadays by those who know Irish. Those learners who use it are unaware of its inadequacies. Modern terminology is supplied on www.focal.ie

Now Lambert Mc Kenna's dictionary is different. Although old-fashioned and limited it contains lots of good examples of usage. Thanks to digitalisation in our own time we can reverse both Ó Dónaill and Ó Duinnín and get hints as to how we might translate phrases from English to a kind of Irish that might be acceptable to good native speakers. It's a new world.

Believe me, Rothaí, translation to Irish is not easy. It's a minefield. It's becoming a bit easier to check for the correct usage of words in the various "corpuses" that are available nowadays but that takes time and bother.

Nevertheless our new Uachtarán should have little excuse for not addressing the nation in good Irish. I'm going to vote for the Gaeilgeoir.

Thank you all for your responces! :)

I do believe I like Rothaí's suggestion of "soilbhreas". I'm not familiar with it either, but it definately sounds better to me than "dealramh na gréine", and probably would make more sense. At least that is a word I can use until I learn a little more. I have found tha metaphors like this are very hard to translate from any language into any other. Metaphors are things that are specific usually to certain languages and cultures and it is hard to bridge that gap to another language and culture and still have the same meaning and emphasis.

I still remember being in Spanish class and for the first time a teacher explained to us why we should always use "estar" when saying someone is good, and not "ser". The meaning goes from being "The man is good" as in a good person, to "the man is good" as in he's good in bed. These slight nuances can be a minefield for beginers of any language.

Anyways...I appreciate the editing of some parts of the song, a Aonghuis...I find it heartening that not much of what I had changed, only a few phrases that needed tweeking.

Go raibh maith agaibh, arís!

Sériál, it's a relief to know that all of my antics about dictionaries above didn't sour your thoughts on proceeding forward with your translation. I took Jeaicín's words to heart above, and decided to search for a copy of Lambert McKenna's dictionary which I found at: http://openlibrary.org/books/OL7156043M/English-Irish_phrase_dictionary

I found this entry for sun in McKenna' dictionary:

SUN, the sun is setting. Tá an ghrian (f.2.) ag dul faoi. in the sun shine. fán ghréin; etc.

So, as gréin is an alternate spelling for grian (or vice-versa) I think Jeaicín's suggestion of "grian" is better than my suggestion of "soilbhreas." And "grian" also keeps the same meter or rhythm of the lyrics, which I think would be very important to being able to sing the song in Irish.

Jéaicín, thank you very much for your patience with me and taking the time to share your experience with translations. I was faintly aware of some issues with De Bhalrdraithe's dictionary and that's why I used the Foclóir Gaeilge-Béarla as a cross reference, which only gave me an Irish-to-English translation of "soilbhreas," not a conclusive agreement with De Bhaldraithe's entry.

A chairde, I would appreciate corrections to what I've written above, especially in my attempt in writing McKenna's entry for sun.

grian:
an ghrian (nominative and accusative)
solas na gréine (genitive)
fán ghréin / faoin ngréin / fén ngréin (old dative - not used now in standard language where "faoin ngrian" or "faoin ghrian" is suggested)

That's it - but fán ghréin would be fine in a song.

Jeaicín, Aonghus - thanks for your help in understanding the word grian. I did some research last evening at a nearby Princeton University Library by looking through their collection of dictionaries and found the following:

1. An English-Irish Dictionary, D. Foley 1855
sunshine: rolur gréine, roillriughadh gréine, dearradh gréine

2. Lane's Larger English-Irish Dictionary, T. O'Neill Lane, 1922.
sunshine: taithneamh na gréine, griandacht, grian (fig.)

3. An Irish English Dictionary, Dinneen 1904.
griandacht: sunshine, slendor.

I think it would be nice if the Irish words of each line in Sériál's translation maintained the same number of spoken or sung syllables, and for the first line "You are my sunshine" there are 5 syllables. So just wondering what thoughts Sériál, Jeaicín, Aonghus and others have about the first line in Irish. Does "Is tú mo ghrian" fit better than "Is tú mo fán ghréin" or maybe they both fit the same? I think it's interesting that Lane (above) indicates that "grian" can be used figuratively for sunshine, but Jeaicín knew and posted that already. . I only mean to ask above with my remarks, and not lead the choice.


