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The Daltaí Boards » General Discussion (Irish and English) » Gaeilge Pronunciation « Previous Next »

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óseanacháin
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Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 03:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

My main obstacle at the moment in learning Gaeilge is knowing how to pronounce what I am reading. Are there any kind of rules at all when it comes to the language? It would help me a graet deal.

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Dubhthach
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Username: Dubhthach

Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2010
Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 05:44 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post


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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4012
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 06:14 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The article "IPA for Irish" deals with phonology. And the symbols aren't explained so the article doesn't help. The symbols, when used in phonology, don't have the descriptive meaning they have in phonetics... (for instance, writing [bˠ] in Irish phonetics is nonsense).
Idem with the first article anyway. It will help you if you already know how to pronounce Irish :-D

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Rothaí
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Username: Rothaí

Post Number: 73
Registered: 04-2010


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 07:41 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

A óseanacháin, a chara,

Get yourself a copy of Foclóir Póca (Pocket Dictionary), or it larger-print version, Foclóir Scoile (School Dictionary)

http://www.litriocht.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=4454

This dictionary has both Irish-to-English and English-to-Irish translations, and you'll find the pronunciations to over 10,000 Irish words. No other dictionary comes even close to what this dictionary offers the beginner in regard to pronunciation. This dictionary also has an excellent phonetic preface, where a simplified version of the International Phonetic Alpabet is explained and used throughout the book for each Irish headword.

Please note that to date, only one word has been identified as containing a typographical error in Irish pronunciation - it's the word "anois" (now). That's a fairly remarkable feat to have only one error for any book or dictionary, so just take with a grain of salt any of the negative remarks made about the excellent dictionary for beginners.

(Message edited by rothaí on October 11, 2011)

Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4013
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 08:37 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It's better to hear native speakers if possible. Foclóir Póca has a phonological transcription which is quite abstract for non-linguists and sometimes it is artificial and doesn't correspond to any native pronunciation. For instance they have decided to transcribe all "oi" groups (in spelling) as the phoneme /o/ in phonology, which is simply wrong (basically it depends on the word and you can't guess, it may be /e/ or /i/ or /o/).

I always wondered why they didn't simply give pronunciations that exist, in that dictionary. It's simpler than giving theorical pronunciations...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Rothaí
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Username: Rothaí

Post Number: 75
Registered: 04-2010


Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 - 10:56 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

For instance they have decided to transcribe all "oi" groups (in spelling) as the phoneme /o/ in phonology, which is simply wrong (basically it depends on the word and you can't guess, it may be /e/ or /i/ or /o/).

That's not true - just take a look and you'll see how the "oi" sound is represented in different ways, as in these examples (oi sound shown in bold below):

doirnín o:
foighne ai
oidhe i:
oidhre ai
oirní o:
roimh i

Futhermore, the dictionary's phonetic preface contains a list of the members who contributed to the Irish pronunciations - that list reads like a who's who of experts in the Irish language.

Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.

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Lughaidh
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Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4014
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 07:23 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It doesn't mean the pronunciations do exist.
If I rememeber well, they also give "oideachas" as /od'əxəs/ and "anois" as /ənosˈ/ and many others like that.

And they only give one sort of slender n and one sort of slender l, as in Munster, but many pronunciations throughout the dictionary aren't Munster at all. It's like a blend of all dialects + mistakes and sometimes pronunciations that don't exist everywhere.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Faberm
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Username: Faberm

Post Number: 184
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 09:34 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

IF the guy who made Potafocal would put a tiny link with sound for each word (or a little sentence), it would all be over for the beginner. That is the big hurdle. He should do it in his own voice, whatever the dialect, official, whatever....and just do it. If someone wants something better then they can do it. Beginners MUST get something like this as we are scattered all over the world and don't have a chance in hxll of hearing a native speaker pronounce words in a dictionary. If I knew how to write him, I would do so today and I would offer money to help him with the project. This would help the explosion in learning Irish immensely.