(Message edited by rothaí on October 16, 2011)

"Is tú mo fán ghréin" doesn't really fit because it would translate back as "you are my under the sun"
I'd go with "Is tú mo ghrian"

BTW: I'm fairly sure the seanchló has mislead you and that

quote:

rolur gréine, roillriughadh gréine

is actually solus gréinse (now spelt solas) and soillsiughadh gréine (soilsiú gréine) and that Dineenn's second entry is splendo(u)r.

http://glg.csisdmz.ul.ie/index.php?find=Irish&wordSearched=283925&searchType=1

http://potafocal.com/Metasearch.aspx?Text=taitneamh&GotoID=focloirbeag

One more for the pot. Dineenn has "a beloved" as one of the meanings, so that if you don't mind mixing words you could use both "grian" & taitneamh (gréine)

Thanks Aonghus for the corrections above - I had a hard time making sense of the seanchló, especially the "s," which looked like an "r" to me.

They do look very similar. The r generally comes down further however:

r = r s = s

(Message edited by aonghus on October 16, 2011)

I've been thinking about a translation of Sériál's lines:

You are my sunshine,
My only sunshine,
You make me happy, when skies are gray.
You'll never know, dear, how much I love you.
Please don't take my sunshine away.

Before ever attempting another translation I have to say that Sériál assembled the ingredients very well and if I heard her speak those lines of her own translation I would recognise that I had heard them somewhere before and eventually I would recognise the origiinal song. So well done. It's a considerable achievement for a learner and must have cost you a lot of time and thought.

I'll admit, for all my experience, I can't translate the lines off the top of my head. First I'd like to look again at Tadhg Mac Dhonnagáin's song "Is tú mo chiaróg." I think that might help. The last verse of Dónall Óg might be worth a look also. Even Liúireach (?) Phádraig or St Patrick's Breastplate.

There's one important point to keep in mind: stress. Some words always remain unstressed in Irish. To put it another way you should not stress prepositions or the article in Irish. Neither should possessive adjectives be stressed. Beware when telling the story of the Three Bears. Say "MY porridge" in English but "mo leite-se" in Irish. Since "mo" cannot be stressed Irish expresses the emphasis differently. (How many broadcasters have fallen at that hurdle?)

So consider where the stress falls in "You are my sunshine / My only sunshine ..."
" ...... are ... sun ... shine ... onl ... sun ... shine ..." Now what ...?

There are so many constraints that it might be necessary to abandon some aspect of the original and introduce something quite different. This is not a legal document so in order to satisfy the beats of the melody, ensure that stress only falls on stressable syllables, avoid falling foul of Irish grammar or usage, and match the length of the lines we might have to consider a little poetic licence of our own. Who is to know if we end up with a new song in Irish that is quite different from the original.

An tAthair Peadar Ó Laoghaire, that great translator and prose writer, said take in the meaning to the English side of your mind and then express it from the Irish side ... Don't translate literally. It is not necessary to translate every word. Go by what is customary in the Irish.

Someone else when asked "What is poetry?" replied "Poetry is what is lost in translation!" Nevertheless many beautiful songs and poems have been re-created when translated so it is well worth the attempt.

It looks easy but it is not. I'm going to keep thinkin' ... Hopefully some one else will get it done before I have to put up or ...

The following might work, and of course subject to Sériál's review, for the first two lines since they incorporate the suggestions from Jéaicín and Aonghus above, and equally importantly, preserve the meter, stress and rhythm of the original song:

Is tú mo ghrian
mo ghrian amháin

(Message edited by rothaí on October 16, 2011)

Is maith liom sin!

Go raibh maith agaibh, a Aonghuis, a Rothaí, agus a Jeaicín!

It is true that if getting the stressed and unstressed syllables is important for keeping the original sound and tune of the original song, but also may be impossible to keep in translation. I had thought about making necessary alterations to the tune but try to keep it in the same key and using similar notes if it came down to that.

And for the first two lines, I definately do like what Rothaí came up with.
Is tú mo ghrian
Mo ghrian amháin

Those go with the tune very closely!

And I think with just a little tweeking, Aonghus's lines match up pretty well for the rest of it:
Cuireann tú sonas orm nuair a bhíonn an spéir liath
Ní bheidh fhios agat choíche, a chuisle, méid mo ghrá duit
Impím ort gan mo ghrian a bhreith uaim!

I just changed it to "mo ghrian" at the bottom line instead of what had been there earlier.


(Message edited by Sériál on October 17, 2011)