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Rothaí
Member
Username: Rothaí

Post Number: 76
Registered: 04-2010


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 10:09 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

In regard to the beginner learning to pronounce the Irish words, maybe it would help to point out how the teachers within Daltaí - the very same group that sponsors this website - go about it. Since I live in New Jersey, I have had the opportunity to study under many of Daltaí's fine teachers, from the beginner to advanced intermediate level. The first thing the Daltaí teacher has you do is buy a copy of Foclóir Póca (or it's large-print version Foclóir Scoile). The next step is you start with Buntús Cainte, which is a beginner's book that contains excellent CD's to help the beginner learn basic Irish sentences and how to pronounce them. After a few semesters at the beginner level, the student is then ready for Learning Irish, which come with CD's that include a full-length pronunciation guide along with fully detailed chapters on pronunciation and grammar.

I can't think of a better way to learn Irish, outside of growing up in an Irish-speaking home, than the way the Daltaí teachers have you learn. By the way, all three books, Foclóir Póca, Buntús Cainte, and Learning Irish are available through this website (hint, hint).

On a related note, it should be abundantly clear to anyone learning a new language that there will be regional differences. For example, here in New Jersey, and points south, many (not all) of us pronounce "water" with two "r's", that is "war ter." It would be silly of us here in New Joisey to complain to the English dictionary makers that they don't include our particular way of pronouncing this word. Up north of here, say in Boston, they don't have any r's in the middle or ends of their words. As Cionadh, who's from the Boston area told us once, the Southeners stole all the "r's" from them and brought them down to Warshington. . Now, should the Bostonians or New Yorkers complain that their way of pronouncing water ("wata") is not in the dictionary? Of course not.

It really isn't that hard to learn the basics of Irish pronunciation - just get a hold of Foclóir Póca and memorize the six-page phonetic preface and start looking up the words in the dictionary. Later, when you're ready for post-doctoral studies in your favorite dialect, you can fine-tune your pronunciation as you see fit.

(Message edited by rothaí on October 12, 2011)

Fáilte roimh cheartúcháin, go raibh maith agaibh.

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11744
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 11:01 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

He should do it in his own voice, whatever the dialect, official, whatever....and just do it



Czech, with a Gaoth Dobhair accent. Michal is a very busy guy however, (MBM when he turns up on this board)

Try http://www.abair.tcd.ie/

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Faberm
Member
Username: Faberm

Post Number: 186
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 01:31 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I will look for MBM. What an accomplishment he has provided to the Irish-Learning world!

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Sériál
Member
Username: Sériál

Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 02:58 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Rosetta stone Irish has helped me immensely with pronunciation. They actually have 4-5 different speakers with slightly different ways of speaking that go over the words with you. It is a fairly expensive way to get those pronunciations, but it might be worth it to you.

But I will agree that RS doesn't give the pronunciations of words you just want to look up...it only follows the lesson words/sentences.

Any dictionary that offers 2-3 dialect pronunciations for each work would be worth it's weight in gold IMO. Unfortunately that does not exist for us yet as far as I know....

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4015
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 05:10 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

quote:

Czech, with a Gaoth Dobhair accent. Michal is a very busy guy however, (MBM when he turns up on this board)



Labhrann sé Gaeilg GhD? Go dti seo, achan uair a tchifinn rudai dar scriobh sé, bheadh sé iontach caighdeanach...

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Aonghus
Member
Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11745
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Wednesday, October 12, 2011 - 05:59 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Tá blas cineál Ultach aige, níor luaigh mé canúint! Píosa grinn a bhí i gceist leis an tagairt sin.

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Sériál
Member
Username: Sériál

Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2011 - 04:12 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Also, I found a phone ap that is like a pocket dictionary that is Gaeilge/Bearla. The free version gives you only words with their english/irish translation. There are not even any notes as to whether the words are masculine or feminine or what....but one interesting thing I found out about it, is that the paid version also gives audio for their words to help with pronunciation. I have not tried it, but I think it might be worth checking out if you want a 'talking' dictionary as Gaeilge. Also the paid version allows you to look up words using a connection to the internet which I suppose might give you more information on the word you are looking up.

Just thought you might want to know about this little gadget in case no one has seen it yet. It works with my droid powered phone, but I think it will work with any smartphone.

I hope this proves useful!
Slán

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Faberm
Member
Username: Faberm

Post Number: 188
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Thursday, October 13, 2011 - 11:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I have the Collins Dictionary App on my droid. It is great to be able to look things up whenever I want to. I think it was $ 10.00

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óseanacháin
Member
Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 29
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 01:44 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I have collins irish english pocket dictionary already, and I thinks it's really great. Just the pronunciation that's the problem... I'll be sure to check out all these suggestions! An app is a particularly good idea. Thanks for all the help and tips!

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 248
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 11:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Can one get Irish Before you know it on a droid yet?

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Macdara
Member
Username: Macdara

Post Number: 249
Registered: 09-2008
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 11:06 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Can one get Irish Before you know it on a droid yet?

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óseanacháin
Member
Username: óseanacháin

Post Number: 30
Registered: 08-2011
Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 08:09 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

It's interesting you ask that, Macdara, because I was wondering the same in terms of certain Irish apps... I'm a Droid-user.

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Antaine
Member
Username: Antaine

Post Number: 1543
Registered: 10-2004


Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 09:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

I have a sheet I made up for my students that I could send you. Just email me at aavalent@monmouth.edu

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Faberm
Member
Username: Faberm

Post Number: 189
Registered: 02-2009


Posted on Friday, October 14, 2011 - 10:21 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Hey...I'd appreciate any apps relevant to Irish/Irish learning as well. Would you be so kind as to post it here?

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Aonghus
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Username: Aonghus

Post Number: 11750
Registered: 08-2004


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 11:08 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post


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Seáinín
Member
Username: Seáinín

Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2011


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 03:08 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Another resource that I've loved has been the online Gaeilge course offered through Mango Languages. My local community library has subscribed to their service which makes it freely available to any library card holder, and it's accessible from any computer with an Internet connection. It has a very intuitive interface that presents the language in multiple modes, with visual and aural cues that really help comprehend meaning, syntax, grammar and even some dialect. It is supposedly based on Standard Irish, but the pronunciation is definitely Connacht. I tried studying Irish a couple of years ago and it was the pronunciation that stopped me. This online course has gotten me past that block.

Individuals can sign up, but it costs money. If you live within the United States you can go to their Library page (http://www.mangolanguages.com/libraries/) and search to find any libraries near you that have already subscribed. If there's one that you can belong to for free, you are golden.

Ádh mór oraibh!

Seáinín

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4016
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 03:24 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

That course (Mango) has been done by a guy and myself. The recordings, unfortunately, have not been done by Gaeltacht speakers despite all my protests.
Apart from that I think it's pretty effective, Mango is a very good way to learn languages.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Seáinín
Member
Username: Seáinín

Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2011


Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2011 - 06:29 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

An bhfuil tú ag magadh, a Lughaidh? Tá tú mo laoch! I LOVE that course and am eager to hear as much about it as you are willing to tell. If you would prefer to do that "offline", my email address is: seainin.macconraoi@gmail.com.

Seáinín

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Lughaidh
Member
Username: Lughaidh

Post Number: 4017
Registered: 01-2005


Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2011 - 06:31 am:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

Níl mé ag magadh :-)
I've sent an e-mail to you.

Learn Irish pronunciation here: http://loig.cheveau.ifrance.com/irish/irishsounds/irishsounds.html & http://fsii.gaeilge.org/

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Sériál
Member
Username: Sériál

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2011
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2011 - 04:28 pm:   Small TextLarge TextEdit PostPrint Post

The one I have that has a payable version with pronunciations is called Get the Focal. :)

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